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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 16:39:16

Just tidying up my Moonshae Notes and it struck me that the Earthmother is the perfect candidate for a primordial.

Even the 2nd edition campaign guide listed her as a quasi real deity.

Reading some history excepts that i think i got from a pdf about Sarifal and the LeShay history from WoTC (has quite a few useful dates in it). It strikes me that the Earthmother seems like a creature in the same vein as Othea; a conduit of sorts to the power of the planet Toril itself.

As a conduit she essentially just spews life out into the wider world (a primordial that births primordials). As such she created the leviathan, that unicorn and the pack.

Now just as a thought given this quote from the pdf i mentioned above

quote:
-17600 DR: The unchecked energy of the Sundering fractures the supercontinent of Merrouroboros, driving one continental plate westward and forming the Moonshae Islands in its wake. In this age, the Moonshaes consisted of hundreds of little islands, little more than volcanic peaks rising up abruptly out of the turbulent sea.

It sounds like at some point the earthmother was connected to Faerun like Othea, probably along the sword coast. The elves sundering caused massive amounts of damage to her physical form (which was probably that of an enormous volcano or caldera. What remains is the island chain devoid of life.

Slowly she heals herself and populates her new form with life (starting with leviathan in c-11000, then the unicorn in c-10000, and the pack in c-9000).

However something goes wrong (the arrival of the dwarves in c-8000 Dr perhaps, a non fey creature) and the warfare and bloody nature of the dwarves pollute her. The birth of her next child is delayed and to compound the damage in c-6000 the dwarves imprison a giant primordial (Grond Peaksmasher - son of Hiatea who i also have written into my cosmology as a primordial who later ascended to godhood).

So when the next child of the earthmother is born it is a horrific twisted evil being anathema to everything the Earthmother represents; it is Kazgoroth the Beast. A primordial being of pure chaos and destruction that seeks to end all life.

No point quoting to me about how it states the earthmother is an aspect of Chauntea, or Kazgoroth is an aspect of Malar. Such deific forms and terms are changed with each edition anyway so i'm just presenting an slight variation on the accepted lore.

It seems that all the spellcasters in the moonshae's were druids anyway so they derive their abilities from nature itself (i like to think they draw on the power of Toril itself) and so do not require the Earthmother to be a god in order to be a druid.

Perhaps those Moonwells were birthing pools for her primordial (and sometimes lesser fey) children. By corrupting a pool Bhaal allowed for Kazgoroth to be brought back to life after his first defeat/death.

I wonder if the Earthmother survives into 1370 DR. I havent read any of the novels so i dont know if they killed her off (although the appearance of Moonwells in 1371 that kidnap Ffolk and transport them to the Feywild suggests she is still alive).

If so i wonder what further children might be born from the Earthmother. We have good, and we have evil, but what about the balance in between (unless the leviathan and unicorn and the pack already represent neutrality, in which case we are missing good - and extreme good can be just as damaging as extreme evil).

Also does anyone know what Iyachtu Xvim was doing in the Moonshae Isles, should he not have been beneath Zhentil Keep?

quote:
- Led by Gauntather "the Dark Druid," priests of the Risen Cult of Bane arrive in the Moonshaes to spread fear among the Ffolk and fight against local druids with hired brigands and undead. Employing a little used portal known as the Cloven Stone, the Cult secretly infiltrates Caer Callidyrr seeking to abduct High King Tristan Kendrick from his throne room. Adventurers with support from the Harpers and the archmage Flamsterd prevent the abduction, but not before confronting and driving off an avatar of Iyachtu Xvim, "the Godson."

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 20:46:47

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Also does anyone know what Iyachtu Xvim was doing in the Moonshae Isles, should he not have been beneath Zhentil Keep?

quote:
- Led by Gauntather "the Dark Druid," priests of the Risen Cult of Bane arrive in the Moonshaes to spread fear among the Ffolk and fight against local druids with hired brigands and undead. Employing a little used portal known as the Cloven Stone, the Cult secretly infiltrates Caer Callidyrr seeking to abduct High King Tristan Kendrick from his throne room. Adventurers with support from the Harpers and the archmage Flamsterd prevent the abduction, but not before confronting and driving off an avatar of Iyachtu Xvim, "the Godson."

It says his avatar was in the Moonshaes, not Xvim himself.

I don't think we have any record of when Xvim wound up imprisoned, either -- only when he woke up.

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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 20:59:13

I think the last time the Earthmother was mentioned in 4e she was named a primal spirit

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 20:59:50

True but if he was a demigod then his avatar is himself (only one avatar allowed for demigods and they are bound to the material plane so if destroyed they can die).

Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 21:21:02

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

True but if he was a demigod then his avatar is himself (only one avatar allowed for demigods and they are bound to the material plane so if destroyed they can die).

No, the avatar is still different. Thus a demigod can be at two places at the same time.

Mostly once safe and sound in the seat of his power himself and his avatar out doing stuff. A demigod who loses his avatar has to consider carefully if he needs to be present somewhere else, as he would have to put himself in danger by leaving his seat of power for lack of an avatar

Also demigods can leave the prime, they are just the only deities allowed on the prime, thus it's better to stay there lest they become a snack for some more powerful deity who could reach them on the planes, but not on the prime

Edited by - Mirtek on 04 Mar 2014 21:22:20

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 01:28:39

The idea of the earthmother being a primordial is great. That Chauntea essentially took advantage of her weakness to usurp her worship could put a twist on things. On the idea of Kazgoroth being born of her..... what if Malar "raped" the primordial somehow? It could effectively tie the linkage of Kazgoroth and Malar that way. Similarly, the Moonshaes definitely have a tie to the feywild, so perhaps the unicorn is born of a dalliance with Eachthighern. The pack might be born of the primal wolf spirit that serves Rillifane Ralathil. The Leviathan, possibly Ulutiu (maybe he and Othea were on a break :-) ) or Deep Sashelas? Hell, there may be some secret involving the elves of the Sarifal and the earthmother.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1847 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 03:35:08

Once again this is why I love CK. All the good twists on the lore that just work. Good job on this Dazzler although the Moonwells being 'birthing pools' only works, IMHO, if those born of them are 'normal' size (nothing above Large size, and I'm not sure that works in every instance...the pools aren't that big, if memory serves...I could be wrong though).

@Mirtek: I agree about demigods and their place on the Prime. I would add (in addition to it being safer for them) that remaining on the Prime affords them a chance to increase the number of their worshipers because of direct interaction.

@Sleyvas: +100 for your comments. Malar raping her and the other Children born of dalliances with other beings works well. I would go with Deep Shashelas over Ulutiu, btw. It just seems to make more sense to me.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 08:30:39

Well the rules on demigods seem to change with each edition, and i dont like what they had or have for demigod status, it just never seemed to fit the lore.

Anyways, back to the Earthmother. I see no reason why the moonwells could not expand in exactly the same way as the human birth canal does.

When i originally read the bit about Malar releasing the Beast upon the Moonshaes it popped into my head that he physically released him by digging him out of the Earthmother.

It was just my thought that the Earthmother knew her child was disgusting and evil and so like Othea and Hart, she kept him imprisoned inside her.

Malar clawed his way into the earthmother to release Kazgoroth. I dont know why i didnt use primordial copulation as the reason for primordial children being born this time (despite it being my reasoning for how the giants were created from Othea). It really should be that way, perhaps since Grond Peaksmasher arrived earlier maybe it would be more appropriate if it was him that fathered Kazgoroth (not that it matters, Malar is a better fit thematically for his father).

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1847 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 09:44:59

Well, I just remembered that the Pools of Radiance were similar (if not identical) to the Moonwells and Tyranthraxus was able to reside within them (I'm assuming he was AT LEAST of Large size, likely larger). So, perhaps the Moonwells are larger than I originally thought, or perhaps some are larger than others. In fact, it makes sense to me that one of them is THE MOONWELL...the first and strongest of them. That one could be very large indeed.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 09:55:16

Well The Moonwell i think probably resides underwater (how else would leviathan be born).

It is entirely likely that it rests near the isle of Flamsterd and it is what Flamsterd is studying now that his tower and half the island is sunk beneath the waves.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2014 : 08:48:07

I'm wondering if Bhalla of Rashemen (and probably the Hordelands) is also another one of these Othea and Earthmother type primordial creatures tied deeply to the planet that gives birth to other primordial beings to populate the surface of Toril.

I would place her in the centre of what used to be the Lake of Mists (when it was the largest inland sea in Toril and covered much of the Hordelands) as a giant mountain island or chain of islands. It would be her that gave birth to the abundant number of primordial creatures in the region.

I have just had a thought as to how these primordial conduits of life might actually work, kind of inspired by the links to the feywild the Moonwells appear to have in 4e.

What if these primordial beings are a crossover point between Faerie and Toril. They combine the abundant energy of the planet Toril with the magic and life energy of Faerie to create beings of vast power that are almost exactly like Archfey but are tied to Toril itself and the material plane.

So at the bottom of these Moonwells one would actually find a portal of sorts to Faerie that you could use (if you knew how to activate it and it wasnt already in use giving birth to new life).

Anyway, just a random thought popping into my head that i will be using in my campaign.

I wonder if there was one of these primordial producing beings in the southern lands (at the moment i have Othea in the north, Earthmother in the west, Bhalla in the east, now i just need something in the south).

Maybe this Adama is the answer, but i havent really looked into southern lands much.

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7989 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2014 : 23:30:08

Tyranthraxus has no size. He‘s intangible, a noncorporeal spirit. True, he has some history of favouring posession of powerful Large-sized creatures (like dragons). But one passage in the Pool of Radiance (Ruins of Adventure) module specifies that Tyranthraxus was once imprisoned within a tiny vial of glowing liquid which was cast into the deeps of the Moonsea. Probably a vial of the common sort which priests use for holy water.

I might be mistaken, but I‘d thought Xvim was a “newer“ demigod, first appearing somewhere in Thay, sometime circa pre-ToT 1357DR.

Magical pools (such as the famed Pool of Radiance) do indeed resemble Moonwells. I would speculate that Moonwells are attuned to Earthmother/Chauntea, whereas Pools (in the Moonsea region and beyond) are detached from any particular divinity. The Pool of Radiance is, among other things, a portal to an unknown location on an unspecified Lower Plane - perhaps once controlled by a deity now long lost and forgotten, perhaps corrupted by a portion of Tyranthraxus‘s essence. I have placed various homebrew Pools throughout my Realms, dedicated to such deities as Eldath, Selûne, Silvanus, and even Milil.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Mar 2014 23:49:46

BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
382 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2014 : 04:57:01

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
It seems that all the spellcasters in the moonshae's were druids anyway so they derive their abilities from nature itself (i like to think they draw on the power of Toril itself) and so do not require the Earthmother to be a god in order to be a druid.

This is an interesting idea. If druids in the Moonshaes draw power from Toril itself, I guess that if they leave (to the mainland, for instance), they will still have access to their abilities, spells etc.

Until now, I was under the impression that the druids of the Moonshaes were very much tied to the land, and to the Moonshaes specifically. If they did travel, one possible way of retaining their connection with the Isles, and hence with the Earthmother, might be to bring something from there, such as a moss-covered rock, or a clump of lichen-bound earth.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2014 : 05:18:46

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I might be mistaken, but I‘d thought Xvim was a “newer“ demigod, first appearing somewhere in Thay, sometime circa pre-ToT 1357DR.

Xvim ruled Westgate for a time, starting in 710 DR. So he goes back at least that long -- though there isn't any mention of his divinity, at that time. His divine parentage is mentioned, but the references (in the old Westgate docs that I believe were web enhancements for Cloak & Dagger) don't refer to him as a deity.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2014 : 08:30:54

Well according to the various sources.

Xvim was a quasi power prior to 1367

He was destroyed during the time of troubles (it says his avatar was destroyed but as a quasi power he wasnt really a god at all. This so called destruction probably occured during or shortly after his escape from the moonshae isles after being confronted by Flamsterd.

His spirit was drawn to an ancient imprisonment circle beneath Zhentil Keep and he remained there for a decade as an incorporeal spirit whispering to the Zhents above trying to attract worshippers.

After a sacrificial ritual of cultists and kidnapped prisoners (which the pcs are supposed to interrupt - see the adventure "Buying Time" in the ruins of Zhentil Keep).

Following that ritual he ascended to a lesser deity (which means someone did interrupt the ritual because if successful he was supposed to become an intermediate deity).

As to who or what was responsible for the events. One would assume this imprisonments circle was either created by Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul to trap and bind primordials in their quest for godhood. Or it was meant to imprison Bane himself (maybe a kind of insurance created by Myrkul in case Bane should betray him on their quest for divinity).
If it was meant to imprison and entrap primordials then perhaps Cyric was responsible for trapping Xvim inside it as soon as the time of trouble ended (recognising that the son of Bane might inherit some of Banes power before he could steal it for himself). If it was meant to entrap Bane then it probably pulled on the nearest source of Bane it could find which was Xvim.

Anyway back to the Moonshaes. The idea of a separate nature source for druids and maybe even rangers is one of the few good ideas from 4e that i use. It never defined what the actual source is, but i see no reason why the planet itself cannot be a living being, if so then it has more than enough life energy to donate to nature inclined spellcasters.
And those druids to not necessarily need to work for the benefit of Toril. If they choose to destroy nature and make it devoid of life then eventually Toril would die and they would lose their spellcasting ability anyway.

But thats just personal theoretical attempts at explaining why druids and rangers who i dont have as devoted to one particular god (or indeed any gods at all) can still cast spells.

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