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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 16:22:33
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After the ToT Ao chained the power of deities on Toril to the number and fervor of their worshipers, i don't believe all the power of a deity comes from worship but surely since the ToT a large part of their power depends on it.
Now, what does this mean for deities of races that don't have large numbers of individuals (even not considering the fact a lot of those individuals may not even worship their racial deities)? Did Ao effectively "kill" the deities of the giant and draconic pantheon?
Let's look at the giants:
- Vaprak has no problems surviving with a lot of ogres and trolls around Toril and i can see him easily as a lesser power (instead of demipower like it's listed in Faiths & Pantheons);
- Grolantor, Surtr and Skoraeus too wouldn't have problems surviving since hill, fire and stone giants are among the most common of giant types and there are a fair number of them either scattered (hill giants) or with still one or two realms (stone giants), but in their case i see them depowered from intermediate (as in F&P) to lesser powers due to the low numbers of giants around Toril;
- Hiatea, Iallanis and Memnor i can't place, the first two at least have the worship of most of the giant-kin, but the third one, being some sort of giantish deity of death and mental prowess (???) is probably worshiped by all giant kinds during last rites or somesuch? In any case, at most even those three should be lesser powers given the low number of giant-kin (and the fact Hiatea, whom could have a power boost from the Moonshae's giant population, instead granted their worship to her son Grond Peaksmasher);
- Thrym, despite frost giants being common enough to be on the same place as Grolantor, Surtr and Skoraeus, faces a lot of competition from Auril all around Toril and it's either a fading lesser power or even a demipower by now (1370s);
- Stronmaus and Annam, they should be the most powerful in the Ordning, yet the cloud and storm giants are by far the rarest of giant kind and i don't think ogres, trolls, hill, fire and frost giants give a f**k about Annam so, what about them? Slumbering powers?
For dragons, without going into too much details, i think the only reference to any kind of draconic deity beside Tiamat and Bahamut (past the early eras of Toril when dragons were way more numerous) is Aurgloroasa being a worshiper of Null (and maybe someone worshiping Hlal? Unsure about this one) and that's it. Furthermore, how many true dragons are out there? 1000 max, being very generous? Would their worship be sufficient to keep a power alive even if they all worshiped the same deity (and i strongly doubt that even half the living dragons worship something other than themselves and their hoard)?
So what do you think? Am i right or completely wrong? Are the giant and draconic deities slumbering/fading in the post-ToT Realms? Does the worship of a dragon or giant count more than the worship of a human or elf? If yes, it's that enough to keep their deities up and does this mean each dragon and giant faithful that dies is a terrible blow to its deity?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 16:54:45
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I would think that the most important factor would be the percentage of beings from a particular race that offer worship. Otherwise, Gruumsh should be far more powerful than Corellon (just as an example), because there are a lot more orcs than elves.
The total number likely is a factor, but not as large a factor as the percentage.
At least, that is my speculation. |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 17:00:00
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| Also keep in mind for patronage. The ogres probably force their slaves and servants to worship their gods as well, to 'pay homage' to the "greater god" who made their victory possible. Dragon deities are also probably in a similar fashion worshiped by lesser races who more or less worship their dragon master like a god. Kobolds, goblins, and even humans will be willing to worship anything that a dragon might. |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 21:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would think that the most important factor would be the percentage of beings from a particular race that offer worship. Otherwise, Gruumsh should be far more powerful than Corellon (just as an example), because there are a lot more orcs than elves.
The total number likely is a factor, but not as large a factor as the percentage.
At least, that is my speculation.
Exactly my take too, that's why i'm wondering if in the new scheme of things established by the ToT all those dragon deities lucky to have a hundred worshipers are still alive or have fallen into comatose slumber in the Astral.
For the giants the situation is less critical (except for Annam and Stronmaus that have the same issue of the dragon deities) but they should be diminished nonetheless because there are a lot less giants than anything else and surely not many of them worship the racial pantheon.
So either this two pantheons are fading and/or already partly gone (like the civilizations that worship them) or giant/dragon worship counts more than humanoid/goblinoid worship. Or maybe they're exempt from Ao's rules (unlikely). |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 21:48:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Milith holder of HB8
Also keep in mind for patronage. The ogres probably force their slaves and servants to worship their gods as well, to 'pay homage' to the "greater god" who made their victory possible. Dragon deities are also probably in a similar fashion worshiped by lesser races who more or less worship their dragon master like a god. Kobolds, goblins, and even humans will be willing to worship anything that a dragon might.
It may be, but what dragons of FR do you know of that worship Null, Hlal or Task? I know only of Aurgloroasa and she has only dwarven zombies and skeletons as subjects (not much worship coming from mindless undeads).
Bahamut and Tiamat are very different in this regard, because they're still worshiped by (relatively) large numbers of true dragons and by a big assortment of a smattering of other races (humans, goblinoids and various draconian/reptilian minor races). |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 22:06:56
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Bear in mind that all dragons 'believe' and, to some degree, worship Null, Hlal and Task...even if their 'patron' deity is Bahamut, Tiamat or Chronepsis. Same goes for all other gods.
In terms of raw numbers you guys have a point...Gruumsh should be able to spank much of the Seldarine single handed. But maybe the fact that he has been defeated in the past as an effect on current worship? The orcs believed he got spanked by Corellon and, whether they realize it or not, just might subconsciously believe Corellon is more powerful than Gruumsh. Mayhap this has an effect.
It's been said many times that all (or 99.99%) people in the setting believe in and worship the gods. Part of deific power likely stems from belief in creation myths and other stories (Corellon spanking Gruumsh). So, in a way, even the orcs give Corellon power. Makes for good questions about deific propaganda machines if you think about it.
I know there are other factors that don't make sense (such as Lloth gaining in power despite losing worshipers). But that's my answer and I'm sticking to it.
Also, whose to say there aren't 1.2 billion dragons on another continent? I'm exaggerating, of course, but you get my point. There could be other giant, dragon, elven, etc. cultures we don't know of canonically.
Cheers. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 22:25:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
It may be, but what dragons of FR do you know of that worship Null, Hlal or Task? I know only of Aurgloroasa and she has only dwarven zombies and skeletons as subjects (not much worship coming from mindless undeads).
Bahamut and Tiamat are very different in this regard, because they're still worshiped by (relatively) large numbers of true dragons and by a big assortment of a smattering of other races (humans, goblinoids and various draconian/reptilian minor races).
Uh, lots of dragons. Null appears as the Guardian of the Lost and the Reaver. The Reaver aspect is worshiped by evil dragons, but as the Guardian, he ferries the souls of dead dragons to their afterlife and ensured that they were no longer troubled by their enemies.
And keep in mind that FR is a world of pagans. Most mortals don't have a favored; they tend to worship those who will help them. When you want economic success, you pray to Waukeen. When you want to be saved, you pray to a deity of safety or stealth. When you want to find love, you pray to Sune. When you want vengeance, you pray to Hoar.
Task I see as problematic, since he shares the same portfolio as Tiamat, but that might just make him a dead power or means he was weakened during the Times of Troubles. As for Hlal, well, she's a goddess of humor, tricks, and messages.
Again, why wouldn't they be worshiped?
EDIT
As for Corellon vs Gruumsh, we do know that not all Greater Powers are equal. And while Gruumsh does command a greater pantheon, he probably can't trust that pantheon, where as Corellon can. He would also need to attack Corellon on his home domain, which means that Corellon will have the advantage. And if that doesn't sound like much, keep in mind that within their seat of power, even a Lesser Power can perform works that rival a Greater Power. Imagine the level of difference that would exist amongst near equals.
Gruumsh would need more than just his pantheon, he'd probably require help from other deities, possibly help from within, and would want to weaken Corellon's mortal presence through wars and destruction to weaken him. All of which is difficult to pull off, especially when Corellon is countering those same plots and more than likely working his own (and even if he wasn't, Gruumsh would surely believe he would be). |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
Edited by - Milith holder of HB8 on 20 Feb 2014 22:34:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 00:48:32
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On Null, there would be quite a bit of dracoliches, ghost dragons, and even some vampiric dragons that would probably propitiate him.
You make a good point Demzer, and this may be why we saw all the gods "merging" in 4e is that the gods lied to us and the other gods were essentially killing off or being handed portfolios by these deities behind the scenes. Essentially, Ao may have forced certain draconic deities into starvation mode, and then the rage of dragons may have decimated what worship they had. Ironically, it was just before or after the ToT that both Bahamut and Tiamat actually began truly GROWING in power again (i.e. Bahamut got humans interested in him via the gem tree in Damara. Tiamat started gaining power via Gilgeam haters, plus she started some kind of trickery to steal worship from Entropy worshippers). Throw in that Tiamat is actually hinted at as possibly being Asgorath the world shaper in the second edition Draconomicon... and 4th edition lore states that Asgorath was a primordial who hurled an ice moon at Toril just before the twinning of the world.... was Ao's change having SOMETHING to do with Tiamat's and Bahamut's shenanigans and we just don't know it. Were those two "deities" some kind of "split off" from the original primordial that stayed with Toril or something when the world was twinned. Throw in that the second edition draconomicon talks about this exact idea of the dragon gods fading away due to lack of worship AND a sudden influx of power during the "Great Cycle".... really makes one wonder if there's not some tie ins with Shar's "Cycle of Night" and the "spellplague".
BELOW FROM SECOND EDITION DRACONOMICON CHAPTER 1, PAGES 2 & 3
The Book provides a fascinating origin myth relating to dragonkind. From a close reading of the text, it becomes obvious that Asgorath the World-Shaper is a
dragon. The implication #151;that a dragon created the universe, and that dragons were the first creatures to exist #151;is quite fascinating. A further point arises from the sentence
that reads, #147;And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it.#148; In the original Thorass, the word #147;breath #148;#151;normally used as a singular or uncountable noun in this context#151; has been given a plural suffix (#147;breaths#148;). Is this meant to imply that Asgorath is a multi-headed dragon?
The text is clearer when it comes to the #147;Spawn of Asgorath.#148; There can be no doubt that these creatures are red dragons. The following sentences hint that this religion holds the red dragon as the most important species of dragon. All others would #147;later depart from . . . purity.#148;
When the Renegade (#147;bahmat#148; in the original Thorass) duplicates the actions of Asgorath, the dragons that arise are #147;not of the pure red,#148; but rather #147;colored . . . like the unliving metals.#148; The implication here is obvious: The Spawn of the Renegade are the metallic#151; and primarily good-aligned-dragons. What the Book of the World contains is not only an origin myth of dragons#151; which makes it important enough in its own right#151; but also one of the few surviving evil-oriented origin myths. It is easy to speculate, based on this myth. The plural inflection of the word #147;breath#148; might be taken as implying multiple heads; the Thorass word for renegade is #147;bahmat.#148; It seems almost too close a correlation#151; can Asgorath be Tiamat and the Renegade be Bahamut?
ALSO FROM THE DRACONOMICON pg 30 COVERS EXACTLY YOUR QUANDARY
All dragon religions share one belief: That the purely draconic deities are somehow dependent for their very existence on the continued belief of their followers. Should a draconic deity lose all worshipers#151; in other words, if no living dragon continued to believe in that deity #151;he would cease to exist. (According to this belief, several of the members of the old draconic pantheon vanished from the multiverse centuries ago.)
This has a significant consequence for those few dragons who do still believe in draconic deities. These dragons feel that it#146;s vital for them to find new worshipers for
their gods. (They see the feared possibility that they might be the last faithful dragons in the world, and realize their deaths would mean nonexistence for their gods.)
Thus, these dragons are vigorous missionaries, trying to convert members of their species#151; and sometimes dragons of other species #151;to their faith.
Another interesting consequenceis that a dragon that follows a particularly unpopular god#151; where the odds are actually quite good that the dragon is the last worshiper of that god#151; realizes that its death also means oblivion for the god. Such a dragon would do whatever is necessary to stay alive #151;whether this involves surrender, dishonor, dishonesty, or even loss of its hoard.
A draconic myth known to most species talks of a #147;turning of the Great Cycle.#148; When that date#151; whenever it might be#151; arrives, any of the draconic deities still in existence will receive a huge influx of new power as believers flock back to them. Dragon philosophers love to quote dates for this #147;turning,#148; but there are as many proposed dates as there are philosophers, ranging from last Deepwinter to several millennia hence. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 10:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Bear in mind that all dragons 'believe' and, to some degree, worship Null, Hlal and Task...even if their 'patron' deity is Bahamut, Tiamat or Chronepsis. Same goes for all other gods.
In terms of raw numbers you guys have a point...Gruumsh should be able to spank much of the Seldarine single handed. But maybe the fact that he has been defeated in the past as an effect on current worship? The orcs believed he got spanked by Corellon and, whether they realize it or not, just might subconsciously believe Corellon is more powerful than Gruumsh. Mayhap this has an effect.
It's been said many times that all (or 99.99%) people in the setting believe in and worship the gods. Part of deific power likely stems from belief in creation myths and other stories (Corellon spanking Gruumsh). So, in a way, even the orcs give Corellon power. Makes for good questions about deific propaganda machines if you think about it.
I know there are other factors that don't make sense (such as Lloth gaining in power despite losing worshipers). But that's my answer and I'm sticking to it.
Also, whose to say there aren't 1.2 billion dragons on another continent? I'm exaggerating, of course, but you get my point. There could be other giant, dragon, elven, etc. cultures we don't know of canonically.
Cheers.
Oh i don't know about elves VS orcs, i think past a certain number it doesn't matter if it's 12 or 13 Mil of souls praying to you, also the Seldarine are a fully functional and supportive family while the orc pantheon is smaller and full of strife (6 deities of which 3 are would-be traitors). Also we have to keep in mind orcs in Faerun are very short lived, so Gruumsh and his pantheon costantly fluctuate from high points in which they can threaten the rest of the Torillian pantheon (just before orc hordes) to low points in which they have to lick their wounds (when the orc hordes inevitably get slaughtered). Many Arrows may change this over time BUT that's outside the scope of this thread, so please, no arguments over green skin rights here, thanks.
Back to dragons, even accepting for a moment that simple belief of existence and pagan worship carries the same gain for the deity of focused worship like that of someone that worship one deity above others (something i think it's very wrong), even if we think all Faerunian dragons believe in and paganly worship all dragon gods, are we going to say that a couple thousand dragon tops can sustain a whole pantheon of deities with lesser, intermediate and even greater powers? Does this mean that anyone can get to demipower status with the worship of some hundred souls? Why aren't all war heroes of Faerun demigods (or more, think Azoun IV boosted by the whole population of Cormyr, BAM instant greater power)?
It's funny you mention billions of dragons somewhere hidden in Toril, because i think that's something that was happening in the last days of 3e, but then it turned into dragonborn stuff (i'm referring to the GHotR year 1374 entry with the meteor storms of dragon/draconic eggs all over Faerun). |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 11:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Milith holder of HB8
Uh, lots of dragons. Null appears as the Guardian of the Lost and the Reaver. The Reaver aspect is worshiped by evil dragons, but as the Guardian, he ferries the souls of dead dragons to their afterlife and ensured that they were no longer troubled by their enemies.
And keep in mind that FR is a world of pagans. Most mortals don't have a favored; they tend to worship those who will help them. When you want economic success, you pray to Waukeen. When you want to be saved, you pray to a deity of safety or stealth. When you want to find love, you pray to Sune. When you want vengeance, you pray to Hoar.
Task I see as problematic, since he shares the same portfolio as Tiamat, but that might just make him a dead power or means he was weakened during the Times of Troubles. As for Hlal, well, she's a goddess of humor, tricks, and messages.
Again, why wouldn't they be worshiped?
Oh i know how worship works on Faerun, i'm highly skeptical about the fact a couple thousands of dragons believing in their deities (and with a number of priest or devoted-almost-monotheistic ones that you can count on one hand) can keep the pantheon alive and at it's supposed power level. If that's the case than either dragon worship counts much more than humanoid one or Azoun IV is enjoying the attentions of Sune and Sharess in Cynoure (with Cormyr having about 1300000 citizens and almost all of them honoring Azoun as a great war hero).
Also your previous point of patronage worship falls apart in the case of the more specialized dragon deities because a goblinoid surely doesn't care about where and how the soul of his draconic overlord will go once he's dead, or if the jokes and riddles he makes are clever or not, or if he sits on 23 billions or 25 billions coins.
Furthermore, we are bordering "forced" worship now and i really don't think that carries the same power of voluntary prayer. To elaborate, a dragon or giant may terrorize goblinoids underlings in worshiping Grolantor, Vaprak or Tiamat because those are the deities that gave him the strenght to enslave the goblinoid in the first place, but try to force a goblinoid into believing you are superior because you make clever riddles and i think the most you get is half-mouthed insults to Hlal in return.
That's the problem fro dragon and giant deities: low number of individuals of the corresponding race from which to get worship and almost absolute lack of circumstance in which someone other than a dragon or a giant may send a prayer their way (i mean, in setting, how many non-dragons do even know Null, Hlal and Task exist?). |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 11:25:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Null, there would be quite a bit of dracoliches, ghost dragons, and even some vampiric dragons that would probably propitiate him.
You make a good point Demzer, and this may be why we saw all the gods "merging" in 4e is that the gods lied to us and the other gods were essentially killing off or being handed portfolios by these deities behind the scenes. Essentially, Ao may have forced certain draconic deities into starvation mode, and then the rage of dragons may have decimated what worship they had. Ironically, it was just before or after the ToT that both Bahamut and Tiamat actually began truly GROWING in power again (i.e. Bahamut got humans interested in him via the gem tree in Damara. Tiamat started gaining power via Gilgeam haters, plus she started some kind of trickery to steal worship from Entropy worshippers). Throw in that Tiamat is actually hinted at as possibly being Asgorath the world shaper in the second edition Draconomicon... and 4th edition lore states that Asgorath was a primordial who hurled an ice moon at Toril just before the twinning of the world.... was Ao's change having SOMETHING to do with Tiamat's and Bahamut's shenanigans and we just don't know it. Were those two "deities" some kind of "split off" from the original primordial that stayed with Toril or something when the world was twinned. Throw in that the second edition draconomicon talks about this exact idea of the dragon gods fading away due to lack of worship AND a sudden influx of power during the "Great Cycle".... really makes one wonder if there's not some tie ins with Shar's "Cycle of Night" and the "spellplague".
Damn me for not checking all my sources before posting!
You rise a good point about undead dragons, but i sincerely don't know what kind of propaganda the Cult of the Dragon has fed to the dracoliches it creates (the vast majority of existing dracoliches are CotD ones) so i don't know if they revere Null or think they have definitely surpassed the need to worship greater entities, i mean, most evil dragons are megalomaniacs even while alive, once they become truly immortal with a bunch of other powers on the side i think they could care less about these supposed "deities" (kind of like i don't understand why liches should worship a god of liches, but i digress).
The sense of urgency and critical importance that passage of the Draconomicon conveys makes me think draconic deities are really slumbering or fading away. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 11:31:55
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Maybe the dragon deities original power level has something to do with their current power level.
Asgorath after all was a primordial (according to GHoTR) with enough power to hurl an entire moon at the planet (and give birth to an entirely new super powered species.
I dont think it has anything to do with it but it's a possibility that because Asgorath was a primordial with enough power to rival a greater deity before he became a god that he is represented in print as being a greater deity.
His actual deific power level may well be that of a demi/lesser power with him only being able to manifest one avatar and all the other rules that go with it. But the raw physical power of that avatar is so immense that greater gods would think twice before engaging him.
Oh yes, individual and personal power surely add up to the greater total of a divine being power level, but since the ToT supposedly imposed a bigger dependance on number and fervor of worshipers i'm wondering if nowadays even individually powerful deities need a discrete power base worshiping them to survive as deities. After all this may be the biggest downside to the otherwise "benefit-only" godhood and the reason why some individually powerful beings (mortal and planar alike) steer clear of ascension, they value their indipendence and don't want to be forced into "baby-sitting" mortals to keep their status up. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 20:13:11
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Other things affect a Gods power. The strength of there portofilios and weather they further those portofolios. Individual worshippers maybe worth more then other such as dragons being more valueable then a single human or Elves being individual more valuable then an individual orc.
Other things may factor in such as damned souls feeding power to Asmodeaus and other dark sources of power and maybe some good.
Also factor in that Toril is unlikely to be the only world offering such worshippers and even on Toril Faerun is not the only continent. The full extent of a Gods reach is unknown.
Also different Pantheons may have different standards, levels of required worship. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 11:30:54
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There are a couple possibilities that could play into it as well.
It is possible that servitor deities feed some of their power to their superior; for example, all of the giant deities (with the arguable exception of Memnor) serve Annam; even if his worship and propitiation dropped, he could maintain his status due to those under him (especially as two are greater gods themselves).
It may also be that some beings count for more than others; for example, one storm giant or gold dragon equals dozens or hundreds of humans. It could simply be a case of percentages; for example, virtually all giants propitiate Annam, regardless of breed, whereas no single human deity comes close to that percentage of humans. Per Giantcraft, virtually all giants venerate and propitiate all giant deities (seeing them through their own culture's lens; hill giants see Stronmaus as a great fisherman, frost giants see him as a great sailor, etc.). This is also one reason I see Memnor as a great liar; it's the only way to maintain faith from giants outside his favored cloud giants. Much the same holds for dragons, although I think the pantheon is more fragmented. The good dragons venerate or worship the good and neutral deities, while the evil ones do the same with the neutral and evil deities, and neutral ones worship some cross section of them all. All dragons worship Asgorath (Io) and Zorquan.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 14:11:58
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| to make it simpler.... hit dice could factor into worship energy (thus a powerful monster or a powerful PC/NPC are more "divine energy providing" worshippers than a 1 hd creature). Such things might be exponential to some kind of degree (maybe hit die times square root of hit die... such that a 9 hit dice creature gives 27 times more energy than a 1 hit die... or a 16 hit die creature gives 64 times the energy........ or it could be full blown exponential, such that a 16 hit die creature counts as 256 regulars.... or it could be cubed even, such that a 16 hit die creature counts for 4096 1 hit die creatures... so a dragon could equate to a small town... a med/small giant tribe of 40 giants would be like a whole town or a small city). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 16:24:43
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
There are a couple possibilities that could play into it as well.
It is possible that servitor deities feed some of their power to their superior; for example, all of the giant deities (with the arguable exception of Memnor) serve Annam; even if his worship and propitiation dropped, he could maintain his status due to those under him (especially as two are greater gods themselves).
It may also be that some beings count for more than others; for example, one storm giant or gold dragon equals dozens or hundreds of humans. It could simply be a case of percentages; for example, virtually all giants propitiate Annam, regardless of breed, whereas no single human deity comes close to that percentage of humans. Per Giantcraft, virtually all giants venerate and propitiate all giant deities (seeing them through their own culture's lens; hill giants see Stronmaus as a great fisherman, frost giants see him as a great sailor, etc.). This is also one reason I see Memnor as a great liar; it's the only way to maintain faith from giants outside his favored cloud giants.
Interesting points, although i think it's incorrect to say that all giants revere Annam and the whole pantheon, especially among the kin that far outnumber the "true" giant population (it would be like saying all humans revere both Tyr and Bane and Ilmater and Shar). The point about servitor deities is a good one i had overlooked, and i can see a whole mess of "worship power" going back and forth between the various giant deities (something like from Grond Peaksmasher to Hiatea, from Hiatea, Stronmaus, Iallanis, Skoraeus, Grolantor, Surtr and Thrym to Annam but in differing amounts and from the slumbering Annam back to Stronmaus, the appointed head of the pantheon until the day Ostoria is reborn and Annam comes back from wherever he went).
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Much the same holds for dragons, although I think the pantheon is more fragmented. The good dragons venerate or worship the good and neutral deities, while the evil ones do the same with the neutral and evil deities, and neutral ones worship some cross section of them all. All dragons worship Asgorath (Io) and Zorquan.
With this i disagree. The 2e Draconomicon makes it clear the old draconic deities are almost gone with a vast majority of dragons not giving any worship whatsoever and with a good number of those that do worship some kind of divine being giving their worship to members of the Faerunian pantheon (like Bane or Tyr and Torm).
Thoughts on the different "weight" of worship in the next post. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 16:29:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
to make it simpler.... hit dice could factor into worship energy (thus a powerful monster or a powerful PC/NPC are more "divine energy providing" worshippers than a 1 hd creature). Such things might be exponential to some kind of degree (maybe hit die times square root of hit die... such that a 9 hit dice creature gives 27 times more energy than a 1 hit die... or a 16 hit die creature gives 64 times the energy........ or it could be full blown exponential, such that a 16 hit die creature counts as 256 regulars.... or it could be cubed even, such that a 16 hit die creature counts for 4096 1 hit die creatures... so a dragon could equate to a small town... a med/small giant tribe of 40 giants would be like a whole town or a small city).
Yeah, even without going so far as to pin it down to a specific multiplier i can easily see how the worship of a vastly powerful being as a great wyrm might count more than that of a human commoner. Also this interpretation makes things even more interesting as it's a double-edged sword: giant and draconic deities may survive with way less worshipers than humanoid ones, but each worshiper lost is a grievous blow dealt to the deity in question. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 18:13:38
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| good point, so the giant deities might be more willing to provide aid to even their lay worshippers. Giants who are wounded and left for dead may actually have a servitor of the deity that shows up to heal them back from death. Invaders of giant clans may find an avenging giant spirit being allowed to return to the world to take revenge. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 23:20:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Interesting points, although i think it's incorrect to say that all giants revere Annam and the whole pantheon, especially among the kin that far outnumber the "true" giant population (it would be like saying all humans revere both Tyr and Bane and Ilmater and Shar). The point about servitor deities is a good one i had overlooked, and i can see a whole mess of "worship power" going back and forth between the various giant deities (something like from Grond Peaksmasher to Hiatea, from Hiatea, Stronmaus, Iallanis, Skoraeus, Grolantor, Surtr and Thrym to Annam but in differing amounts and from the slumbering Annam back to Stronmaus, the appointed head of the pantheon until the day Ostoria is reborn and Annam comes back from wherever he went).
It isn't that simple; the kin consider themselves part of the larger giantish community, whereas the giants do not consider them part of the larger community. This specifically applies to the Hartsvale area, though, and doesn't necessarily apply farther afield, where there is less contact between the various giantish races. Veneration and propitiation are very important, if not as important as outright worship, but that's how most evil gods keep their power. A fervent "Bane take you!" from an angry farmer is just as important as a merchant uttering a fervent prayer to Chauntea to bless the food he's about to buy. Similarly, offering a small sacrifice to Umberlee or Talos to keep their displeasure from visiting you on a journey is as important as offering a small sacrifice to Silvanus asking for protection on the journey. The giants would do much the same thing, regardless of race, to the giantish gods (asking Stronmaus for good rain for crops, propitiation to Thrym to avoid unseasonable winter storms, asking for Skoraeus's blessing in crafts, etc.). As the head of the whole pantheon, Annam would receive prayers/veneration/propitiation for pretty much anything relevant to giant life, as well as specifically for fertility, magic, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
With this i disagree. The 2e Draconomicon makes it clear the old draconic deities are almost gone with a vast majority of dragons not giving any worship whatsoever and with a good number of those that do worship some kind of divine being giving their worship to members of the Faerunian pantheon (like Bane or Tyr and Torm).
The Draconomicon says "many," not "most" or "vast majority." It is designed to be as narrow or wide as a DM wishes. It also says "As a general rule, the more powerful the species in question, the fewer members feel the need to worship gods. (This might be changing in the Realms, however.)" This tells me that in the post-ToT world, the dragon gods will make a big push to shore up their faith, converting dragons from human deities back to themselves, convincing the powerful to venerate them, etc. In fact, the description of Null in Cult of the Dragon pretty much describes that very thing. One thing I'd note is that even if large numbers of dragons do not outright worship the dragon deities, I do think they would still venerate or propitiate them. Looking again at Null's entry in Cult of the Dragon, it states that dragons who've lost a loved mate or offspring may make offerings to him to protect their spirit. In addition, it says many dragons of all species and alignments travel to his temples shortly before their deaths (basically to die, as in the legend of elephants' graveyards).
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 02:28:51
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| All this is mute in the 5e realms. The numbers of worshippers may not effect a Gods power, or may be just a one factor in a vast unmeasurable by mortal multitude of possible power sources. We just don't know. What we do know is the Pantheon/s are changing so are the rules. |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 06:22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
to make it simpler.... hit dice could factor into worship energy (thus a powerful monster or a powerful PC/NPC are more "divine energy providing" worshippers than a 1 hd creature). Such things might be exponential to some kind of degree (maybe hit die times square root of hit die... such that a 9 hit dice creature gives 27 times more energy than a 1 hit die... or a 16 hit die creature gives 64 times the energy........ or it could be full blown exponential, such that a 16 hit die creature counts as 256 regulars.... or it could be cubed even, such that a 16 hit die creature counts for 4096 1 hit die creatures... so a dragon could equate to a small town... a med/small giant tribe of 40 giants would be like a whole town or a small city).
This was very much same i thought it might be. This system would also explain why Lolth has so much power. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 09:44:47
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
It isn't that simple; the kin consider themselves part of the larger giantish community, whereas the giants do not consider them part of the larger community. This specifically applies to the Hartsvale area, though, and doesn't necessarily apply farther afield, where there is less contact between the various giantish races. Veneration and propitiation are very important, if not as important as outright worship, but that's how most evil gods keep their power. A fervent "Bane take you!" from an angry farmer is just as important as a merchant uttering a fervent prayer to Chauntea to bless the food he's about to buy. Similarly, offering a small sacrifice to Umberlee or Talos to keep their displeasure from visiting you on a journey is as important as offering a small sacrifice to Silvanus asking for protection on the journey. The giants would do much the same thing, regardless of race, to the giantish gods (asking Stronmaus for good rain for crops, propitiation to Thrym to avoid unseasonable winter storms, asking for Skoraeus's blessing in crafts, etc.). As the head of the whole pantheon, Annam would receive prayers/veneration/propitiation for pretty much anything relevant to giant life, as well as specifically for fertility, magic, etc.
Well, i disagree on this interpretation, but since it's just that, interpretation, i don't feel the need to argue further.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
The Draconomicon says "many," not "most" or "vast majority." It is designed to be as narrow or wide as a DM wishes. It also says "As a general rule, the more powerful the species in question, the fewer members feel the need to worship gods. (This might be changing in the Realms, however.)" This tells me that in the post-ToT world, the dragon gods will make a big push to shore up their faith, converting dragons from human deities back to themselves, convincing the powerful to venerate them, etc. In fact, the description of Null in Cult of the Dragon pretty much describes that very thing. One thing I'd note is that even if large numbers of dragons do not outright worship the dragon deities, I do think they would still venerate or propitiate them. Looking again at Null's entry in Cult of the Dragon, it states that dragons who've lost a loved mate or offspring may make offerings to him to protect their spirit. In addition, it says many dragons of all species and alignments travel to his temples shortly before their deaths (basically to die, as in the legend of elephants' graveyards).
Jeff
Draconomicon (2e) states, on pages 29-30, that the "vast majority" abandoned worship of the old gods and then, after centuries, "some" went back to worshiping the draconic pantheon while "more" turned to worship Faerunian deities.
I'll concede it's vague enough to be open to interpretation and i'll admit i've read (and re-read) it in the best way to confirm my interpretation (that of the draconic powers waning) but since we ae again in "interpretation ground" i think i'll keep mine and work with it in my campaign. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2015 : 02:25:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
All this is mute in the 5e realms. The numbers of worshippers may not effect a Gods power, or may be just a one factor in a vast unmeasurable by mortal multitude of possible power sources. We just don't know. What we do know is the Pantheon/s are changing so are the rules.
Actually, we don't know the factors that play into a deity's power. If we look at the model that was depicted of Ao in several of the sourcebooks, he has absolute, unequivocal, and uncontestable power as the overlord of the gods. Ed has made it clear that Ao was not his creation, but that doesn't make Ao any less real in the commercial Realms.
What we do know is that Ao had the power to make and break gods at whim. Based on my reading of the tea leaves, Ao's manifestation to mortals is pretty much like the apocalypse - it doesn't happen very often. So, the "destruction" or "creation" of the deities in 4E could very well have been in Ao's plan - since he can bring a god back whenever he wants to do so. (C.f: Torm).
Ao tied worship of mortals to the gods power in the novels to make the deities invest themselves in their worshippers. This, again as I dig through my notes of correspondences with TSR folks back in the day, was largely to support the 2nd edition "Specialty Priests" notion, and carried forward into 3rd edition to explain the special powers a cleric receives in worshipping one deity over another.
And, as others have pointed out, most people worship many deities in a given day/week/month/life. The only thing that was made clear is that mortal worship alone cannot resurrect a deity (or Bane would never have died). It is also clear that mortal worship (or fan interest) may cause a deity to regain power or be "resurrected."
Ao is the ultimate plot device - someone more powerful than almost-omnipotent, almost-omnipresent, extremely powerful beings that have power over the mortals. While I mostly enjoyed The Avatar Series, especially "Prince of Lies," mortals shouldn't be caught up in the machinations of the gods. If you collect all of the text written in all of the published books about Ao and print them together, I don't think you'd have 10 pages. Ao is and was meant to be a means of explaining how the deities work to the mortals, and to provide literary "authenticity" to game mechanics. While I doubt we'll see Ao in any new works, this doesn't mean he is gone, or that he no longer asserts absolute control over the pantheon. We just don't know anything about him anymore, because he hasn't felt a need to manifest. |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Giant/Dragon deities and Ao's post ToT rules
