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thenightgaunt
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 02:04:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Cbad285
As far as Thuragar goes, I thought Arrabar was Chondath territory?
Yep. You're right there. But it was caravans from Sespech to Chondath (Arrabar in particular) that were getting hit.
quote:
Now I don't know much about the political backing for Sespech, but from what I understand they must have some ties to Shaar or Thay or both in order to hold their ground against Chondath. I thought the canal would be able to be built at the narrow point of the Nagaflow but that doesn't seem to be the case. Someone made me aware that the current in the Nagaflow at that point in the river would be flowing north into the Reach. In order for a lock to push the water you would need the strength of the current, correct?
Nope. The current may be headed north towards the Reach, but that wouldn't change anything. Trade on a canal is 2-way. The traditional method is to build a sturdy stone path along either side of the canal. Then beasts of burden like horses or oxen pull the barges against the current. Going the other way they just drift down river. While still being based on animal labor, the barges can still haul a ton of cargo compared to carts or animals alone. So no need to cut through the wood. At the most, you create a simple lock on either end of the canal to control the currents and reduce the forces the animals have to pull against.
Also, depending on which body of water is higher, the canal may mess up the currents.
quote:
So the PC's need to control the profits from the canal and allowing the land owners propriety here isn't very good for business. So unless you can manipulate Thuragar, which being a merchant himself is unlikely without serious leverage (or magic). The other option is to remove him from power by backing Chondath, for instance. For the PC's here, this involves aiding the reclaiming of Sespech by cutting off trade to Sespech from the Reach as well as taking out Mimph and Nimepth. (Both of which could be very profitable moves in of themselves)
Now mind you, Thuragar is no slouch. A 12th level fighter with 10,000 men just at Fort Arran? But what favors might he call to protect his land outside of his own forces? And of his forces, what does his troop numbers look like? what friends of his might show up to protect their interests, outside of the Redwizards.
Per the 2nd ed book on the Vilhon Reach it's only 1000 men at Fort Arran.
It's an interesting point really. The issue with Thuragar is that he's not only a merchant but a very successful former mercenary captain. So he won't be easily knocked down. You can try to remove him from power but the theives' guild in his capital has been trying to do that for years and failing. The way I look at it, Thurgar is essentially a dynamic leader trying to organize Sespech into a nation. It's hinted at but essentially the other lords of the Sespech cities may be his former adventuring party. The 3rd Ed. FR campaign setting will be your friend here. Mimph is ruled by a lvl 14 ranger and a lvl 16 helmite cleric both of whom served with Thuragar. Elbulder is run by a lvl 16 wizard with similar links to Thuragar. So either way Thuragar should be run as a powerful, clever, and very dangerous adversary due to his military experience and his success conquering the region and holding it against Chondath. A former adventurer who, with his party, conquered a nation.
As for any Thay or Shaar connections. Nope. Not in the official canon as far as I know. I could be wrong though. I think the watercourse books are the only time they try to claim that the Thayans have any presence (never read them) and it's contrary to everything written about the region before it. I guess it's canon now, but it's stupid canon (IMO). For the most part it seems that any of those sort who show up and make noise get greased real fast. Also Thuragar is LN, and his old pals are NG, LN, and NG, so they'd likely make deals but would probably fight any intrusions by Thay or Shaar.
Meanwhile, Chondath is an empire in decline. While Chondath is right in the middle of the Emerald Enclave's territory, Sespech is on the edge and the resources from the canal (wood from forests not protected by elves) will likely turn Sespech into a powerhouse and give them reason to expand into the Golden Plains and the Lake of Steam (fewer druids that way). So I'd say the better bet would be backing Sespech. Every description of Chondath in the books focuses on terms like "decline" and "former glory". Plus they'll likely have the backing of Hlondath with that wedding (great target if your PCs decide to back Chondath. Kill the groom and frame Sespech).
The real money in the canal will be from either tolls, or trade via it. Innarlith would be a major target as it's not the most structured of merchant towns and it's poised to get hit with a ton of growth. A few assassinations and power plays in the right places and PC's could take over the town mafia style (if it's a neutral to evil campaign). Then you've got control of the canal trade on the southern end. A much safer proposition than going up against Thuragar.
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Edited by - thenightgaunt on 26 Feb 2014 02:11:13 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 03:12:05
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I can't back it up with facts because there really aren't any, but the Nagaflow is a long river which runs largely through plains, and the northern section you're worried about drains from a rather large lake. That's led me to assume it's a wide, slow-flowing river, so there's no problem with vessels sailing upstream - it'll be easy if they have good winds, and if not they can probably still tack. Only in dire situations, one might resort to animal traction. There's almost no building required in the Nagaflow itself - the river is navigable. Maybe some dredging, but that's it. Locks are only needed for the small stretch between the Nagaflow and the Lake of Steam (the Canal itself). The Watercouse Trilogy supports this interpretation - nowhere is the Canal treated as being anything but that particular stretch.
Sespech is pretty fierce in its independence, and its population is half that of Chondath. Any invasion plan from Chondath would immediately be seen as a major threat by Nimpeth, Hlondeth, Reth and even Hlath, which canonically is "kind of" independent of Chondath. Those cities and Realms are all "targets" of Arrabar, which tends to unite them in case of Chondathian expansion. In this particular case, Innarlith might be worried as well, and the whole rest of Toril would be watching.
The Red Wizards have been established as owning Enclaves in both Arrabar and Hlath, as well as the Innarlan one seen in the Watercourse Trilogy. So it's safe to say they've put their fingers in that pie already, which really makes a lot of sense in my opinion.
The Band of Iron, Thuragar's old adventuring band / mercenary group, is definitely in charge of Sespech. The mayors of Elbulder and Mimph and the dwarf general who commands the Fort Arran garrison are all former members. I don't think the half-elf admiral is stated to be as well, though. Also, keep in mind Mimph is a Sespechian city, and not independent. Not sure if everyone had seen that, there seemed to be some confusion.
Sespech is most certainly no friend of the Red Wizards. Of all the nations in the region, I'd say they're the least likely to make a deal with them, due to two things: the population is highly distrustful of magic, and Thuragar's rule is all about fierce independence and a good deal of personal power - the guy's an "old-school" king (well, baron). Even his alliance with Hlondeth, which is a much more obvious one to make, is a matter of enormous contempt in the court (and for himself). Mostly due to his daughter having to endure a marriage to a yuan-ti family and, of course, the issue of succession (what kind of children do yuan-ti and humans make anyway - I figured that one for my campaign, but it's something to think about).
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Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 26 Feb 2014 03:13:53 |
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thenightgaunt
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 03:42:50
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Mapolq:
Good point about the Nagaflow. If it’s a slow river then yeah, no worries. Though animal traction might be rather common but still secondary to wind power for getting ships upriver. The locks, as you mentioned, would be another matter though.
I didn’t know that the Red Wizards in the watercourse books were operating out of Innarlith. That makes a ton of sense now. I also missed the bit with the general at Fort Arran being a former party member as well. Good catch.
I imagine that Hlondeth could bring a lot to the table to make that marriage less distasteful though. I agree though that the succession issue would be Thragar’s biggest worry. Anyone who could promise him some magical way of ensuring that his line would remain, at least, human looking would get a lot of support from him. Or the reverse, ensuring that his grandchild was a snake in order to sour relations between him and his inlaws.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 04:28:28
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Toward the tail-end of 2e, the Zhents were also making a bid for power around the Lake of Steam. They have a power-base in Kzelter and I think they either made a play for, or were planning to make a play on, Mintar, IIRC.
If they wanted Mintar for a Lake of Steam port (which gives them access to the southern water-trade), I would think they would be extremely interested in getting their hands on Innarlith (especially if they know their rivals - the Red Wizards - were already doing so).
You have some other cool groups around that area as well, like the Rundeen and The Twisted Rune, who would probably also be interested in getting a toe-hold on the the illicit activities in the region.
What I said about Iriaebor earlier would be true of Innarlith as well - it would become a hotbed of intrigue, and a great place to run a Cloak & Dagger style campaign.
*Edited for typos |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2014 14:35:37 |
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
161 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 07:10:15
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| Okay. Well this changes my perspective of sespech. I guess then the real question here is, who owns the lands surrounding the bend in the southern portion of the nagaflow. And what information is there on innarlith |
"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
Edited by - Cbad285 on 26 Feb 2014 07:11:17 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 11:49:56
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Mintar (not Mintarn, which is an island off the Sword Coast) is a Zhent-allied stronghold led by Teldorn Darkhope, or at least it was (I'm under the impression something happened there, but can't find it). Their power extends to the northwest as far as Kzelter, but Yeshpek, Saelmur, etc. are independent. The Zhents would no doubt be very interested in Mintar with the Canal being built, though (for one's campaign one could argue that was the reason for Teldorn's takeover, but the dates don't match unless the Zhents could see a few years ahead - Mintar was conquered in 1362 DR, the Canal started being seriously considered in 1364 DR... also back then many Zhents were Cyricists, while Teldorn was a Xvimlar).
In my campaign, the Rundeen is making a heavy move there - they have a PC on their side who actually became the Ransar of Innarlith. Unfortunately for them, the guy's also a Tel'Teukiira, so he's playing his own game as well. The Twisted Rune didn't show up, but then again the Twisted Rune never shows up - no one ever knows they're pulling the strings, even after it's too late...
Sespech is said to have some control of the Golden Plains, while Innarlith definitely has the town of Kurrsh under its grasp and is building the whole Canal to the Nagaflow. The river is a natural border for the two states, but ultimately, like most frontier areas in the Realms, the land belongs to whoever controls it. In my campaign, Sespech managed to consolidate its power in the two main crossings of the Nagaflow, east and west of the Canal, while Innarlith owns everything south of it (though most of it is actually wilderness, in both cases). The area just northwest of the Canal's exit on the Nagaflow has a particular interest in my campaign - no one has managed to get a foothold there because after being kicked out of Innarlith, Marek Rymüt established himself there. He lives in his pocket plane, but uses the area as a staging ground for his "special creatures" (he's a notable experimenter in the book - I'd say he's an Enchanter who knows a lot of Transmutation as well) in order to spoil his fellow Red Wizards' plans. Most definitely non-canon, by the way. I just found Marek Rymüt got taken down too easily in the Watercourse Trilogy, so I changed that (the guy's probably at least near the 20th level of wizard, as he's canonically able to create a pocket plane, which was a 9th level spell, Genesis, in 3E).
Edit: I forgot to mention the Se'Sehen yuan-ti who have been admitted into the Rundeen have been helping the Consurtium engineer a secret pact with Hlondeth, capitalising on the Se'sehen ancestry of the Extaminos and the potential benefits the Canal could offer both parties. The Rundeen have lent a fair amount of money to Innarlith's Senate and is planning to be the leading trading company to operate in and around the new waterway. Both Tashalar and Hlondeth have discarded any plans for military adventures in the area, preferring to reap the mercantile opportunities instead. Nimpeth, on the other hand, is negotiating with Innarlith to secure their support for charging a small toll on their end of the Nagaflow (Vassara river in my campaign), plus some commercial concessions. They're wary of openly supporting Sespech, and the relations between these realms are not so friendly. As I put it, the only thing Nimpeth and Mimph can agree on is that Arrabar should burn. This is all non-canon, by the way, but heavily built on canon.
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Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 26 Feb 2014 17:40:25 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 18:06:30
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| I also have to note that if you're a real sticker to canon, the House of Serpents trilogy unfortunately makes some otherwise interesting points moot, though it'll also add a few new ideas and elaborate on others (I will avoid spoilers). I grabbed that trilogy just because it was set somewhere I wanted to read about (as I usually do with novels), and even though I didn't think it was bad, I don't like the way Lisa Smedman took some things, at all. I think it was mostly a case of "tying up all the loose ends and leaving very, very few new ones", which makes the place feel a bit... boring, after the fact. So what I say here is almost guaranteed to ignore the events of that trilogy. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 26 Feb 2014 18:11:54 |
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Connecting Sea of Fallen Stars to the Oceans
