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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 03:44:38
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I was just wondering, with all of the examples of cultures somehow 'transplanted' into the Realms (Egyptian culture being the most prominent) why has there not been a transplant of the Roman Empire?
I've actually noticed that most worlds don't have a 'Roman' counterpart in them. There are certainly ancient empires that were very powerful, and I think Greyhawk's 'Great Kingdom' may have had some similarities, but no TRUE Roman-style empires. The only example I can think of with a direct parallel is Hollow World's Milenian Empire. That one doesn't really count to me because the Hollow World cultures were 'dead' cultures.
I'm thinking the main reason for this lack is it's a campaign is considered more adaptable/interesting with many kingdoms vying for influence. I don't necessarily think this to be true, btw. I think a great campaign could be centered on the expansion of a mighty empire such as Rome. Or trying to stave off its decline. The various kingdoms could still vie for influence (I mean politics is politics whether you have a strong Imperial government or a smaller one).
I'm just wondering, with the Realms having SO MANY real world parallels, why no Rome?
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 03:54:17
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| To drive this point home a bit further. Rome existed in one form or another for over 2,000 years. In all that time you would think some sort of transmigration would have occurred. It just seems 'logical' to me that some folks would have discovered the Realms and crossed over. I'm not saying that Rome would have to conquer any of the Realms...just that some influence should have been felt (and a similar culture developed). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 04:56:16
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Chessenta has much akin to ancient Greece and Rome...much indeed.
As for a Roman-like empire/culture...I would say that a City-State like Rome would have been a nice addition too. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 06:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
To drive this point home a bit further. Rome existed in one form or another for over 2,000 years. In all that time you would think some sort of transmigration would have occurred. It just seems 'logical' to me that some folks would have discovered the Realms and crossed over. I'm not saying that Rome would have to conquer any of the Realms...just that some influence should have been felt (and a similar culture developed).
If there were no portals in Roman areas, then it would be equally logical that no one had made it over.
It's also not unreasonable to assume that only individuals or small groups made it over, and either died out or were subsumed by larger groups.
Lastly, if you want a fantasy setting with a Roman feel, read the Codex Alera books by Jim Butcher. The series has a lot of Roman references, even explicit references to Romans. And it's mentioned that they are not native to that world, and came from elsewhere... Part of the premise of the setting is that the humans of Alera are descendants of the lost Ninth Roman Legion. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 16:45:03
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quote:
Lastly, if you want a fantasy setting with a Roman feel, read the Codex Alera books by Jim Butcher. The series has a lot of Roman references, even explicit references to Romans. And it's mentioned that they are not native to that world, and came from elsewhere... Part of the premise of the setting is that the humans of Alera are descendants of the lost Ninth Roman Legion.
Thanks for this reference I will have to look into it.
My point of the post really centers on the fact that just about every other 'Earth' culture has been represented in the Realms and it just strikes me as odd that there was no Romanesque culture included. I think it would have made for a great addition.
And now that I think about it...Mystara had the Empire of Thyatis which was pretty much Rome. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 19:45:52
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Well in a recent 'Ask Ed' reply, THO stated that Ed never intended for the realms to have any truly transplanted cultures but when other realms authors began to do so anyway he just kind of went with it.
As as aside I believe Pathfinder's Jistka Imperium is a Roman analogue...or at the very least they spoke Latin (not a lot has been written about it yet). |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 21:48:07
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| I always saw Thyatis as more Byzantine Greek than Roman...especially when you place Karameikos right next door! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 22:28:20
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A lot of Earth gods crossed over to the Realms in the period from the beginning of the Roman downturn (300's AD) to the end of the Dark Ages/Early Middle Ages (1000ish AD). I assume that means you might have seen some gates functioning during this time. One could also argue that this is the time during which the last of the magical races/creatures left Earth for the Realms as well ("I am the last dragon") right before the Realms were truly forgotten.
Rome, although pagan through most of its history, is often seen as the power that 'drove out' much of the magical things, people, cultures by conquest, Romanization, and execution (ask the Celts/Druids etc). When most people think of Rome, they think of it as a non-magical rationalist empire (even though that is far from true in many ways) - the first such nation state in the western world and an important step on the road to modern western 'enlightenment'. So, Rome isn't necessarily a good model for a Realms culture.
However, I think the real issue with a lack of Roman crossover material is that other cultures (the Mulhorandi) that were directly transplanted were targeted for that purpose rather than just 'leaking' into the Realms. And, as Hashimashadoo points out, a lot of the 'Earth Analog' cultures were just added by TSR fiat not by Ed, so weren't the result of actual Earth to Realms human passage as much as they were just waved into existence whole cloth.
Oh, and if you likes you your Romans, then Wooly is right, read Jim Butcher. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 22:54:19
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People often compare Chondath to Rome, and I agree that it's probably the closest "analogue" we have, but it's not very derivative. We do have a place called "Academia Vilhonus" in there, but that's about it for latin-esque names. The analogy is more in how Chondathan (Jhaamdathan) culture spread through the Inner Sea and beyond (and displaced, killed or subsumed others, like elves and the Talfiric) much like Roman culture did in the Mediterranean and Europe. Also also some government structures and leader-types, I guess. Arrabar is kinda "Imperial Rome" while Shamph sounds a bit like the Roman Republic, but it's a long stretch compared to other analogues.
I *think* most of us prefer it that way, usually. |
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Edited by - Mapolq on 14 Feb 2014 22:59:33 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 22:57:23
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I think the hallmark of the Romans was sheer pragmatism. They had dirty armies, dirty politics, a lot of hands-on industry (and although we still admire masterworks of Roman engineering and construction, we do not see all the quick-n-dirty shortcuts which were workable or economical yet too cheap and sloppy to survive the centuries). Rome needed bread and circuses. Rome was always hungry for more resources to plunder (especially silver and steel). Rome eventually became decadent and unsustainable, cumbersomely oversized, and vulnerable to invaders.
Sounds a lot like Netheril to me, just without magic. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 23:08:57
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You do have a point, Ayrik - but Netheril (from the Silver Age I guess) became a collection of Archwizard domains, not centralised at all. It was a nation, but not really an empire. So analogies go to a certain point, and I really think it's better that way.
PS. I was never an advocate for removing Earth-analogues though, and I'd support bringing them back. While it's not my favourite thing, I think there's very little Realmslore that really deserves/deserved to be scrapped altogether. And they actually managed to make me smile with the hints of actual Imaskari abduction of Earth peoples in 3e to help explain the more obvious pastiches in-Realms. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 23:22:44
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@Dalor: Byzantine Greek may actually be a closer analogue than Rome for Thayatis...but there are some definite similarities to Rome.
@Ayrik/Maploq: There are no 'true' analogues to Rome in the Realms. There are great empires (Mulhorand, Raumathar, Unther, Narfell, Imaskar, and I will include Netheril in the mix) but no Romanesque empires. I'll have to look at the source material for similarities in Chondath, I never made that connection before myself. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 14 Feb 2014 23:23:28 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 00:10:15
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Rome lasted 2000 years, well still exists as far as that goes.
Quick link though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire
Appears toes indicate that the Empire quote:
The 500-year-old Roman Republic, which preceded it, had been destabilized through a series of civil wars. Several events marked the transition from Republic to Empire, including Julius Caesar's appointment as perpetual dictator (44 BC); the Battle of Actium (2 September 31 BC); and the granting of the honorific Augustus to Octavian by the Roman Senate (16 January 27 BC).
With the end being maybe quote:
Christians rose to power in the 4th century, during which time a system of dual rule was developed in the Latin West and Greek East. After the collapse of central government in the West in the 5th century, the eastern half of the Roman Empire continued as what would later be known as the Byzantine Empire.
Which of course would be sometime 400+ C.E. , this is hardly 2,000 years. If you add on the Holy Roman Empire you can of course extend life of the reduced Empire, however it was not really Rome. You can even add the 500 years or so of the Republic that proceeded the Empire. Even then you might be hard pressed to get to the 2,000 year number.
As for Empires that have existed in the Realms, some Elven empires have a longer life then that.
Looking for a feel of a Swords only Empire would not tend to fit well in a Sword and Spell World. Roman deities and clerics did little to nothing in how Rome was built.
Edit: Format correction. |
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Edited by - Kentinal on 15 Feb 2014 00:11:48 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 00:40:05
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The 2000 years figure is often quoted as being the time between the establishment of the Republic and the fall of Constantinople. It was more like 1900 years, I think, but the distinction there isn't the issue. If you count the early Roman monarchy and the HRE, that's a few centuries on top of that, too. Remember "Byzantine" is a modern term, those people considered themselves to be the Roman Empire.
Concerning religion... true enough, deities and magic play a more practical role in society in the Realms. But I wouldn't underestimate religion's power to shape society in our world - that's another subject that probably doesn't belong here, though. |
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Edited by - Mapolq on 15 Feb 2014 00:47:47 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 00:56:53
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| Raumathar was "somewhat" Romanesque, minus the gladiatorial combat. We have no indications whether they did or did not take slaves, but given the cultures surrounding them, I'd imagine that they took slaves. They had some technological/construction skills, enhanced further by magic. They did raise some beautifully sculpted buildings, and I'd bet that they learned some things from the Mulhorandi engineers who occupied their territories. They likely advanced by conquering the surrounding tribal cultures and integrating them into their own empire. Its not a perfect fit, but it does kind of widget its way there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 00:17:39
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From pg.2 of Power & Pantheons...
quote:
...and then several human migrations bought mature societies and religious faiths to the Realms: an influx from a land of desert governed by the seasonal pulse of a mighty river; then an influx from two neighboring lands - one a land of glory and empire, the other a patchwork of citystates and bold philosophies - who's pantheons reflected, but did not precisely duplicate each other; followed by folk from a more rugged land tied to nature, the sea, and the warrior history of its dozen-king greater god.
Accent, mine. There's your Romans... as well as your Greeks and Celts, which explains perfectly where we got some of our Grecco-Roman and Celtic deities.
And happens to be the basis of my theoretical proto-Chondathan 'Dathite' racial group; a group that was taken by the Imaskari first, but proved to be too much of a handful: that first group broke-free and escaped, into what would later become Chessenta and Chondath, where they mixed with the proto-Tethyrian (Talfiric?) peoples. This last part is all conjecture, but based upon all available canon (because we DO have the occasional weird mention of Greek and Roman powers in the Realms). |
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2014 00:19:14 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 04:27:59
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| WOOT Nice find Markus. It's not exactly the kind of transplant I was looking for (an actual society resembling Rome) but at least I can now believe that some were brought into the Realms. Care to share some info on your Dathites? I'm assuming that they predominantly merged with Chessentan racial stock (since Romans became so enamoured of Grecian culture in the RW)? Oh, and what examples of Roman deities? Or are you just going with the Greco-Chessentan gods? (Roman gods closely mirrored Greek and all that). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 19:26:06
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That IS a nice find Markustay! I'd never noticed that before!
You know they really should do something official with all this in 5E given all these Earth/Realms crossover canon occurrences, but I've been saying that for a while... |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 19:46:21
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| I'm with you Kris, I actually like real-world crossovers (though I've never played myself in a game...not quite my thing, tbh). But I like the idea of Earth cultures existing in the Realms. One of the many projects I'm working on atm is a world I call Aeden. It stems from the Hollow World campaign in which Ka the Preserver has preserved cultures that were 'destroyed' throughout history. In my world...he has staked a claim of an entire star system/crystal sphere for this purpose (I actually don't use crystal spheres in my homebrew). The entire system is teaming with life because of his work (he is my homebrew Highgod similar to Ao in the Realms). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 20:36:01
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Yup, I think they handled themselves masterfully with that one. I didn't have the precise reference anymore, thanks Markus!
As for theories, I like to go with the Romans having interloped later (post-Imaskar definitely) and intermingled with their Earth-cousins in Chessenta and with the Jhaamdathans (who'd seem to be autoctonous to the Realms, unless you want to strecth time a lot - they were around about ten thousand years back).
I say that because the timeline of the Imaskari Empire allows for time to have flowed basically at the same rate in Earth and the Realms if late 1300s = late 1900s on Earth (with a few caveats). Egyptians were already around when the Imaskari started kidnapping people form other planes, and so were Mesopotamians (though they were in late neolithic societies at the start of that period). As for Greeks, I consider they've kidnapped Bronze Age Helladics and Minoans before their empire fell, and those people were usually settled at their Western borders and formed Chessenta. That doesn't explain the Cimbar/Akanax analogy with Athens/Sparta (that comes much later in greek history, about 1500-2000 years after Imaskar would've fallen in the Realms), but that'd be going too far I think. The Romans, Celts and Germans/Nordics would've made it on their own, though, or through some other, as of yet unspecified forced migration. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
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Edited by - Mapolq on 17 Feb 2014 20:49:43 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 22:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Oh, and what examples of Roman deities? Or are you just going with the Greco-Chessentan gods? (Roman gods closely mirrored Greek and all that).
Of the modern FR gods, Silvanus. He's lumped in with the Celtic gods in D&D for some reason, despite being Roman (the Romans used the name for some Celtic deities, but then, they called Odin Mercury and Thor Zeus, so...).
Jeff |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 22:13:00
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My idea for the 'Dathite' group was a fairly large assortment of early Roman and Greek peoples (including Spartans), who, much like the Mulan, are a Realms ethnicity, in that it is a blended group of several Earth groups (two in this case; the Mulan were actually three... although two were from the same geographic area, just different time periods) AND native Torillians.
I assume that that was their first attempt, and they captured a lot of Mediterranean peoples (maybe even Minoans), and transplanted them onto the farms of the western provinces (now The Old Empires). Eventually those people were able contact their gods, and several 'came over' to Toril (I assume this is when Sune {Venus} arrived, amongst others). The deities granted their priests spells, and the slaves were able to escape west, into what would became Chessenta and Chondath (driving the indigenous Turami folk further west, into what became Turmish). This may have taken a few centuries, and as I said, the slaves were from different regions and time periods, so they were NOT 'Roman' or 'Greek', or anything else from earth - by then they were simply 'Dathites' (a word derived from the Imaskari 'Dath-itnu', or "to work"). I want to make that clear - that although we do indeed have derivative cultures in The Realms, they are derivative, as in 'based upon', not exactly the same thing as those original earth folk. The Dathites - Now Chondathans - were a mixed lot, and are more-so now, just as the Mulan are. They have just as much Torillian blood in them now as they do anything else. They have may have kept a few of their off-worlder customs, through the years, but most have changed, and are almost unrecognizable as such.
As for their gods - Aphrodite/Venus became Sune. Kronos gave his portfolio to Mystra and faded from memory. Dionysius is still around, but he is only an Exarch of Ilamter at this point (IIRC). Apollo may or may not be Lathander... there has to be some reason Aumantor got ousted for a time. Tyche got split into Bashaba and Tymora, etc, etc. There is actually a (canon) record of all the Greek and Roman gods (along with most other pantheons) in the lost Imaskarei vaults - just read through Desert of Desolation. Even the Norse pantheon is mentioned. The Imaskari studied their mistakes, and did not repeat them the second time when the brought-over the Egyptians, Babylonians, & Sumerians (and probably Persians as well - we see a very big resemblance to that culture in Semphar).
As for the Celts... who knows? That may have been Imaskari tinkering again, or someone else for all we know. Or it just may have been a case of intermittent gates allowing groups through on-and-off over the centuries (something that has happened a LOT, on Toril, BTW). I think they mixed with the very early aboriginal western Faerūnian people (Talfir?), and their culture slowly became the Tethens over the centuries. There is probably very little 'Celtic blood' left in a modern-day Thethyrian, but their culture moved out into the Moonshae isles early-enough where enough of it still survives, undisturbed by all the cross-cultural pollination on the mainland. I assume they came into the Realms right around the time of the rise of Nethril, around when Ioulaum created the first flying enclave and Illusk was founded... because thats around the time of 'The Great Flood' (Earth Mythos) and would be a great time for a very large Earth diaspora into The Realms.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2014 22:19:18 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 05:33:31
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The way I handle it in my Realms is simple. There's so much history within the ages of the world that at some point somewhere in Faerun there were Romanesque/Greek people and clerics of such gods.
My take is they just did not last long and assimilated rather quickly in with whatever natives were around when they appeared. Either their gods abandoned them for the Faerunian deities to take over worship or there were conflicts. Or even both. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 16:05:58
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| Aurora could be Roman |
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Why No Roman Transplants?
