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Originally posted by George Krashos

I'm a fan of the concept that there were multiple regional pantheons with either separate, smaller deities or larger, current deities being worshipped with different names. One only has to read "Prayers of the Faithful" to see that Ed subscribes to the notion that gods in the Realms have multiple names. I would attribute some to rituals of worship, but others to the fact that deities swallowed up and subsumed a host of smaller deities when the Faerunian pantheon was established. So, in my Realms, the proto-humans who lived north of the great forests of Cormanthyr (and were responsible for building the Citadel of the Raven) worshipped Irmider who would later become a part of Silvanus, Enthandas as Selune, Arnaglaerus as Gond, etc. etc.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I think the fascination is more with Netheril.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

I can add that the extant fiction realmslore (specifically the Realms of the Dragons short story anthologies - there were two as I recall) showcase stories back in the Time of Dragons (i.e. -30,000 DR to -25,000 DR) which portray dragon-ruled realms with sophisticated human inhabitants/subjects. Now, I don't think that these short stories quite approached the subject matter appropriately within the context of the dates/times they are set in, or dealt with the topic in a uniform and lore-friendly fashion (neither did some of the stories in Realms of the Arcane for that matter), but the information provided shows to me that in small, localised areas of the Realms (and I stress the "small" aspect in this, which IMO is the only way this works) there were pockets of humans who were "civilised" by their dragon masters, experimented on to become better and smarter slaves/subjects (i.e. selective breeding programs or magical augmentation) and exposed to the Art so that when the dragons were gone (and in some cases I can see that it would have been their erstwhile slaves/subjects who caused them to "go") they retained a level of society/culture that translated into the first human settlements of note in the Realms. Some of those latched onto the giants next and were in turn being "raised up" by a different superior, more sophisticated social/cultural grouping but some just went it alone and from a small base, over time developed into the proto-human realms, of which we actually know very little.

This is how I see places like Thaeravel coming into being; the civilisation that existed in the modern Ride and built the Citadel of the Raven; the humans who built Urdrath of the Horsemen near Asbravn; the humans who built Ironfang Keep; etc. Of course, many of them burned brightly only for a short period and then lapsed back into barbarism as they continued to be preyed on by the dragons, the giants, the goblin kin and (yes) the elves and dwarves. I see the Proud People (the collective term for elves and dwarves in the Realms) actively working against humans and human realms in the earliest days of Realms history, as they competed for resources, living space and that most coveted of all things ... power.

The earliest history of humankind in the Realms remains a big mystery. Part of me wishes that it was mapped out and detailed. Another part of me welcomes the inherent mystery that remains, which allows tales to be woven and explanations given for this or that. The Realms has always thrived on "wiggle room". Over several decades, I have been extremely guilty of filling in a lot of historical gaps and taking up a decent chunk of wiggle room. Then again, lore always builds on lore. It's a balancing act to be sure, but there is still a huge expanse of Realms history, especially as it applies to humans, that people can play in. Threads like this show how healthy that can be, and moreover give creative sparks an opportunity to flare brightly. I enjoy all of these types of discussions. I don't always agree with what I read (just what is the fascination with the Gur anyway?!?), but it always gets me thinking.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by George Krashos

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I think the fascination is more with Netheril.

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I agree. I've always been fascinated by the place also. But in historical terms, Netheril is a pup. It's just the first significant human civilisation that has received realmslore love.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

True, but its also the most ancient human civilisation that we have any significant quantity of lore about (even if the quality is suspect).

Being a fan of real world history (well English history anyway) im naturally drawn to the ancient realms of Faerun (which is why I like Mulhorand and Unther as well).

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Originally posted by Markustay

Concerning the 'ancient Gur migrations' (much of which is pure speculation) - The Moonsea wasn't always there. At least, not in the form it is now. Like everything else with the words 'moon' or 'star' in it (geographically), it was created by a tearfall (meteor strike). Thus, migrations by an early horse-riding people across the north-east should have been fairly simple (except, perhaps, for the fact there was a glacier there... but that could explain the ice hunters). The Rus are the equivalent of our RW Eurasian Nomads. This could explain why some Netherese look like Cimmerians.

My own theory concerning the Moonsea is that it is a region that has suffered several tearfalls over countless milenia, some minor, some major. The greatest of these probably created the Moonsea as we know it today (a shallow strike, driving west-to-east), but before that, it may have been a series of lakes, or even just a river basin (with dozens of small rivers coming together over the region, to eventually coalesce into the Mighty Lis).

The Sea of Fallen Stars was also no-existant (in its present state) during the time of the Giant Empires, but I feel that was formed earlier on, in primordial times (prehisory in Earth terms). Giant History sort of ends around the time of its formation. Giant (and draconc) history make no mention of the Moonsea either... although its original name was the 'Dragon Sea'. Make of that what you will.

If we lump-in the 4e/Sundering lore, perhaps during that first, great 'Sundering' - when the world was ripped apart - there were massive tearfalls everywhere for some time (leftover bits?), or maybe, it was the sundering itself, and modern scholars are misinterpreting the events written in ancient giantish and Draconic histories (and perhaps the Elven and Dwarven histories... but I have another set of theories regarding the Dwarves and giants).

I wish I could say I find it amusing when artists draw 'historic' maps of FR that look very much like the modern layout... but I don't. Faerûn should be unrecognizable some 15-30,000 year ago.


EDIT: Looking back at the joke I made in the 1st paragraph... its entirely possible that I hit upon something. Considering the nature (and name!) of the 'Forgotten Realms', this would have been around the same time that Ed states our world and Toril had 'better connections'. The proto-Gur may have been tribes of Earth Horse nomads that wandered over. I had used some of this in my other musings, postulating that the old Finnish myths actually took place in the Gur lands, some 7-10,000 years ago. Those myths - revolving around a hag named Louhi - shoe-horn nicely with the Unapproachable East lore we have, and could be where we have gotten a few of our Finnish FR deities.

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Originally posted by Baltas
...(aside from the fact Uthgar is a distorted version of Uther)...

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Originally posted by Baltas
<snip> And on Oerth there is actually a village, Shell, where Finnish god, Ahto is worshiped, and The god Telchur tries to stop Loviatar from entering(or maybe re-entering?) Oerth. Although he may failed, as there is in Oerth a goddess very similar to Loviatar, Scahrossar. She was introduced to Greyhawk in the Book of Vile Darkness, along with Karaan, a deity strikingly similar to Malar. Although, on the other hand, some think that the gods introduced in that book aren't canonically in Oerth. <snip>

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

While working on Netheril I decided to treat the "dt" at the end of angardt like a language construct that subtly changes the meaning of the word (the only real world example I can think of is the monty python life of brian sketch where he writes "romans go home" ).
So for me dt made the word translate as "of the". So angardt means of the Angar tribe.
Rengarth was the name of the entire people but angardt was one tribe (until they got booted out). This of course gets used by the uthgar tribe because they adopt a bunch of Netheril survivors.
I used it for my vandaldt tribe which lived in vandal station in netheril.
Thats just my take on it.

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Originally posted by Markustay

And things keep going round-N-round...

Shell is 'across the ocean from the Flanaes (Oerth/GH campaign setting), on the continent where New Empyrea is set' (where The Egg of Phoenix series takes place). In my Misbegotten Realms (mash-up setting), I pasted New Empyrea into the North, in the Daggerford region - it was a great fit; especially considering I have the entirety of GH to the west, in place of Anchormé (so Shell is precisely where it should be in regards to THAT setting). You can see a bit of that HERE. Shell is just south of Waterdeep - it was the northernmost town in the EoP material.

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