Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 zhentil keep
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2014 :  17:31:15  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Switching back to the moonsea area after spending some months expanding the cold lands.
So I know all you wonderful keepers are great at referencing lore so I was wondering if anyone had a list of mentions for zhentil keep in the various sources.
I have the obvious ones like the varioud campaign settings for each edition and the ruins of zhentil keep and mysteries of the moonsea but if there are any others in dragon or dungeon mags I'd be glad of a pointer.
Oh and if anyone wants a copy of what I have for vaasa, Damara, impiltur or thar then just pop me an email or pm.
Cheers guys

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2014 :  18:30:50  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh... this reminds me of how anemic my own Zhentil Keep index is. I can link to three specific mentions of the Keep in Questions For Ed this past year, to maybe save some scrolling time:

  • page 2 (Sembian imperialism)

  • page 6 (reception of Zhents abroad)

  • page 38 (interaction with Lashan)



I'll chime in later if I can.
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2014 :  18:58:46  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh it wont be an index, I copy and paste all the detail into one document, go through it all and eliminate the duplicate info, then cross reference it with mentions in any other areas (like portals that travel to another place - but aren't detailed in that other place).

Then identify any inconsistencies (there were a lot in the history of Thar) and once that is all sorted the document looks a bit like the 2nd edition blurbs on cities with various headings but with lots of different coloured text identifying the various edition info and anything added by me or from candlekeep.

Zhentil Keep is the most detailed place I have done yet but it contains so much info relevant to the Moonsea (and it might affect my Thar writeup) that I need to do it before the other cities.

And cheers for the starting references.

That Lashan of Scardale got around, he had plenty of links in Tantras as well from what I remember.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2014 :  09:22:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Xaeyruudh, thanks to your post i managed to uncover one of the lasts few secrets of the OGB.

Anyone have any more Zhentil Keep references, pretty please?

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2014 :  00:37:13  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Ed did an article series on Zhentil Keep in the now defunct Polyhedron magazine. Your chances of getting a copy of that lore are somewhat slim however.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 07 Jan 2014 04:26:00
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2014 :  02:20:15  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Well, Ed did an article series on Zhentil Keep in the now defunct Polyhedron magazine. Your chances of getting a copy if that lore are somewhat slim however.

-- George Krashos

Agreed.

Though I would recommend keeping an eye or three on nobleknight.com for any second hand issues that may pop up.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2014 :  09:25:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thankfully i have them i think.

It ends with polhedron 86 from the looks of it.



Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2014 :  14:56:47  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well come across my first conundrum from the Ruins of Zhentil Keep.

In the history section of the book it mentions that shortly after the founding of the Zhentarim (i will go with offical 1270 date rather than the secret 1261 date), dragons and orcs poured out of the dragonspine mountains (and i presume Thar) and sacked Hulburg and Sulasspryn before besieging Thentia and Melvaunt.

This was setup by the Zhentarim in order that the Moonsea cities cooperate with Zhentil Keep to rebuild the Citadel of the Raven.

So in GHoTR and the Moonsea sourcebooks there is no mention of a 1270 ish date for the destruction of Hulburg and Sulasspryn.

I guess i just have to insert another destruction and rebuilding date for both cities. Those Moonies are nothing if not persistent, endlessly rebuilding destroyed Hulburg and Sulasspryn (now 4 times for Hulburg i believe).


Oh and all those dragons i'm thinking they would probably be Iyrauroth's brood since he is the only dragon i know of in that area and i believe he has past form for loaning out his draconic children to attack cities (anyone remember Northkeep?)

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2014 :  15:56:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After reading some of the history of Zhentil Keep i wonder whether the human kingdom of Thar was not sponsored by the Zhentarim in the first place.

Zhentil Keep was very interested in the mineral wealth of Thar and spent a good deal of time attempting to tame that land (dividing the orc and ogre clans to make war on one another) so that the Zhents could exploit the mineral wealth of the Galenas.

Now Thar has always been an orc and ogre filled land, not to mention the bulettes and other weird nasties that roam the land.

Beldoran supposedly created the human kingdom of Thar after killing Thaurog the last Tharkul. That means Beldoran had to contest with a number of orc and ogre tribes to claim his own kingdom and to do that i am willing to bet he needed a lot of troops.

So what if the Zhents financed his kingdom creating endeavour in order that they get preferential treatment in the ore trading markets.

Of course some time around 1303 i reckon Beldoran changed his mind and so the Zhentarim arranged for another ogre horde to plague the Moonsea North which crushed the human kingdom of Thar. Of course the Zhents didnt anticipate the moral effect this would have on the ogres and orcs. They got bold after retaking their homelands and turned on the Citadel of the Raven. A bit of tactical thinking diverted the horde south but Phlan was destroyed in the process.


Its not unprecedented. Zhentil Keep did something similar in order to have the other cities help rebuild the Citadel of the Raven and that accidentally caused Hulburg and Sulasspryn's destruction.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2014 :  09:19:34  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the history section about the fall of Zhentil Keep it mentioned a frost elemental called Zzutam who was worshipped as a god by the frost giants that attacked Zhentil Keep. Once Cyric was preoccupied by events Zzutam recalled his worshippers.

Now i havent read any of the novels (nor do i intend to), but elementals arent all that powerful by themselves, even an elder elemental would be hard pressed to beat more than a few adult frost giants.

So Zzutam sounds like a good candidate for a primordial being. He must be very powerful, able to control or communicate with many beings from afar. He desires godhood which seems to be the traditional path for primordials to take.

The question is whether he is native to Toril or not. I am initially thinking no given the Moonsea area is near the Tortured lands which was the site of an invasion from the outer planes through the Cats Gate that the Netherese constructed.

During the seven sigils war the Netherese called upon the elementals to help fight their war. What if Zzutam was one such elemental princeling that escaped the Netherese cleanup operation afterwards (much like Maram).

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2014 :  10:02:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ooh, just read a blurb about Darkhold.

Apparently the major bases of the Zhentarim are linked by portals that Manshoon and Sememmon manufactured based on a secret portal discovered in the Citadel of the Raven.

So first thing this says to me is that Darkhold, the Citadel of the Raven, and Zhentil Keep were linked by a portal from 1355 DR onwards (when the Zhents took control of the citadel proper).

Secondly it suggests that Manshoon's creation of the portals was by luck rather than his skill. So perhaps he could only manufacture a limited number of portals by cannibalising the existing one found.

Thirdly who created the portal in the first place. Many sources have suggested that the humans in the citadel originally were of a higher civilised status than other humans when the citadel was built millennia ago. This area was giant territory thousands of years ago, but if it was a giant fortress then the citadel would be of giantish proportions. Batrachi also lived in the area long before the first records of this place were built so maybe a surviving group of batrachi created the citadel before some disaster befell them (after all Haask lairs in Ironfang Keep to the South and he is a batrachi).


Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2014 :  10:54:28  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can now see why Khelben traded the sceptre of the sorcerer kings to Fzoul in exchange to limit his expansion west.

It looks like according to the Ruins of Zhentil Keep that the Zhents were on the cusp of taking a serious chunk of the trade of the Western Heartlands, and from there they could seriously threaten the Sword Coast North and Waterdeep.

Many of the small villages in the Western Heartlands were already part of serious plans for a Zhent monopoly and crucially they were looking to create a new base in Dragonspear Castle which was unlikely to fail given their level of resources.

If the Zhents had succeeded they would have more of a stranglehold on the western heartlands and they would be able to cut off trade to Cormyr from both sides (leaving Sembia and the Dales as its only trading partners left).

Since the Harpers had been unable to combat the Zhentarim expansion effectively since its inception he probably had no other choice than to bribe Fzoul into an agreement to limit Westward expansion.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2014 :  14:29:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given that Khelben was a plans within plans sort, I'm sure that limiting Zhentish expansion was only one of the things his deal accomplished... But sadly, the change of direction that heralded 3E means we may never find out more about it.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2014 :  15:48:06  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Im guessing that on a very simple level there was some enemy from the east or south that Khelben perceived and others didnt that the Zhentarim would end up facing first (if their expansion west was limited).

However Khelben strikes me as a much deeper individual than that and having lived for many centuries he probably had a lot more things he hoped the Zhentarim would accomplish by spreaing elsewhere.

But since Khelben isnt going anywhere for me i will have to come up with those plans myself

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2014 :  11:29:57  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have reached the faiths section in Zhentil Keep and i have been having a few ideas largely inspired by other topics here at the Keep.

Bane being the god of strife obviously derives power from strife everywhere in the realms even within his own church.

Now for whatever reason we have several distinct factions of the church of Bane (ignoring his death and the cyric problems).

The factions are:

1 - The Black Lord's Altar in Threskel ruled by Imperceptor Kabbarath.

2 - The Black Lord's Altar in Mulmaster ruled by the High Imperceptor

3 - The Dark Shrine/Black Altar ruled by Fzoul Chembryl.

And i reckon given the titles that the church in Mulmaster nominally ruled all the churches. That is until strife in the church changed that.


Now i did notice a few curious coincidences regarding the Dark Shrine/Black Altar and i am wondering if they are all connected somehow.

First is this quote

quote:
Over the years, many followers of Bane noticed the social and fiscal benefits of working with the Zhentarim and the number of worshippers in Fzoul’s faction grew, while the High Imperceptor, often busy travelling throughout the Realms, continued to lose influence.


Then

quote:
In the Year of the Prince (1357 DR), the High Imperceptor finally decided to do more than send demanding missives to the Black Altar in Zhentil Keep. He sent a delegation, headed by High Inquisitor Ginali, to yank the church of Bane in Zhentil Keep back under his control.
Closet supporters of the High Imperceptor were convinced to make a rash assault on Fzoul and the Black Altar.


And finally

quote:
Since the death of King Theris in the Year of Shadows (1358 DR), the city has been ruled by Imperceptor Kabbarath Telthaug, who secretly engineered the failure of the King’s Tournament proclaimed by Theris before his death to choose a worthy successor.



It seems a bit suspect that the high imperceptor of Bane suddenly decide to go travelling before an attack was made on the Dark Shrine and then a short time later King Therise of Mourktar dies and the King's Tournament to choose his successor is rigged.



Now i believe that Fzoul has close ties to Lord Knight Imperceptor Teldorn Darkhope in Mintar in more recent times. Such a relationship seems slighly implausible given the distance between them and unlikelihood of them ever meeting unless such alliances were forged many years before.


What if the High Imperceptor during his travels (prior to 1357) visited the other major church of Bane in Faerun and a pact of some sort was forged. He gave aid and expertise to Imperceptor Kabbarath to help assassinate King Therise, and in return was given forces to aid in the assault on the Dark Shrine in Zhentil Keep.

Now here comes the double cross. What if Imperceptor Kabbarath then informed Fzoul and that began the relationship between Zhentil Keep's church of Bane and Mourktar.

The loss of power and standing suffered by the church in Mulmaster allows the church in Mourktar to secede and form its own splinter church. Fzoul Chembryl likewise is able to save enough of his supporters to form his own splinter church which keepts the church in Mulmaster occupied and unable to deal with the church in Mourktar.

The relationship between Zhentil Keep and Mourktar then develops so that Fzoul and Teldorn collaborate to produce those artefacts for Bane's return.

Bane is happy because he hasnt really lost all that many supporters (in fact he gained a lot in Zhentil Keep) and strife is now rampant within his own church which gives him more power. Of course then he dies and this all goes to pot but the 3 separate churches are still vying for power and approval upon his rebirth.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2014 :  11:17:06  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found another interesting passage on the temple of Cyric in the new Zhentil Keep circa 1368 DR

quote:
special arrangement with Khelben Arunsun of Waterdeep resulted in Lord Chess being buried here as well


Now lord Chess was a worshipper of Leira and hated Cyric so i wonder what the motivation for this arrangement was.

Could it be Khelben's twisted sense of vengeance at play here. I recall that Lord Chess was persuaded by Mask to perform a ritual on Blackstaff Tower in Waterdeep to bind Kesef the Chaos Hound; supposedly without Khelben's knowledge. This ritual resulted in the death of Lord Chess.

I think Khelben is sticking a final two fingers up at Lord Chess

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2014 :  10:18:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given the history of the Moonsea region and the state of the various cities around the 1350-1370 period i am surprised that Hulburg at least was not rebuilt.

So Hulburg is destroyed in 1347 and its population disperses throughout the Moonsea area i presume.

Mulmaster's navy is annihilated in 1354 and i have a suspicion that it is destroyed again later as part of Zhentil Keep's secret alliance with Mulmaster and its ruler Rassendyl.

Zhentil Keep's entire navy is obliterated in 1368 and the city is effectively under constant siege until 1370. Even then the city is very underpopulated and its military dramatically reduced even in the 1370's.

The Zhentarim are mostly intact be the bulk of their forces are in the citadel of the raven and they still have to contend with the humanoid forces in the lands around Zhentil Keep for several years.

So Hulburg is in theory free to be reconstructed without too much interference.

The forces of Mulmaster and Zhentil Keep are without a navy from 1368 onwards. The humanoids of Thar are largely concentrated away from Hulburg and Thar; around Zhentil Keep.

Even better there would be a significant diaspora of Zhentil Keep refugees (if i recall some 10,000 people escaped) so that is more than enough to build up a sizable settlement free from the other oppressive cities of the Moonsea.

Yes there would be opposition, but the situation would never be more favourable than between 1369 and 1372.

I personally love the idea of ruined cities coming back from the ashes (Phlan, Yulash) and it seems to be common in the Moonsea area).
Of course the lich Aesperus trapped underneath the ruins might pose a problem and indeed might destroy Hulburg for a 4th (or is it 5th) time with his intended undead legions.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2014 :  11:53:48  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to say some of the lore on the people of Zhentil Keep really is quite deep and intertwined when you collect it from different sources.

Sememmon was once named Malathar from Sembia and he happened to be in Zhentil Keep with the Toloth family when Manshoon began his bid to become a lord of Zhentil Keep.

Malathar saved Manshoon from the destruction of the Toloth and as a reward was tutored in magic by Manshoon himself. Malathar later faked his own death to escape his inevitable demise at Manshoon's hands. Whereupon he changed his name to Sememmon only to become Manshoon's student again.

Again i am not sure why it was decided that Sememmon would leave the Zhentarim and become an agent for the goodies. If anything i think Sememmon probably had a bit of a love thing for Manshoon. After all he saved his life and spent the best part of 100 years working closely within him. Even faking his own death so that he could return to work with him (because Manshoon would almost certainly have eliminated Malathar as a rival or through politics). Plus i like the idea of a Zhentarim controlled by a triumvirate of rulers (Fzoul, Manshoon, and Sememmon) each working from a different fortress.


Then there is Scyllua

Scyllua Darkhope was born in the Dales, secret daughter of Lashan Aumersair of Scardale. She was sold into slavery to the Zhents (probably by her own father who was working with the Zhents - he hoped to manipulate them to his own ends - he was wrong).
There her mother attracted the attention of Teldorn Darkhope's cousin and they were taken into his household.
It cannot be a coincidence that upon Fzoul Chembryl's ascension to high priest of Xvim and the return of Bane that he travelled to Mintar to forge the Sceptre of the Tyrant Kings with Teldorn Darkhope around the time that Scyllua was turned to the darkside by Orgauth.




I am a bit annoyed by the death of Scyllua in the shadowdale adventure and will of course be ignoring that bit of history (the battle was a great idea, the forces and alliances were just picked out of a hat i think)

A paladin turned blackguard that is the heir to the title of Scardale and current captain of the forces of Zhentil Keep is much more interesting than a corpse.

Even more so now that we know that Lashan was related to Elminster and so therefore is Scyllua. I reckon he would have a secret hand in trying to return her to the forces of good. What better way than to have her attack her birthplace and begin butchering her childhood friends to prick her conscience and respark her ideals for justice and protecting the weak.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2014 :  12:01:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One other thing that troubles me is the death of Manshoon.

Not the idea, i love the mad clones running around searching for magic and trying to slay one another (all because the next clone to be activated had succumbed to vampirism; great way to twist the use of a stasis clone).

However Manshoon does not strike me as an easy person to kill. Even Fzoul and a pit fiend and a selection of undead beholders do not seem a strong enough force to kill a man like Manshoon.

So does anyone know exactly how he died, and more importantly why?

Manshoon was a master manipulator and probably knew about Fzoul's plan right from the start so did Manshoon allow himself to die on purpose (of course not realising his next clone was undead).

What is Manshoon's plan now. Throughout his Zhentil Keep writeup it states that he realised the only way to exist in a tyranny was to be the tyrant in charge so it seems odd that he is now content to serve with Fzoul as head of the Zhentarim.

Did Manshoon's years of life and experience cause him to reach another conclusion that actually it is not best to be the tyrant - but to be the manipulator behind the tyrant; the man in the shadows.

Therefore he engineered his own death and faked subservience to Fzoul so that he could manipulate him subtly into spreading Zhentarim influence across Faerun. After all Fzoul has the backing of the church of Xvim/Bane and so could accomplish more if he werent spending much of his resources countering Manshoon's plots and fighting for power and influence within the Zhentarim. If Fzoul were the sole ruler of the Zhentarim then he could focus his resources, and Manshoon could subtly influence the plans with whisperings and misdirection.

I'm definitely keeping the Manshoon Wars but i just wish i knew what happened and why so i could decide how the future turns out.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2014 :  15:04:17  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found a list of Imperceptors of Bane in the adventure booklet for the Ruins of Zhentil's Keep.

It poses some interesting questions.

quote:
A. Stallac Benadi First Imperceptor of Bane, 735-844 DR
First and greatest follower of Bane, invested with the title of
Imperceptor by the avatar of the Lord of Strife himself. Seventh in
Faerūn to receive the greatest gift of Bane.
B. Tomar of Bane Second Imperceptor of Bane, 801-877 DR
Most ruthless of all Imperceptors, Tomar’s greatest achievement was
the introduction of a deadly plague into the Western Heartlands,
causing the deaths of thousands. Eighth in Faerūn to receive the greatest gift of Bane.
C. Harr Santolic Third Imperceptor of Bane, 848-966 DR
Following in the footstep of his predecessors, Harr Santolic is attributed with the rise in the church of Bane in the Western Heartlands.
D. Wedic B#146;donder Fourth Imperceptor of Bane, 901-1010 DR
A savage Imperceptor, who brought the worship of the Lord of Strife
to full blossom within the walls of Zhentil Keep. Last in Faerūn to
receive the greatest gifi of Bane.
E. Forja B#146;donder Fifth High Imperceptor of Bane, 988-1076 DR
The only female to be named High Imperceptor—in her father’s footsteps— and the most beautiful of all Banites to walk the face of Faerūn. Renowned for the vast number of Harpers who died at her hands.
F. Strife Sixth High Imperceptor of Bane, 1055-1141 DR
Raised from birth by his predecessor to succeed her us Imperceptor,
Strife brought quarreling factions of the church together and spread the word of Bane further than any other mortal upon the face of Faerūn. Died at the hands of treacherous Harpers.
G. Brist of Bane Seventh High Imperceptor of Bane, 1120-1224 DR
Youngest to possess the mantle of Imperceptor, Brist begun the war
against the jealous gods of Faerūn, who sought to banish Banites
everywhere. Died at the hands of a chic of Lathander.
H. Szchulan Darkoon Eighth High Imperceptor of Bane, 1207-



So we have the first Imperceptor of Bane, Stallac Benadi, seventh to receive the greatest gift of Bane.

First: what is the greatest gift of Bane. I assume this is a reference to him becoming a Banelich. According tot he writeup of the Banelich these were created by a foul ritual revealed by Bane to certain of his faithful. However after 1010 DR he became disatisfied with the Baneliches and so chose not to reveal the ritual to anyone else.

So if Stallac was the seventh banelich and Wedic Bdonder was the last (Tomar being the eighth). Either Bane created 27 Baneliches between 877 and 1010 DR. Or this ritual of Bane was discovered by means other than it being revealed by Bane himself.

Second: Stellac was Imperceptor of Bane, i.e. high priest of the church of Bane. However Mulmaster did not exist until 934 DR and Zhentil Keep in any form until 747 DR. So what church is Stellac the Imperceptor of. The only thing of relevance i found that happened in 735 DR is that Iyachtu Xvim's reign in Westgate comes to an end. We know that Iyachtu Xvim is the son of Bane so maybe there was a church of Bane in Westgate and sometime after 735 DR he dies and Stellac succeeds him.

Third: Forja Bdonder in 1010 DR becomes the High Imperceptor of Bane, all other Imperceptors before her were just Imperceptors. So why the change in title. I have seen suggestions that there were separate churches of Bane (i.e. orthodox and non orthodox) one of which is possibly the Black Lord's Cloak in Threskel.
Since the schism between Fzoul and the orthodox Banites doesnt occur until 1276 DR i propose that at some point around 988 DR the temple in Threskel is either created and the Imperceptor becomes High Imperceptor to show her rulership over the grand temples of Bane.

Or in 1010 DR some type of schism occurs between Mulmaster and Threskel which results in her declaring herself High Imperceptor as a show of power to all.


One possible plot link is in 929 DR Chessenta seceded from Unther and became independent. Could it be that the church of Bane was involved in that if indeed a church of Bane became prominent in Mourktar in Threskel in 1010 DR. There must be a reason for the largest temple to Bane being placed in Mourktar. It is likely that Unther's armies would have marched along the coast past Mourktar to get to the rest of Chessenta so the majority of fighting may have taken place in what is now Threskel.
Bane is the god of strife and causing uprising and rebellions is going to add to his power so helping the secession of Chessenta is a something he might have a hand in.
Also the church their is called the Black Lord's Cloak, probably after an artefact of Bane's; his actually cloak perhaps.
What if Bane manifested in Mourktar during the rebellion of Chessenta and aided them in breaking away from Unther. He left behind a cloak and that was the impetus for the creation of the largest temple to Bane in Faerun.

That would explain the title change in 1010 DR (some temples can take many many years to be built).

Also Strife brought quarelling factions of the church so i am thinking that around 929 Bane's church played a role in the rebellion of Chessenta. A grand church was built and Forja was declared High Imperceptor of the grand churches (because Mourktar has its own Imperceptor). Its more than likely that the church in Mourktar disagreed with being ruled from Mulmaster and so has chafed against its decrees for centuries. Strife the sixth High Imperceptor managed to get the Black Lords Altar and Black Lords Cloak churches working together to spread the word of Bane further than ever before.
But as is inevitable the Black Lords Cloak went back to its old ways of seeking to undermine the High Imperceptor's power until in modern times it is essentially its own church.


Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 15 Jan 2014 15:40:50
Go to Top of Page

hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1152 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2014 :  17:06:59  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you read the rest of the adventure book, you'll note that Stallac is Imperceptor of his own church located beneath Zhentil Keep.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2014 :  19:23:22  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well him being Imperceptor of only his own church wouldn't tally with the rest of the lore.

He was the first priest of Bane to achieve the level of power he achieved and for this he was personally given the title Imperceptor by an avatar of Bane (according to the epitaph). He was then sent in 844 to Zhentil Keep where he was tasked with creating a vast underground empire dedicated to Bane. And as a reward he was transformed into a Banelich

So if he were only the Imperceptor of his own little underground temple then why is there a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, up to 8th Imperceptor listed; they are not Imperceptors of his little Temple, we know that the 8th is in fact the High Imperceptor of Bane residing in Mulmaster and leader of the orthodox church of Bane.

Upon becoming a Banelich the Imperceptor loses his title and a new Imperceptor is chosen (according to the blurb on the Baneliches and other bits of info in the book) so that would mean he established his underground church in 844 then became a Imperceptor for a few moments before becoming a Banelich and handing his title to someone else.



Imperceptor we already know is a title of the church of Bane that is granted to 12th level priests. I reckon that Stellac was the first priest of Bane to achieve 12th level and was rewarded by an avatar of Bane himself and made the head of the church of Bane (i.e. ruler of all temples to Bane).

Where he was a priest before he became Imperceptor I don't know, I merely suggested Westgate because its a nasty place full of intrigue and it had Xvim rule it for a time so it seems a good place for a temple to Bane.

Looking at the epitaphs for the other Imperceptors it seems that the Western Heartlands had quite a few shrines and maybe the odd temple to Bane, but at 844 DR Stellac retired from his post as Imperceptor and went to Zhentil Keep's catacombs where he began creating his underground empire and either immediately became a Banelich or was made a Banelich sometime later. The actual details of Stellac are somewhat contradictory saying that he spent 160 years building his empire before becoming a lich but that he fought off several other liches from Zhentil Keep (the night Plagues) which would mean he was a lich around 882 DR.

But either way Stellac was the first head of the church of Bane. Maybe up to that point Bane's church was just a group of unorganised churches with no unifying ethos or hierarchy.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2014 :  12:26:08  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tell you what, those polyhedron articles on the Moonsea contain some good stuff.

Mirrormere Bay at the northern end of the Dragon Reach is also known as "Stars in the Water" which sounds like a reference to a meteor strike nearby.

The Moonsea was formerly known as The Dragonsea, because dragons used to meet here to mate. And i remember reading in Giantcraft i think that it was referred to as the dragonsea which means that the Moonsea couldnt have been formed by a meteor strike after the giants arrived on Faerun, it must have been before.
In all likelihood the Moonsea was formed by a meteor along with the big one that formed the sea of fallen stars. After all meteors can fall in showers (hence the name meteor shower).

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2014 :  12:54:19  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given past history from Netheril and recent lore about the Dark Three. The Moonsea area (The Moonsea, the Tortured Lands, the Ride, Thar) seem to be a hotbed of primordial activity.

We have the Cats Gate through which came powerful outer planar beings and to combat them the Netherese called powerful inner planar primordials.

One of the escapees from that conflict (The Seven Sigils War) was Maram of the Great Spear who laired in the Tortured Lands.

Hargut was called into Faerun by Hargut at Ironfang Keep. I wonder if there isnt some physical/geographical/magical phenomenon that indicated why Haask chose to centre his empire of Grong Haarp on Ironfang Keep so he could summon Hargut.

We have an ice elemental called Zzutam in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep with the power to control an army of Frost Giants and the ability to recall them at will (all though his control was subverted by a greater deity).

We also have the Vaegould tribe of barbarians in the Ride that worship primordials and have a "Ritual of Bloodfire" that may allow some kind of connection or control. The use of fire indicates that it may be some kind of fire primordial.

That is 2 confirmed primordial beings in a single area with another possible 2. That seems like rather a lot. They also all seem to be extraplanar in nature and most probably arrived during the Seven Sigils war through the Cats Gate or Netherest summoning. One however is from the Far Realm.

I wonder if the planar boundary in the Moonsea area is a bit weak. Maybe thats why the Netherese created the Cats Gate nearby. Again maybe thats why Haask chose the Moonsea for his empire.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2014 :  14:54:57  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i think thats the Moonsea and Zhentil Keep done. Unless anyone knows of any obscure references in Dragon or Dungeon mags?

The Polyhedron stuff was great, but mostly for detailing the areas around Zhentil Keep like Thar, The Ride, The Tortured Lands, Melvaunt, and Thentia.

The Zhentil Keep stuff in it was mostly used again for the Ruins of Zhentil Keep which i already had.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000