| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 23:13:13
|
| Same here. The adventure doesn't explain how that is possible, but these particular dwarves are cursed and cannot breed among themselves. The only way they have found to breed is with orcs and to be fair the dwarves aren't necessarily willing participants. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
 |
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 18:36:14
|
The cross-breed "dworcs" are only part of the problem with Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle, IMO. The whole book has a slap-dash cobbled together at the last minute feel to it, and the humor is extremely juvenile. It has Chris Perkins' stink all over it. "Mama Booga" and her sons... a Red Wizard nicknamed "Boo Boo Doll"? It's all just way too stupid, and feels highly derivative of earlier stupid modules of the 1970s and 1980s.
They just didn't have enough Realmsian creativity with this. Even the original Delfen Yellowknife of N5 is still here as a fixture because they couldn't think of (or be bothered with) creating another wizard. I do get the feeling that they probably imported some ideas from Eric Boyd's unpublished updating of the Illefarn region, but very little of this book has an Eric Boyd feel to it... which is really unfortunate.
Honestly, I hope it's all apocryphal and never considered canon.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Dec 2013 18:38:04 |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 21:37:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Without an actual retcon of 4e and its forced inclusion of core 4e PoL material, the cosmology is irrevocably broken.
To be fair, 3.x already did this by changing the wheel to the tree.
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
I have ideas of how it could be done retaining some semblance of continuity,
What? You silly mortals thought our planes lool like a three or a sandwhich? You can't be serious, they always looked like a wheel, you have no clue where each place was in relation to each other.
Done ;)
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
'this didn't happen and we are sorry' sort of rollback didn't happen given the damage the IP took in the past few years.
That would damage the IP even more. How would I ever be able to again buy an FR novel in good faith of it telling me some canon happenings in the Realms if all of that could be ret-coned out any time? |
|
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 12:20:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
That would damage the IP even more. How would I ever be able to again buy an FR novel in good faith of it telling me some canon happenings in the Realms if all of that could be ret-coned out any time?
I agree completely with this sentiment , novels are canon and should be treated so.
Plus even though the sundering is happening now we cannot expect everything to be revealed in a few books. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 12:42:36
|
There are retcons and there are RETCONS...
Saying "Dwarves and Halflings can 'do magic', and its always been that way" is a retcon. (A BAD ONE, IMHO)
Saying that "mortals never truly understood how the universe works' isn't a retcon at all, and any changes they make within those parameters becomes 'new information learned' (which may also prove to be false at some point in the future).
So it boils down to this - if they break the continuity, but they explain why it happened (in a plausible manner), then we accept is as part of the ongoing story that is the Realms. If they just make massive changes willy-nilly (4e), without much of an explanation other then, "Spellplague!!!", then thats just poor design; it deteriorates the immersion factor.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
The cross-breed "dworcs" are only part of the problem with Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle, IMO. The whole book has a slap-dash cobbled together at the last minute feel to it, and the humor is extremely juvenile. It has Chris Perkins' stink all over it. "Mama Booga" and her sons... a Red Wizard nicknamed "Boo Boo Doll"? It's all just way too stupid, and feels highly derivative of earlier stupid modules of the 1970s and 1980s.
Makes you wonder if he is (still?) trying to sabotage FR (because he admitted he prefers Eberron), or is he truly that untalented? 
If they gave him Eric Boyd's amazing labor-of-love and he 'Perkinized it', then thats just a damn shame. Everything he has ever produced is absolute drivel (IMO) - I can't understand how he is still working in the industry.
Rant over.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 11 Dec 2013 15:51:37 |
|
|
|
Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 13:04:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
The cross-breed "dworcs" are only part of the problem with Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle, IMO. The whole book has a slap-dash cobbled together at the last minute feel to it, and the humor is extremely juvenile. It has Chris Perkins' stink all over it. "Mama Booga" and her sons... a Red Wizard nicknamed "Boo Boo Doll"? It's all just way too stupid, and feels highly derivative of earlier stupid modules of the 1970s and 1980s.
I will give you that if I never saw another realms product with Chris Perkins in the credits it would still be to soon, but I really do think that you are getting caught up in the bad spots. Nothing in the adventure is loaded down with Realmslore, but it is a solid adventure and if you are willing to put sometime into fleshing out/researching the surrounding area it works really well. I am running it for 8 players(2 FR fans, 4 RGP players and 2 people total new to RPG games) and everyone is having a good time. So far all of the little jokes you are mentioning got a few laughs and nobody really minds them. However, they in no way define the campaign. The PCs have a pretty focused approach on figuring out what to do about the elemental orbs and handling the mountain Illfern situation.
Also, I don't think Delfen Yellowknife was put in due to lazyness. Wizards in FR have a habit of extending their lifespan. I think he is in there on purpose to reflect that realms tradition. How many famous Archmages have extended their life for a few hundred years before needing to resort to Lichdom? |
Tarlyn Embersun |
|
|
|
ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 15:26:23
|
I have yet to find anything compelling about this Sundering "event". To me, it reeks very much as War of the Spider Queen did. Really, I would simply have called WotSQ "Lolth's Moving Day", since that's all that really came of that event (and becoming more powerful...which made no sense to me, since she didn't really gain any new worshippers, hell, she lost a LOT from what I could tell).
While I find I like the idea of the Sundering being a background to more personal tales, it's a little too far in the background. Instead of these personal tales interacting with the Sundering, it seems to be little more than a "Huh? Wha?!" moment for the characters in these stories. That's too vague I think.
I soldiered through WotSQ because I don't like not finishing something I start (no matter how dreadful I might find the process). The same will happen with the Sundering novels.
I'm getting a strong impression that The Sundering will end up being better called "Abeir's Moving Day". |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 18:42:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Makes you wonder if he is (still?) trying to sabotage FR (because he admitted he prefers Eberron), or is he truly that untalented?
If they gave him Eric Boyd's amazing labor-of-love and he 'Perkinized it', then thats just a damn shame. Everything he has ever produced is absolute drivel (IMO) - I can't understand how he is still working in the industry. Rant over.
Well, to be fair I should really get more in-depth about what I think the problems were, and why I thought they were problems.
The thing about Perkins, he's probably one of those editors who is really excellent at coordination, planning, and publishing. You've got to have highly qualified technical editors in any publishing company. Not having worked with him, I don't know if that's true, but he's been in that position a long time. That said, even amazing technical production editors aren't -all- going to be just as good at creative writing and development. Perkins has never really impressed me with his creative side. He seems to prefer juvenile humor, based on his videos (e.g. when he DMs for Penny Arcade public games), the creative stuff he's done with his name as a primary by-line, and what I've heard of his own homebrew setting/world.
I haven't seen the unpublished Illefarn expansion by Eric Boyd, but I am usually impressed with Boyd's work and his creativity. I know that this team did have access to that, and they even reference it. Even so, very little of this feels like Boyd's work. Honestly, I'd give a LOT to see Boyd's unpublished Illefarn update.
And I don't think Perkins or anyone else really ever intended (or intends) to sabotage the Realms. But repeating bad decisions isn't going to help either.
What I didn't like about Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle really extends to more than just the juvenile humor. The whole adventure path just seems uninspired and dull. I agree with the OP when he talks about it being "on the rails" design, because there is really only one way to go and a lot of it is prompted by the new NPC Isteval. Having an NPC repeatedly come up to your party and saying, "hey, you all should do THIS next" is incredibly lazy design, IMO. I did this first as a player not a DM, and there were parts where we just didn't want to do some of what Isteval suggested. My group does prefer sandbox-style, but it wasn't only that. There were times when we simply lost interest in the main storyline and couldn't see the point of following up on parts of it.
It's also missing out on some big things that people have wanted ever since N5 came out. Very little of the area surrounding Daggerford is fleshed out, and the "new" regional map is almost exactly the same as the original N5 map. It doesn't have a good update of Daggerford as a town and it doesn't give a layout of the Floshin estates, talk about the Elvish SongPaths, or even give all that much on Illefarn. When I said that it was lazy to keep Delfen Yellowknife, what I meant was that Delfen is (and was) really little more than a cardboard-cutout wizard without anything interesting about him. Why keep him around?
If I recall, the original N5 and its Daggerford inhabitants were mostly derived from or inspired from the Prydain fantasy novels. They had an opportunity here to really flesh out the area and update it not only for 4th Edition people but advance it into the modern era for use with 5th/Next. Particularly for a large module/campaign that is supposed to be a unique collector's item, it's VERY lacking. At points, Isteval kept referring to the group as "heroes" and the town acted like we were huge big-shots when we'd essentially cleared up some problem "dworcs" and did some other minor stuff. I mean... helpful, sure. Heroes?
The adventure itself is... okay. The elements involved are all pulled from other bigger and better modules of the past. And given that the gaming rules for 5E printed in the latter half of the book are already outdated, this whole product is just overly silly and rather empty for the price. When our DM revealed that the Red Wizard was called "Boo Boo Doll" we all burst out laughing and one of my fellow players said, "that is seriously the dumbest thing I have ever heard." Then, the reveal on -why- she was called that was even worse. It was funny because it was just plain bad design.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 11 Dec 2013 19:20:22 |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 19:09:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
I will give you that if I never saw another realms product with Chris Perkins in the credits it would still be to soon, but I really do think that you are getting caught up in the bad spots. Nothing in the adventure is loaded down with Realmslore, but it is a solid adventure and if you are willing to put sometime into fleshing out/researching the surrounding area it works really well.
I'll certainly agree that the adventure path was... fine. Solid in terms of how it progresses in a linear way. But for something this expensive, I was hoping that the design team would have done the researching and fleshing out of the area. I'd consider the 4E Neverwinter product a good example of an inspired, good update even if I'm not all that fond of the 4E era.
quote:
I am running it for 8 players(2 FR fans, 4 RGP players and 2 people total new to RPG games) and everyone is having a good time. So far all of the little jokes you are mentioning got a few laughs and nobody really minds them. However, they in no way define the campaign. The PCs have a pretty focused approach on figuring out what to do about the elemental orbs and handling the mountain Illfern situation.
I'm glad you had a great time with it overall. I just think that for something with this price tag and its focus on an area that people have begged for new lore, it really should've been a lot better. To us, it was rather bland and predictable.
quote:
Also, I don't think Delfen Yellowknife was put in due to lazyness. Wizards in FR have a habit of extending their lifespan. I think he is in there on purpose to reflect that realms tradition. How many famous Archmages have extended their life for a few hundred years before needing to resort to Lichdom?
Yes, long-lived mages do have a tendency for survival, and that's certainly a Realms "thing" to have happen. On the other hand, the original Delfen from N5 really wasn't very interesting to begin with. Here, nothing is really added to that rather dull character, except that he survived and he's used primarily to push the PCs down a particular path. Quite literally, Delfen says, "you all should go here next" and that isn't very good IMO.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 11 Dec 2013 19:21:55 |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 19:18:25
|
| well there is that other adventure next year something something daggerford that is supposed to tie into ghosts of dragonspear...... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 21:30:26
|
| Upcoming adventures are Scourge of the Sword Coast and Dead in Thay |
Yan
Playtester |
Edited by - Plaguescarred on 11 Dec 2013 21:31:53 |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 23:57:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Plaguescarred
Upcoming adventures are Scourge of the Sword Coast and Dead in Thay
These are Encounters series adventures only...?
What is it with WotC not wanting to make money, seriously?
They should sell adventure modules. I have no desire to drive to a store for weekly sessions run by unwashed teenagers. 
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
When is this "Sundering" going to happen?
