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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 18:45:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's part of why I have a hard time with the issue of the Kingdom of Many Arrows. It's a nation forged in blood, with land seized from their neighbors, led by the representative of a deity of strength and conquest... And then, ringed by potential enemies, the previously highly aggressive and savage peoples of this nation suddenly go against their history and the dictates of their deity to become farmers and traders? 
Isn't that how some nations were created in the real world?
Seizing land by force isn't the issue. Orcs have thousands of years of history of unprovoked attacks and unrestricted warfare on anyone and everyone. For them to launch yet another such attack, to surround themselves with enemies, and then put aside their history to become farmers -- that's the part that doesn't make sense. They created enemies, surrounded themselves with those same enemies, and did it all for the purpose of embracing the same soft lifestyle that their own gods were against.
But again, isn't that how things worked in the living world too? Yeah, you don't have the "thousands of years of history" thing in the real world because we haven't been around for that long, but Orcs becoming a nation in the FR isn't something that farfetched.
EDIT: Actually, what's really farfetched is that they've been a warlike race for "thousands of years" and never settled down for peace. But heroes need bad guys to kill and its always more comfortable for the reader to have them killing members of an "unredeemable race" than having them kill people you could relate to. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 05 Dec 2013 18:53:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 20:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
But again, isn't that how things worked in the living world too? Yeah, you don't have the "thousands of years of history" thing in the real world because we haven't been around for that long, but Orcs becoming a nation in the FR isn't something that farfetched.
I don't know of any real-world examples where a group's entire history was going out of their way to attack anyone they could find, and then, immediately after yet another unprovoked attack, they settled down to become farmers.
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
EDIT: Actually, what's really farfetched is that they've been a warlike race for "thousands of years" and never settled down for peace. But heroes need bad guys to kill and its always more comfortable for the reader to have them killing members of an "unredeemable race" than having them kill people you could relate to.
It's not at all unrealistic, since their culture and their gods embrace warfare and conflict. There have been plenty of real-world examples of cultures that were very warlike and aggressive, and preferred warfare over diplomacy. Not for the same time scale, certainly, but then again, these groups didn't have deities that really existed that were pushing for such behavior.
What is unrealistic, to me, is to have such a strong opposition to one of the basic elements of fantasy, and then continue to read it. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 21:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by DragonReader
Perhaps you would be interested in Stan Nicholls Orcs series:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcs:_First_Blood
I have not read it but it sounds interesting. The series is described as being about the conflict between humns and orcs told from the point of view of the orcs. From reading the reviews, I think that the orcs here are the "good guys," although not necessarily always good. But again I haven't read it so I don't know for sure.
Another book (which again I haven't read) that features a normally "evil" race as the protagonists is "The Goblin Corps" by Ari Marmell.
I do agree that in fantasy fiction in general it would be interesting to see some books that feature orcs and such as the "good guys" and conversly the usual good guy races as "bad guys" (if for no other reason than to shake things up and avoid re-hashing old plots). But that doesn't mean every series needs to get rid of the concept of orcs as the bad guys. And in a long standing series like FR there is no reason to go back and change history.
RAS's short story (and comic adaptation) "Dark Mirror" features a lone goodly goblin, who both clearly is exceptionally ethical, and also apologetic for his own race. Drizzt seeks to help him escape from some evil humans, but the goblin selflessly demands to be a sacrificial lamb for the humans, since he understands their hatred of goblinoids in general, even if he personally is an exception to the rule.
RAS regularly goes against type with his characters, but for all the hating on him for supposedly not following established Realmslore, he still sticks to the big picture. He stuck with the notion of goblinoids being fundamentally evil creatures, and their culture being fundamentally evil, but there can still be individual exceptions. No race is entirely evil. And no culture is entirely successful in indoctrinating its people with a given way of thinking. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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DragonReader
Senior Scribe
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2013 : 01:22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
RAS's short story (and comic adaptation) "Dark Mirror" features a lone goodly goblin, who both clearly is exceptionally ethical, and also apologetic for his own race. Drizzt seeks to help him escape from some evil humans, but the goblin selflessly demands to be a sacrificial lamb for the humans, since he understands their hatred of goblinoids in general, even if he personally is an exception to the rule.
I had forgotten about that one. I really enjoyed that story. It is a great example of the not all bad not all good thing I was talking about. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2013 : 17:52:40
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| Psssh.. my Kobold Paladin of Lathander laughs at the notion people can't be good. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2013 : 10:07:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally don't have an issue with the idea of orcs -- or other evil races -- adopting a more neutral or even goodly mindset... So long as there is a good reason for it.
I've said before that I can see orcs settling down and forming a more peaceful society -- but that it would have to be an isolated society. We've seen, in the Realms, what orcs do to their neighbors and anyone else who gets in their way. If you remove all other locals, then orcs becoming more civilized would be a quite reasonable expectation.
That's part of why I have a hard time with the issue of the Kingdom of Many Arrows. It's a nation forged in blood, with land seized from their neighbors, led by the representative of a deity of strength and conquest... And then, ringed by potential enemies, the previously highly aggressive and savage peoples of this nation suddenly go against their history and the dictates of their deity to become farmers and traders?
The problem I have with this suggestion is that it reeks of a pro-segregation message.
I get what you're saying, but still, it's essentially saying "Oh, sure, they can be good. So long as they do it over there, out of sight, where I don't have to use the same drinking fountin as they do." |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2013 : 10:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Yawn.
I do believe Fellfire is 'un-amused' here.  |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2013 : 10:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Man I am so far behind on these books. Will probably get this one once a paperback version comes out.
I need to BEGIN reading them more. My interests lay with Elminster and Jarlaxle, or Artemis. Drizzt was always of interest to me, but not enough to read all the novels about him. I suppose now is the BEST time to continue the Icewind Dale trilogy. |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2013 : 15:07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally don't have an issue with the idea of orcs -- or other evil races -- adopting a more neutral or even goodly mindset... So long as there is a good reason for it.
I've said before that I can see orcs settling down and forming a more peaceful society -- but that it would have to be an isolated society. We've seen, in the Realms, what orcs do to their neighbors and anyone else who gets in their way. If you remove all other locals, then orcs becoming more civilized would be a quite reasonable expectation.
That's part of why I have a hard time with the issue of the Kingdom of Many Arrows. It's a nation forged in blood, with land seized from their neighbors, led by the representative of a deity of strength and conquest... And then, ringed by potential enemies, the previously highly aggressive and savage peoples of this nation suddenly go against their history and the dictates of their deity to become farmers and traders?
The problem I have with this suggestion is that it reeks of a pro-segregation message.
I get what you're saying, but still, it's essentially saying "Oh, sure, they can be good. So long as they do it over there, out of sight, where I don't have to use the same drinking fountin as they do."
It is not at all saying that. What I'm saying is that as long as the orcs have potential enemies, I don't see them settling down to become peaceful. In the absence of potential enemies, with no one to fight, then they are more likely to become peaceful.
In other words, in their current environ, orcs are happily to slaughter anyone they come across. You don't change that behavior without changing the environment. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 04:00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In other words, in their current environ, orcs are happily to slaughter anyone they come across. You don't change that behavior without changing the environment.
I think this is a really reductionist way of looking at things. It basically condemns Orcs to be a warmongering race because the only way for them to not be at war is to run out of enemies. A whole race is comdemned to being ntohing more than fodder for would be heroes.
You don't need to run out of enemies to prefer peace, I don't see why orcs can't get tired of the endless fighting too. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 06:01:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In other words, in their current environ, orcs are happily to slaughter anyone they come across. You don't change that behavior without changing the environment.
I think this is a really reductionist way of looking at things. It basically condemns Orcs to be a warmongering race because the only way for them to not be at war is to run out of enemies. A whole race is comdemned to being ntohing more than fodder for would be heroes.
You don't need to run out of enemies to prefer peace, I don't see why orcs can't get tired of the endless fighting too.
It doesn't condemn the orcs to be a warmongering race -- their own history shows that's what they are. If thousands of years of them going out of their way to look for enemies doesn't prove that, then nothing will.
That's why I say that only in the absence of enemies will they become peaceful... Though it's actually just as likely that they'll simply war against each other. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 15:33:25
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| So what? Orcs will always be limited by their history? Humanity managed to crawl out of caves a long time ago too, there's no reason why the orc race cannot progress into a more civilized race. The only thing holding them back is what the writers and content planners at WotC want to do with them. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 18:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
So what? Orcs will always be limited by their history? Humanity managed to crawl out of caves a long time ago too, there's no reason why the orc race cannot progress into a more civilized race. The only thing holding them back is what the writers and content planners at WotC want to do with them.
It's not just their history -- it's their nature, and their deities. Orcs from ten thousand years ago do the exact same things as orcs from today. They are not interested in anything else, and they won't be, as long as they are in the same situation. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 20:17:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Alruane
I need to BEGIN reading them more. My interests lay with Elminster and Jarlaxle, or Artemis. Drizzt was always of interest to me, but not enough to read all the novels about him. I suppose now is the BEST time to continue the Icewind Dale trilogy.
If you don't already have them (or access to them) this is the time of the year WOTC usually reprints the early Drizzt books into omnibuses. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 20:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not just their history -- it's their nature, and their deities. Orcs from ten thousand years ago do the exact same things as orcs from today. They are not interested in anything else, and they won't be, as long as they are in the same situation.
Orcs by Stan Nicholls. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2013 : 15:52:12
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Something I've wondered about is why the orcish gods are all evil. Humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings etc have good, neutral and evil gods.
So why do orcs, goblinoids, gnolls etc only have evil gods? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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shorac
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2014 : 23:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I'm just glad that more books are on the horizon. They need to crank out one book a month IMO.
I couldnt agree more..... |
.......<creator>.... |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 12:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
So what? Orcs will always be limited by their history? Humanity managed to crawl out of caves a long time ago too, there's no reason why the orc race cannot progress into a more civilized race. The only thing holding them back is what the writers and content planners at WotC want to do with them.
It's not just their history -- it's their nature, and their deities. Orcs from ten thousand years ago do the exact same things as orcs from today. They are not interested in anything else, and they won't be, as long as they are in the same situation.
I think you are overestimating the importance of deities in the realms Wooly. Yes they are important and yes many people are fanatical in their worship of said deities but the vast majority are not. I assume the same is for orcs and so when Obould gave them a much higher standard of living that only came about due to his somewhat heretical way of thinking they were willing to accept it.
If the orcish gods had outright rejected Obould's policies , which they did not, there would most likely have been a civil war no doubt. But that does not mean Obould's faction was doomed they may even have prevailed as they did against that half orge Chieftain, whose name I cannot currently recall.
To sum up there are plenty of deities out there. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 13:36:20
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Orky deities promote the violence and warfare orcs have lived by for millennia. Orky nature is to war on everyone, orky history is a long and bloody chronicle of waging war upon others for the sake of doing so, and orky deities have happily encouraged this behavior for time out of mind.
So it's not just one factor: everything about orcs indicates they are not the types to peacably settle down -- especially after a war they launched.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 12:13:22
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It is a very unlikely circumstance but due of the unique factors that could be found in the kingdom of Many Arrows, the most important of which was the presence of Obould, it did happen.
Just because something is unlikely does not mean it will never happen. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 12:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
It is a very unlikely circumstance but due of the unique factors that could be found in the kingdom of Many Arrows, the most important of which was the presence of Obould, it did happen.
Just because something is unlikely does not mean it will never happen.
Agreed. But the sheer unlikeliness of it is the issue. It is not, to me, a believable development. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 12:55:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
It is a very unlikely circumstance but due of the unique factors that could be found in the kingdom of Many Arrows, the most important of which was the presence of Obould, it did happen.
Just because something is unlikely does not mean it will never happen.
Agreed. But the sheer unlikeliness of it is the issue. It is not, to me, a believable development.
Cant argue with that.
Each to his own. |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 13:43:38
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| Orcish brutality and them being evil can work. For all the praise A Song of Ice and Fire gets for being gritty, look at Ramsay Bolton. He's the character closest to being purely evil, though his backstory turns his cruelty into a form of self-loathing. Do something like that with orcs and you've got interesting grounds for a primarily evil bunch of creatures. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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sillaric_culdanin
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 01:26:21
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| The thing I'm finding confusing here is attacking the underpinnings of someone else's creation. Gary and Dave structured their world the way they thought it should be to make both a creative foundation and to have a lot of fun. A large number of people (probably the majority if you look at FR's survival vs Eberron's) don't want deep moral complexity in their gaming. At their core, Orcs as a race are evil. In the 2e Planescape material Orcish afterlife was to spend eternity on Acheron warring against goblins (who were there experiencing their eternal reward). You don't have to like the literature, frankly if you don't then don't subject yourself to it. All of the diversity of our humanity is represented in the Realms, dark to light, good to evil and lawful to chaotic, all within the various strains of humanity that exist. Having real monsters, ones that require to services of heroes that can protect innocents from their depredations, doesn't, I don't think, promote segregation. What we see in the Realms and most other forms of fantasy writing is the existence of something we don't really see often in our own world, the existence of born evil. |
Last living Paladin and Adept of the Ruby Legion of Alankier |
Edited by - sillaric_culdanin on 18 Feb 2014 01:27:49 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 01:57:30
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| Just because the setting was created with Orcs being evil doesn't mean that the setting can't evolve. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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sillaric_culdanin
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 03:25:25
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Sure, of course it can. Only if the writers want it to. Honestly, I've used this whole moral complexity in my home games (including an FR game that spanned 20 years and three editions) with monster nations and players kept on edge never knowing whether they'd kill a truly good-hearted goblin or orc. I'm a fan of the concept and have loved Song of Ice and Fire and the Malazan Book of the Fallen for that same reason. What I don't think is fair is to force that on the writers/creators of published setting. I certainly don't think its fair to accuse Gygax, Greenwood or hell, even Tolkien of writing in support of segregational beliefs. That's not a fair critique.
As to the legitimacy of Many Arrows as a nation, they took it, now they keep it. I think the writing has been clear that an overnight transition to farming didn't happen. Its still a culture predicated on strength of arm and strength of will. A nation needs an economy to survive, that's one thing Eberron did well with their monster nations. They created a viable export in vicious mercenaries for both monster nations.
Tanthalus, I'm not disagreeing with your point at all, I'm just disagreeing with its applicability to the discussion at hand. |
Last living Paladin and Adept of the Ruby Legion of Alankier |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 20:01:05
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I don't defend that Gygax, Greenwood or Tolkien support segregational beliefs. That's a stupid argument.
What they did do was create a token villain race that players/readers could easily identify as evil and have their heroes fight.
And then their worlds evolved and expanded (well, not Tolkien's) and things don't need to be black and white as they were back then. That's my stance on the subject. I completely disagree that Orcs are incapable of having an organized kingdom just because they're evil. That certainly didn't stop all the other evil kingdoms/nations in the FR, but when it comes to Orcs some scribes here insist that it makes no sense and was a mistake. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 20:53:34
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| Pretty sure no one has said orcs can't have a kingdom just because they're evil. The argument has been that a group with a history of continuous, unprovoked warfare against anyone they can find is unlikely to suddenly stop attacking everyone and make friendly with the neighbors they just stole land from. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 00:11:32
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I'm pretty sure that someone has brought the "because they're chaotic evil" argument up before, even if it wasn't in this specific scroll.
As to the specifics of your argument, my point is still the same. Things change, just like how they've changed in the real life world. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 04:42:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
I'm pretty sure that someone has brought the "because they're chaotic evil" argument up before, even if it wasn't in this specific scroll.
As to the specifics of your argument, my point is still the same. Things change, just like how they've changed in the real life world.
I never said things don't change. I don't think it is at all reasonable, though, for thousands of years of history to be swept aside at the drop of a hat, especially when the external circumstances haven't changed. |
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Rise of the King.. more Drizzt
