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Tamsar
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Nov 2013 : 22:41:45
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I sincerely hope that Wizbro take a leaf out of Paizo's book and start doing AP's in the realms or D&D Next. They really are awesome products, with a near perfect mix of "crunch and fluff". They even throw in some fiction as well in every issue. Am I alone in this?
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Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2013 : 22:51:32
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| No you're not alone in this. Everyone knows Paizo is eating Wizbro's lunch nowadays and, hopefully, WotC will do 'what works' and step up their game. Of course, this assumes they can get the FR back on track (I think they can). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 04:15:58
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| The adventure paths are good, but I prefer TSR/WotC sourcebooks to Pathfinder ones. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 06:06:20
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| An AP is, at the end of the day, a 93 page issue of Dungeon and Dragon magazine in one bundle. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 13:14:35
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I don't know - I've read both, and the DDi stuff just doesn't get me as excited as the PF AP's.
Not they are as good as the old-school FR sourcebooks, mind you, but when you are a starving man, hamburger can taste better then steak.
Thats a sideways way of me saying, "If they give us steak again, everyone will leave the damn hamburger alone." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 14:40:58
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| I'm just tired of the online only content. Personally, they had a bad model with DDI where they give people access to all back issues. All that that encouraged was people like me to sign up maybe once a year, download everything, read it their leisure. So, they got a single month payment for a year's worth of work. Personally, I'd recommend they go back to sending out a paper product, even if they only do it say quarterly and it has more content. They could leave up to half the content as online only, and simply have a section in the table of contents referencing these other articles that they didn't want to spend the expense to print. They could release the content online early so that they could keep the hype running for those that are into that, but for those of us who aren't going to follow it... your magazine shows up with both dragon and dungeon type content for 3 months worth of time and you pay a decent chunk of change for it. Then, how do you bill this? Same as you used to. Sign up for a year of dragon and dungeon and get your online content and physical issue for a one-time yearly non-recurring expense..... or just buy the issue without the special subscriber only online content. I'm not saying they couldn't still post some online content for free mind you. This pricing model they're currently using sounds very user-friendly, but not very business-friendly.... and they gotta think about their business. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6362 Posts |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 16:53:22
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If they try to do adventure paths like they did for 4e, I'll pass.
In any case, I'm not sure an adventure path really works for the Realms. Everything that happens in a Realms product (for the most part) is part of lore. An adventure path would in terms of the Realms would be near Realms shaking toward the end. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 19 Nov 2013 16:54:58 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 17:25:50
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You know, you raise a good point, Sir Urza - I don't think the 4e adventure paths were all that much different then Paizo's in general layout; perhaps that style of presentation simply does not work for The Realms.
Then again, I'm staring to come to the conclusion that anything they do will never be 'good enough' at this point. Not a knock on them... more a knock on us. Many of us are still looking for another 'OGB experience', and thats just not going to happen. You just can't recapture a 'first time' moment. Now they are stuck trying to create something as good as what Paizo is doing, but that has less to do with quality then it does with many of us having 'too high expectations'. Even if they produce one fantastic product after another, will it ever be 'good enough'? Is it even possible to recapture the magic?
At least, IMHO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Nov 2013 17:26:46 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 19:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Many of us are still looking for another 'OGB experience', and thats just not going to happen. You just can't recapture a 'first time' moment. Now they are stuck trying to create something as good as what Paizo is doing, but that has less to do with quality then it does with many of us having 'too high expectations'. Even if they produce one fantastic product after another, will it ever be 'good enough'? Is it even possible to recapture the magic?
I don't know. To be honest I don't have "OGB experience." I played some of the Dungeons & Dragons games at an early age on PC, not knowing that they had anything to do with anything. I just thought they were cool fantasy games.
My introduction to pen & paper RPGs was the West End Games Star Wars RPG, which I loved. It wasn't for a few years until our group switched to a homebrew set AD&D campaign did I know anything about D&D. I eventually made the connect of the PC games I liked with D&D and even took a look at one of the Realms books. I forget which one it was, but it was mentioned in the beginning of Menzoberrazan, as part of an advertisement for the book. I didn't actually read the book, but I checked it out. Sometime later I was given the Icewind Dale trilogy and that's really when I got into the Realms.
If I had a "OGB experience" I suppose it'd be when Burnt Offerings show up at my doorstep after converting my Dragon/Dungeon subscriptions over to Pathfinder. I took a chance with it and them and found I liked it and stayed with it since. I don't find myself as absorbed with the Inner Sea like I was with Faerun and that's quite possibly because Pathfinder is setup to be a clean slate setting and all of it's products (for the most part) treat it that way.
If you asked me what I want from the Realms, I want 1373 back, but we know that's not going to happen. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 19:10:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know, you raise a good point, Sir Urza - I don't think the 4e adventure paths were all that much different then Paizo's in general layout; perhaps that style of presentation simply does not work for The Realms.
Then again, I'm staring to come to the conclusion that anything they do will never be 'good enough' at this point. Not a knock on them... more a knock on us. Many of us are still looking for another 'OGB experience', and thats just not going to happen. You just can't recapture a 'first time' moment. Now they are stuck trying to create something as good as what Paizo is doing, but that has less to do with quality then it does with many of us having 'too high expectations'. Even if they produce one fantastic product after another, will it ever be 'good enough'? Is it even possible to recapture the magic?
At least, IMHO.
It's not an OGB moment, for me. There wasn't just one moment. It was the overall feel of several sourcebooks. And that is something they can readily recapture, if they try.
I think they can easily do better than Paizo if they can do that. Paizo stuff is good, but little of it has wow-ed me, and none of it has grabbed me the way some Realms products (mostly from 2E) have done. And this is from someone who gave WotC maybe $20 between the end of 3E and the release of the Elminster's Realms book -- the bulk of my gaming money has been going to Paizo. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Nov 2013 19:11:52 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6362 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 19:23:34
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My realms devotion moment came upon reading the cult of the dragon sourcebook.
I thought I knew quite a bit about the realms - especially the dalelands, having read about 10 sourcebooks (I was about 13 at the time). Then I read the cult of the dragon and realised that a lot of the history I knew about the dalelands was a lie created by auglorosa to hide her robbing various dragon hoards and treasure troves.
This moment happened time and again when reading Empires of the SHining Sea about Iryklagathra, and again with quite a lot of the 3rd edition books particularly Lost Empires of Faerun and the stuff about Netheril and Arthindol the Terraseer.
Its the constant surprises and bits you thought you knew that do it for me. I like finding out I was wrong and the truth is even better.
Unless they do historic lore I cant get that back, but things like the monument of the ancients article gives me some hope.
I want sourcebooks, sourcebooks, sourcebooks. Adventures are of no interest to me, I will write my own adventures, what I need are plot hooks and bits of interesting lore so that I can create ideas.
More Hlundadim, more Narathmault, more Halaster history, more Twisted Rune, more more more. |
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Tamsar
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 22:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The adventure paths are good, but I prefer TSR/WotC sourcebooks to Pathfinder ones.
I don't see the adventure path replacing source books. AP's are adventure modules with added goodness. If I'm honest the quality of the realms adventures were a bit hit and miss (Halls of the High King/Haunted Halls of Eveningstar being personal favourites, and at the other end of the spectrum, the Marco Volo series), and certainly in comparison to the source books. Heck 3rd edition adventures were rarer than rocking horse dung!
Do a regional source book, and then do an AP in that region, which has articles detailing stuff on a more localised level. That would certainly induce me to be interested at the very least. Do that and they may get some of my disposable income again. The only thing I've recently bought that wasn't a novel (and very few of those I hasten to add) was Ed's Guide to the forgotten realms, before that my last RPG related purchase was a Grand History of the Realms. When you consider that I had around around 95% of everything published since the OGB, that's a significant revenue stream they lost. |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 23:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamsar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The adventure paths are good, but I prefer TSR/WotC sourcebooks to Pathfinder ones.
I don't see the adventure path replacing source books. AP's are adventure modules with added goodness. If I'm honest the quality of the realms adventures were a bit hit and miss (Halls of the High King/Haunted Halls of Eveningstar being personal favourites, and at the other end of the spectrum, the Marco Volo series), and certainly in comparison to the source books. Heck 3rd edition adventures were rarer than rocking horse dung!
Do a regional source book, and then do an AP in that region, which has articles detailing stuff on a more localised level. That would certainly induce me to be interested at the very least. Do that and they may get some of my disposable income again. The only thing I've recently bought that wasn't a novel (and very few of those I hasten to add) was Ed's Guide to the forgotten realms, before that my last RPG related purchase was a Grand History of the Realms. When you consider that I had around around 95% of everything published since the OGB, that's a significant revenue stream they lost.
Oh, I know that the APs and the sourcebooks are not the same beast. I'm saying that I like sourcebooks better than APs, and though the Paizo sourcebooks are good, I prefer the ones we got during the 2E era of the Realms. Some of the 3E ones were quite good, too...
I like Paizo, but other than the frequency and page count of the source material, I think WotC is better off following their own older formula, rather than trying to adopt Paizo's formula and/or come up with something new. We had some great sourcebooks in the pre-4E Realms, and I don't think anyone else has really matched that. I would say that the best sourcebooks I've seen, aside from pre-4E FR stuff, were the Monsternomicon volumes for the first version of the Iron Kingdoms RPG -- and those very much brought to mind the monster books we had in 2E, which I still consider the gold standard of monster books. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Nov 2013 23:41:13 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 00:50:57
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I feel Paizo's various lines are giving FR's older material a run for its money. Certainly in quantity and production values (glossy full color) compared to the 3E hardcovers (160 pages split over a few kingdoms). Taken as a whole, an AP with internal location lore, adventure specific monsters and items, along with the associated Campaign setting guide, Players Companion guide, and any others provides more material than many 2E boxed sets.
Quality is subjective, but I think Golarion works for its intended purpose. I find its patchwork approach a bit too kitchen sinkish, but FR comes across the same way at times. The difference is Paizo delivers. People want support for this analogous region or that flavor of fantasy adventure, Paizo provides enough to get them started, at the least. If the topic becomes the focus of an AP, there is much more available. WotC relies on legacy products, which is ridiculous considering they removed their previous edition PDFs from sale for the entirety of 4E's active lifespan.
The integration between Paizo's lines tied to an AP event is a strength. They also tend to release on an tight schedule ensuring one AP presents an impressive collection at game stores. WotC spread their events over a year (Year of the Dragon, Year of the Drow, etc.) with fewer number of products.
WotC could do worse than produce something akin to Paizo's APs with the related support.
The Sundering modules are close, but should have been branded strongly as an AP equivalent and something they would do going forth. The Sundering should be Wizard's version of Rise of the Runelords.
The novels should have been branded as a supporting/auxilliary line rather than the main focus, but novels are WotC's butter to the bread of the D&D Core books, so I understand their reason.
I suppose that's the answer, until Wizards starts taking their adventures seriously as a brand/event on their own like the APs, they will just play second fiddle to the brand/events outlined in their latest novel series. I feel that has been a valid criticism of the Realms for sometime. It's not the NPCs and gods so much as the initiative, marketing, impetus is leaned heavily towards the novel side of the setting.
WotC is saying here's this awesome story with great characters in novel form, by the way, here's some modules for you to play along (as the grunts). They don't mean the last part, but the way they sell it doesn't help.
Paizo is saying here's this awesome adventure you can play, by the way, here are some stories that may add depth and perspective to the adventure and the region. Or if not, here's some stories on your favor characters doing something interesting while you're having fun on your own adventure. RSEs aside, the content may not differ all that much, but they sell it differently. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 18:56:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamsar
I don't see the adventure path replacing source books. AP's are adventure modules with added goodness. If I'm honest the quality of the realms adventures were a bit hit and miss (Halls of the High King/Haunted Halls of Eveningstar being personal favourites, and at the other end of the spectrum, the Marco Volo series), and certainly in comparison to the source books. Heck 3rd edition adventures were rarer than rocking horse dung!
Haunted Halls of Eveningstar is one of my favorites as well. I can't tell you how many times I've repurposed not only the dungeon but the whole adventure. One time I had zombies coming out of the Halls, good times. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 19:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We had some great sourcebooks in the pre-4E Realms, and I don't think anyone else has really matched that. I would say that the best sourcebooks I've seen
The 3e books were good.. but when I look at the people that worked on those source books I'm left asking myself a big question. How many of those authors are still available to WOTC.
Some of the 3e supplement authors are either working for Paizo now or don't work in the industry anymore.
Jason Carl I believe is working for Microsoft now. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 20:21:22
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| We had a lot of great material in 2E, too, and a lot of those authors were gone by the time 3E came around. Just because some of the older, talented creators have left, it doesn't mean there isn't a new batch waiting in the wings... We're to the point now that there are game designers that grew up reading some of those great FR sourcebooks of the past. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 22:23:48
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Paizo does a good job of taking areas of Golarion and running with it.
hadn't seen anything for the realms since the end of 3.x.....( 4e was garbage and it threw out alot of things like they were garbage...) |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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Adventure Path in the Realms
