| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Sep 2017 : 23:49:11
|
Personally, I would pull 'mankind' out of the original list and replace them with an insectoid race (like, perhaps, the spellweavers).
Humans can go with giants and dragons - 'secondary creators'. I'd say elves as well, but elves are already a creation themselves (of the Fey). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 21:21:10
|
***Casts RAISE SCROLL Again ***
Can't believe all of that was only a few months ago... man have I changed my mind about a LOT of stuff.
@Dazzler - Did you ever finish the timeline? There really is a LOT of great info in this thread (and yeah, I am back over this way again, because my 'historic map' made me have to think about what else was around).
@George Krashos - any input here and 'how things played out' in the Moonsea North (and strangely, I now lump The Vast into THAT, since Impiltur is technically part of The Unapproachable East.
The interplay between Barze, Horreb, and Vastar are very important to me right now. It looks like Barze fell just before the Year of Sundered Webs? Wouldn't it make more sense if it fell in that year (or immediately after)? Also, if Barze was up in The Ride, isn't there a tomb associated with that realm too far south for that? (and if lal of this was discussed in the thread already, apologies)
Horreb - could Horreb just be The People of the Black Sails mentioned in previous canon, and Brian James just finally named the place?
What if Horreb was more like a 'Mordor' type country? Or rather, your very generic, atypical 'evil dudes take over region and use orcs/humanoids as fodder' type of place? The Dark Three may have even been involved here. Then 'Big Bad' (that Orc/ogre hero figure) rises in vastar, and spreads HIS 'empire' west and then north, into Thar. At this point, Horreb would be on the decline (maybe its leaders died, moved on, or just turned on each other), and Horreb was 'folded into' Vastar. So we'd have Barze falling because magic fell (which makes the most sense to me), and Horreb not really fallng, so much as being 'absorbed', and as humans, dwarves, and elves pushed the orcs out of the Vast, the kingdom slowly migrated up and around the eastern Moonsea, until 'Vastar' (or what was left of it) was now completely in a new location. By that point, Vatsar may have already disintegrated back into quarreling tribes.
Thus, we have the Orcish kingdom infiltrating and merging with an Ogre-based one, which would keep all of the Thar history straight (in other words, both versions - orc & ogre - of the history would be 'true'). Horreb may have even been lead by Ogre-Magi (I think the timing would be off for the Dark Three, but they may have had some sort of involvment there - perhaps even bringing the ogre magi there form the east, in the first place).
Not loving the Imaskari for Horreb, but if we say the Dark Three (while mortal) were somehow involved with setting the place up, then the magic there may have been of a 'eastern' variety (Myrkul was from Murghôm). What if they brought a bunch of Ogremagi from the Taan lands - ogres that had access to Raumathari stuff? A small group that may have been operating out of Winterkeep or Fanlagh - Fanlagh might be better, since it is quasi-my creation (its based off of some unnamed canon), but Winterkeep would ground it in Realmslore better, and it also happened to be the old capital of Raumathar.
My problem is the timing of all this - timelines (and lineages) are not my strongest area. It appears Barze would have fallen at the same time as Nethril, but Horreb would have co-existed with Asram, Anauria, and Hlondath (and the early Elevn Court? Damn, elves are my weakness... I have no idea when they got to that region). For example, I do maps, and I still get confused every time I see 'Rystel Wood'. There is no such place! Stop talking about it!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 21:38:49
|
Okay, tried finding it. Its 'Rystall Wood'.
And the word appears in the GHotR without any explanation or description, out of thin air. Ya know, when you're a writer/designer, you should never just assume people will know what you are talking about. I am reading through the GHotR entries and STILL have no idea where the hell they are discussing.
I just found it on the map in GHotR (I also notice the Netheril map is simply a copy of the one that came int he box... mistakes and all {sigh}. So the 'Battle of the Bones' (the range of hills it happened in) simply did not exist at the time of NetheriL? The EXACT spot its supposed to be in is named 'The Flats'. So I should assume that range of hills 'happened' during the fall?
Sorry for the off-topic rant - I should have thrown that over in my Mapping thread. I have much to ponder ATM.
I recall having to research this once before, because NOTHING actually tells you where Rystall Woods was, except that one damn map. Can't we just say 'Border Forest'? The elves are all dead, no-one cares what they thought.
Or someone involved with the FRwiki make an entry for it! A simple 'see Border Forest' would be all it would take!!!
EDIT:
Just reading through parts of the scroll again - where did Varm come from?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2018 21:59:30 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 22:28:48
|
Okay, cool.
Above you said 'Varm' (as a kingdom, along with Horreb and Barze), but we were also talking about 'The Vane', and I was wondering if that was just a mistype.
Also went back and found Rich Baker's excellent article on Thar, which mentions Oni (Ogre-magi) involvement, and we also have some lore indicative that the Oni/Ogremagi may have taken control away from 'human masters', so we may be able to work all of this out.
I would have loved if Barze was another Netherese survivor-state; I think it was a mistake to place it so far back on the timeline (and make it so short-lived). Of course, there is an easy fix for that as well - Barze became something else after Barze himself left.
I now see Hlontar as well. Hmmmm...
I'm still liking the idea the Dark Three (as a very early part of their plan) brought some Ogremagi* over from Winterkeep (or some other 'forgotten fortress of Raumathar'). They could have created the early kingdom of Horreb, and were the people of the Black Sails - I am picturing a more 'eastern' looking ship-type than Faerûnians are used to, LIKE THIS.
*Or even Oni, and then created the Ogremagi with them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2018 22:47:39 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 23:08:34
|
Okay, some history...
Disenfranchised Low Netherse flee Netheril (which was rapidly become despotic due to the problems with the Phaerimm) and create a new settlelment to the NE called 'Pubz'. The Arcmage Barze shows up a few years later, and takes control of Pubz, renaming it after himself. Eventually, Barze (the man) was chased out of Barze (the realm) by the Netherese, who absolutely hated any sort of 'competition'. The realm was renamed after the archmage Diskôs, who lead the assault. Soon after, Nethril itself fell, and within three years Diskôs fell to the Horred, who came in the night and clubbed everyone to death (thus naming that region "Night Clubs").
Today, on the spot of the original settlement stands only a lonely drinking establishment & Inn, called 'Tavernus' by its Tiefling proprietor (it caters mostly to outsiders who have business on Toril).
 |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2018 23:10:11 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 23:22:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay, some history...
Disenfranchised Low Netherse flee Netheril (which was rapidly become despotic due to the problems with the Phaerimm) and create a new settlelment to the NE called 'Pubz'. The Arcmage Barze shows up a few years later, and takes control of Pubz, renaming it after himself. Eventually, Barze (the man) was chased out of Barze (the realm) by the Netherese, who absolutely hated any sort of 'competition'. The realm was renamed after the archmage Diskôs, who lead the assault. Soon after, Nethril itself fell, and within three years Diskôs fell to the Horred, who came in the night and clubbed everyone to death (thus naming that region "Night Clubs").
Today, on the spot of the original settlement stands only a lonely drinking establishment & Inn, called 'Tavernus' by its Tiefling proprietor (it caters mostly to outsiders who have business on Toril).
Didn't they once have a war with the peoples of Salune and Speakezy? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 23:38:26
|
NICE.
Those were the second and third settlements of Barze, after the capital of Pubz was founded... and the people couldn't get along with each other.
You might be speaking of that one-a-year celebration of their 'freedom' from Netheril, when all the people would get rip-roaring drunk (or, at least, drunker than usual), and they'd 'attack' the other settlements in a good, old-fashioned drunken donnbrook. Unfortunately, most of the drunken people from those other settlements also left, to do the same things elsewhere, which lead to a LOT of people waking up in other people's beds... where they sometimes just decided to stay if they felt like it. This sometimes annoyed the few people who didn't participate, but trading one group of rowdy drunks for another isn't really that big a deal, and sometimes the women found themselves with better partners (it definitely kept things 'fresh' - they were a bunch of hedonists in Barze).
Salune got its name after the goddess, and the moon itself. The people there were 'lunatics' - they'd get inebriated and literally 'bark at the moon' (they thought they were werewolves... but they were just stupid drunks).
Speakeasy got its name because of the penchant for the always-hungover inhabitants to constantly say, "Shhhhhh... speak easy" whenever others were being loud after a night of partying. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 00:27:41
|
| I thought that the Horreb were Thri-Kreen... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 05:26:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I thought that the Horreb were Thri-Kreen...
Were they? I have no idea. I'm just trying to figure-out what kingdom goes where and when.
Maybe they were Thri-Kreen that identified as Ogres.
{I guess I need to go back through the thread and read the whole thing again...}  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2018 05:28:02 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 13:30:36
|
Lots and lots of questions.
So Barze is a successor state of netheril as we know. Barze fled netheril just prior to its fall following some novel that i didnt read so dont know the exact reason why.
Varm is a tribal trader nation made of civilised barbarians from the Ride most likely .
The Vane i think are a tribe of Netherese influenced barbarians that arent nice.
Horreb we have almost nothing about. They are artificers, they helped make the cube to reimprison maram and Brian imagined them as thri kreen.
These proto nations were then all conquered/betrayed by tyranthraxus during the war to reimprison maram and its aftermath and then suddenly all these groups disappeared and a huge wasteland called Thar was created.
Thats the canon bits. Everything else is my theories.
The horreb are not thrikreen they are a spellweaver human hybrid. The spellweavers were outcasts from eril and had a number of linked pseudo nodes powered by primordial beings which they were using to keep themselves protected in an extradimensional space (protected from the effects of the grand conjunction which destroyed the spellweavers), they were able to possess humans ethereally like ghosts and so still lived a life of sorts while their bodies were in stasis. The Fall of Netheril and disruption of the weave screwed up their protection and the possessed humans merged with the spellweavers to produce multi armed insectlike beings with much magical knowledge.
Maram was imprisoned in the monument of the ancients for ages until the netherese released him to battle the enemy in the seven sigils war. Vorbyx was one of the lieutenants of Maram (or maybe the enemy), he was an elder ogre born of othea but escaped annams curse that degenerated his brothers into the ogre race.
After the seven sigils war he sided with maram and after his defeat he fled.
Tyranthraxus meanwhile conquered the kingdoms he had forged into an alliance to defeat maram and just at the moment of victory he was thwarted by a dragon known as embrurshaille who performed a great ritual to elevate her to another state of being or enhance her with super powers. This ritual drained all magic from the region (and life). It destroyed barze, varm, etc and everyone in it. Tyranthraxus's body was destroyed but he persisted as a possession spirit (power he already possessed when he served as leader of the trio nefarious before they bound him in slumber a millennia ago in netheril)
At this point in time thar is now the wasteland it is today.
Vorbyx arrives and establishes his ogre kingdom of thar. He attracts all the ogres from marams armies as well as several demon/ogres from the hidden vale (bred by the feyri and all kindred of storm the ogre).
The ogre kingdom strikes down its neighbour of northkeep using dragons (bought from iyrauroth). It unfortunately cannot afford the upkeep of iyrauroths payments so he destroys the ogre kingdom with an army (iyrauroth practices blood magic so he breeds powerful bloodlines to create races of supermen).
Ologh founds the orc kingdom of thar for iyrauroth and with his blood claim to the throne of vastar and thar he conquers all the orcs from thar to the vast. Iyrauroth then arrives to claim his payment from ologh but ologh refuses and we have a big battle and i think that is where the orc kingdom of thar ends.
Thats my brief outline of thar. Im still working on small details and when i finish with the old empires i might do thar (or moonshaes, or damara/vaasa).
|
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 21:27:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Thats probably a very simplistic view of Iyrauroths actions. He is known to have orcish descendants so he probably had his own army of draconic orc soldiers, and he may or may not have orchestrated the downfall of the kingdom of Vastar in the Vast by prompting the dwarves to exterminate them. He definitely moved into Mount Grimmerfang some point after the kingdom of Vastar ended.
Where is this from?
I'm especially interested if there is a canon source that mentions orcish descendants of Iyrauroth. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 23:32:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ologh is mentioned as the blood of Iyrauroth in one quote (although I cannot recall the source).
I cannot find anything with Google, except the article in Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions.
As my adventure is all about bloodlines, true heirs and modern claimants to ancient crowns, I'm very interested in more canon on Ologh.
So far, I've found that he was the Overking of Vastar until he died in the jaws of Iyrauroth in the Hollow Mountain in 572 DR, he was described as a 'monstrous' orc, he carried the Blazing Banner of Ologh into battle and he was Lawful in alignment.
Unfortunately, I don't have Dungeon #69, so I don't know if there are any more details on Ologh in the article, 'Sleep of Ages' where the Blazing Banner is mentioned. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 11:37:32
|
There are no further details in Dungeon #69.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 12:18:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There are no further details in Dungeon #69.
-- George Krashos
Thank you.
Are you aware of any suggestion, by yourself, Ed Greenwood or any other designer, that Ologh might have been dragon-blooded or with any other non-orcish blood?
Or that he had any connection with Iyrauroth prior to meeting death in his jaws? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2018 : 19:52:24
|
| I posted a new map snippet - not sure if it includes the stuff from that article. Its also FAR from finished, obviously. This was mostly done for layout purposes for adjoining areas. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 03:31:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There are no further details in Dungeon #69.
-- George Krashos
Thank you.
Are you aware of any suggestion, by yourself, Ed Greenwood or any other designer, that Ologh might have been dragon-blooded or with any other non-orcish blood?
Or that he had any connection with Iyrauroth prior to meeting death in his jaws?
No, can't see any reference to that in the sources.
It likely came from the feverish imagination of dazzlerdal!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2018 : 20:06:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I'm not sure I was particularly feverish when I made that up but the basis for the claim was Vorbyxs hammer which it is said only Vorbyx could wield, however other ogres have wielded it and so I decided on a familial connection. I realise the claim could be propaganda but that's fine, both can be true.
Then the orcs of Thar will also follow anyone who can wield the hammer so I figured it must have at one point been important to them as well do I figured why not have the founder of the orc kingdom wield it and even better make him the blood of Vorbyx and it tied in nicely to the bloodline magic I wanted to develop at the time so I ran with it.
The implication is there it's just not stated in black and white, although I often find the best realmslore is present by implication rather than statements of fact.
I suppose I'm wondering where you got the lore that Overking Ologh of Vastar ever owned or wielded the Hammer of Vorbyx, that he ever ruled Thar or had any connection to Thar.
I'm not arguing against it, if something links him to Thar. I still haven't re-read Emlimster's ecology of Thar and maybe Ologh is featured there.
It's just that I've only seen Ologh mentioned in the context of the gray orc kingdom of Vastar. From my perspective, there is no compelling reason to make him a ruler of Thar as well, as Thar seems to have been functionally independent from Vastar for the majority of history. Certainly Ologh did not claim the title Tharkul, at least not according to the sources I remember, and I'm certain he would have done so if he ruled Thar and held the Hammer of Vorbyx.
Ologh, of course, didn't found anything. He's one of the last Overkings of Vastar, not the founder of Vastar. There is no reason to assume that there were not innumerable Overkings preceding him in the thirteen centuries of Vastar history that come before him. If anything, Ologh is probably seen either as the last scion of a glorious line of orcish kings before the events of the Fall of Vastar or perhaps as an already decadent and degenerate descendant of far greater orcs in the past, living in ancient ruins he lacked the learning to rebuild and wallowing in the dwindling fruits of luxury he lacked the civilisation to create for himself.
It is true that Ologh had his subjects build him a throne in his court at the Hollow Mountain and that upon his death, this throne was contested by many claimants for the title of Overking. But I don't see much of a reason to assume that this new physical throne necessarily represented any greater degree of authority over land or warriors on Ologh's part than prior rulers of Vastar had.
Overking could have been a new title assumed by Ologh, I suppose, but no source mentions any such thing and given that Vastar fell shortly after his time, but had existed for as long as Cormyr before it, I don't think we need to assume that Ologh added new lands to Vastar. Especially considering the distance from Thar to the heartlands of Vastar, which makes it unlikely that any one ruler ever held sway in both lands. The dwarves of the Galenas certainly didn't seem to imagine any connection between the orcs of Thar and the orcs of Vastar.
Vastar existed as a kingdom of gray orcs in the modern Vast from -744 DR to 610 DR, with precursor orcish hordes and armies winning great victories over dwarves (and probably others) in the area between -1,068 DR and the official founding in -722 DR by Vas 'the Redeye'. Until -350 DR, it is unlikely that Vastar had much interest in the northern Moonsea lands that would become Thar, because they already bordered the much closer Cormathyr and Grong-Haap to the north.
Any interaction between Thar and Vastar would have happened after the fall of Grong-Haap and, thus, after Vorbyx became Tharkul of Thar. In the absence of other evidence, I imagine that the countries were neighbours and the usual mix of rivals, allies and enemies, at different times. Nothing suggests that they were ever the same polity and I've as yet not found evidence that the same ruler ever ruled both kingdoms.
The Sinking of the Northkeep was very likely accomplished by an allegiance of humanoid kingdoms around the Moonsea and Dragonreach, which may have included both an ogre kingdom and one or more orc kingdoms. Vastar was almost certainly involved, as was Thar, but whether Thar was, at the time, a unified kingdom or not, it is difficult to say. I do plan to scour my old 2e sources for clues, though.
It is entirely plausible that there could have been orcs in Thar, before and after the fall of the ogre kingdom, who might not regard themselves as subjects of the Overking of Vastar, but at various times as lords under the Tharkul of Thar or as independent kings.
A good example are the orcish kings who ruled in the eastern Thar at some point after 900 DR. They never mentioned any ancient glories of Vastar, but hearkened to tales of orcish lords and kings in Thar, as allies of the beast-men and ogres. There was even an orcish Hammer of Gruumsh that served as the orcish equivalent of the ogre-scale Hammer of Vorbyx, in being regarded as the emblem of a king of Thar for any orc warlord who could wield it.
Edit: In my campaign, I am considering whether there was an imperial period of Vastar history when the Overking of Vastar did rule over the orcs of Thar, as well as ruling the entire eastern shore of the Moonsea and as much of the Giantspire, Earthspur and Galena Mountains as were free of ice.
I'd just hesitate to postulate Ologh having had anything to do with that period, as my investigations indicate that the height of Vastar's power would have been between -350 DR and 512 DR, with a good guess for absolute height of power between 100 DR to 450 DR or so, and that Overking Ologh was the last great orc king, ruling over the decaying carcass of a far greater empire. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 15 Aug 2018 22:27:46 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Thar
