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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 11:56:52

Well onto my next project of fleshing out little detailed areas.

Thar.

I'm looking for all the information that exists on Thar so that i can define its history more consistently.

At the moment there appear to have been two kingdoms that ruled Thar.
The first an ogre kingdom founded by Vorbyx and ruled by a Tharkul who may or may not have been an Oni. This kingdom destroyed Northkeep and had a large capital city with floating bridges that has now disappeared.
The ogre kingdom ended 1000 years ago (even though the last Tharkul Maulog was killed in 1288DR which led to the founding of Glister and the human kingdom of Thar (slight inconsitency but nothing that cannot be explained away).

Then after the fall of the ogre kingdom, an orc kingdom appeared.
Its overking Ologh was slain by a dragon called Iyrauroth (who has some draconic orc children whose progeny survive today) in 572 DR.
This may or may not have signalled the end of the orc kingdom.

So any ideas to explain the inconsistency with the ogre kingdom (it falling 1000 years ago and yet its last king was slain 70 years ago). I favour the simplest solution in that a powerful tribe survived after the fall of the kingdom that kept Vorbyx's hammer and declared its chieftain Tharkul. When Maulog was slain the hammer was lost and so no one can be legally (if such a term exists for ogres) called Tharkul.

Where was this fabled ogre capital. In the centre of Thar is a lake (according to the elminsters ecologies map) and a hill range which is home to Fangjaw Hold (according to a 4th edition map - maybe in a dragon magazine). I'm wondering if the capital isnt buried in one of those. If it had floating bridges that could mean either they were magic and floated on air, or that they literally floated on the water and it now lies at the bottom of the lake.

How did the ogre kingdom end. There are some hints that it was ended by dragons. This may have coincided with them stirring up the dragons to attack Northkeep. Maybe they woke up Iyrauroth and he was responsible for the end of the ogre kingdom, then after a 2 centuries of sleep he killed the orc overking as well and ended that kingdom.

Anyways, any lore or ideas will be most helpful. This area looks to be pivotal in the development of the Moonsea and actually had a significant effect on Cormanthor as well so it would be nice to get some more detail about it.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 12:33:26

After plumbing through the Mysteries of the Moonsea i have found a few other tidbits that might prove useful.

1 - In one of the NPC write up it states he is obsessed with discovering more about Vorbyx being related to spirit folk. Spirits and Oni have a link of sorts, both being oriental in origin so i think this supports the Tharkuls of the original ogre kingdom at least being Oni.

2 - In the writeup of Northkeep in the Moonsea sourcebook it states the Dark Alliance landed on the city using Black Dragons. I think Iyrauroth is detailed as a great wyrm black dragon so maybe they were his vassals or family.

3 - In the writeup on Zhentil Keep it states that in 1276 the land of Thar had been retaken by the ogres and orcs. This may indicate that the last Tharkul Malaug found Vorbyx's hammer somehow (he may have been an ordinary ogre or what 2nd edition called an orog), and so declared himself Tharkul and the ogres and orcs rallied around his new kingdom.

4 - The Lone Tower in the Moonsea was the site of a great slaughter between humans and the ogres and orcs of Thar. The bodies were buried at Giant's Cairn. The timeframe only states "years ago", so that could mean it was quite recent in about 1288 perhaps. The lone tower is somewhere near the citadel of the raven and the 1276 mention above resulted in the Citadel of the Raven being reclaimed.
So perhaps in 1276 the ogres and orcs united again under Tharkul Maulog (probably with help from Zhentil Keep). The Moonsea cities reclaimed Citadel of the Raven from bandit. The ogres and orcs massed an army and marched on the Citadel of the Raven but were fought to a standstill at the Lone Tower. Then maybe Maulog died there or Beldoran slew him in Thar in 1288 when the newly found empire was weak.

5 - There are magical locations all over Thar. Vorbyx used these to help forge and keep his kingdom (according to Mysteries of the Moonsea). This might explain why the Oni came here, because of its spirit location links.

6 - Vorbyx prayed to Vaprak in an ancient tomb and received the hammer which was sized for a giant. Maybe Vaprak himself gave him the hammer. Maybe there is a ancient historic link between Vaprak and the ogres and Thar.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 13:02:27

Something i totally missed regarding Thar and the orc kingdom which i just noticed thanks to Markustay's quote from the City of Ravens Bluff on another thread

quote:
The deaths of many orcs in the mountains were ascribed to the great struggle for the throne of Overking (created by a monstrous orc known only as Ologh and left vacant upon his death in the jaws of the great Wyrm of the Peaks, the black dragon Iyrauroth).Warring factions among the orcs fought each other up and down Vastar for eight blood-soaked summers and winters, until Grimmerfang defeated (and ceremonially spitted, cooked, and ate) the last of his rivals, renaming Ologh's court of the Hollow Mountain "Mount Grimmerfang."

So where on earth is Mount Grimmerfang. According to Dragons of Faerun it is in The Vast region. This makes sense given the above quote is about Ravens Bluff.

That must mean that the kingdom of Vastar stretched from the Vast to Thar at one point.

The Lone Tower was built as an outpost against the humanoids of Thar and is a lot further south than the Moonsea's current borders.

This means the orcs potentially ruled a kingdom extending from Phlan (maybe even nearer to Zhentil Keep) around the north edge of the Moonsea (including the lands of Thar), along the western edge of the Galena mountains (maybe including Mulmasters current location) up to the borders of the Cormanthor forest - wherever they were. And extending south to Mount Grimmerfang in whatever mountain range that is (earthfast, earthspurs).

That is a massive kingdom. No wonder they needed an overking. There must have been several Kings each in charge of their own smaller subkingdom that swore fealty to the overking.

Iyrauroth now lairs in Mount Grimmerfang, but he must have laired in or nearer to Thar in the time of the Ogre kingdom, and then moved to Mount Grimmerfang after he slew Ologh (and possibly Grimmerfang as well) who moved into the hold first to rename it Mount Grimmerfang.

Maybe Iyrauroth has a history of manipulating the ogres and orcs in this region, he certainly seems involved quite a bit.

But mainly the size of the orc kingdom of Vastar - WOW!

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 13:36:32

Hopefully Dalor Darden will be along shortly - he's done extensive research on the Moonsea north as well.

We need to put this all together in the 'Impiltur Regional sourcebook', which should serve as the next CKC.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2013 13:36:50

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 14:06:29

I'm all for that. I would love to contribute in some way.

I read up a bit more in the city of Ravens Bluff.

Looks like the orc kingdom ended after the 670s thanks to the dwarves so sometime after that Iyrauroth must have moved into Mount Grimmerfang (which incidentally even the dwarves dont know which one that is now).

Given that Roldilar was present in the Vast after the orc kingdom it is more likely that Iyrauroth moved into Mount Grimmerfang after the fall of Roldilar (who would probably have occupied the old holds after taking them off the orcs, or at least dismantled them and built their own fortresses in their place).

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 15:05:56

The Vastar Orcs seemed to be of a 'higher order' then normal northern orcs, which is why I think they emigrated to the region from the Old Empires (thus making them Grey Orcs). That would mean their fortreses were much more likely to have been 'fixable' by dwarven standards, because they would have been much better then typical (northern) orc fortifications.

When most of them fled north to Thar (after the war with the dwarves), they would have encountered indigenous goblinoids, including green orcs. I think the green and grey orcs then mixed in that region, creating a superior 'northern orc'. These are the ones atypical of Zhentish troops (and seen in the Empires trilogy, and even received medals from Azoun!)

My other theory holds that hobgoblins are actually an ancient hybrid of goblins and orcs, probably bred by their draconic masters. Usually in genetics, two related but very different genus can breed, and create a much larger version then either of the parent races (like the Liger). The dragons may have even experimented with other bloods as well, like ogres, or even their own. The hobgoblins may be the ancient 'aristocracy' of the draconic goblinoid empires.

I am starting to put together another theory - that metallic dragons tended to enslave humans and demi-humans, and chromatic tended to enslave goblinoid and monstrous humanoids, back in the days when they had empires all over Toril. This may have created quite a bit of the animosity all these races have for each other.

And since we are connecting the dots', Abeir never had the 'Kingkiller Star', so the draconic empires would have survived into modern times. Abeirran dragons never experienced the Dracorage.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2013 15:07:30

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 15:59:02

NIce theories.

I am definitely with you that the orcs of Thar are Grey Orcs. They are very religious almost to the point of fanaticism (admittedly that is in reference to some worshippers of Kossuth but the premise still holds) and there is mention of tribes dominated by the tribal clerics which is definitely a trait of Grey Orcs.

Plus Thar is close to Vaasa which has Grey Orcs and both are close to Thay (kind of) where the Grey Orcs originated so the orcs could have spread north and west from Thay to arrive in the Thar.

I'm not too sure about the mixing with Mountain Orcs. Yes the naming of the tribes in Thar is unusual but i see nothing specific to indicate the orcs are Mountain Orcs (not that there is really anything culturally specific to indicate Mountain Orcs).

I have wondered which type of Orc inhabits the Moonsea region. They certainly gave the elves of Cormanthor enough trouble and they had shamans of some power (the trio nefarious) so my initial feeling is they are Grey Orcs as well.

However we know Mountain Orcs attacked Netheril on numerous occasions (the 100,000 orc horde) so it is possible the Mountain Orcs spread to the Moonsea and mixed with the Grey Orcs. There are significant geographical and empirical barriers in the way of the two sub races meeting though. The many many mountain ranges, the empires of Cormanthyr and Netheril.

So back to Thar.

I notice there are a lot of strange monsters that may be magical in origin in Thar, and with no apparent reason for their existence.

The bulette, ibrandlin, leucrotta, perytons, and manticore. That speaks to me of some kind of magical mutating or twisting influence. It may well be that this event was from way back in the past. Certainly it appears that the populations of the creatures have settled into some kind of balance with the native fauna. However, Thar is a near barren steppeland when there appears to be little reason for it. It is sheltered by mountains, coastal, and indeed next to some fairly fertile regions.

So some event must have caused Thar to be drained of life and maybe created the strange monsters in existence there today.

And finally onto Iyrauroth.

I'm definitely into the idea of him being some kind of throw back to the dragon overlords. An old dragon that fancies himself kind who manages to keep his empire together by sleeping for long periods of time (so the rage doesnt get him).

It looks like the ogre kingdom Vorbyx founded struck a deal with Iyrauroth to use his black dragon vassals (or progeny) as transport and heavy artillery in an attack on Northkeep.

This deal probably cost the ogre kingdom a massive annual tribute of magic, money, and lives to Iyrauroth. I'm guessing that eventually the ogres couldnt afford to pay it and so Iyrauroth toppled that kingdom.

The Orcs of Vastar moved in and created another subkingdom in Thar and it appears they were allied with or ruled over the ogres. Iyrauroth being a massively powerful dragon probably decided that as the ogres owed him tribute and now the orcs were in charge in Thar then the orcs of Vastar owed him tribute as well.

Ologh probably took exception to this and after a massive battle between orc and dragon (maybe a duel, maybe a battle with armies), Iyrauroth ate the loser.

And so ends the kingdom of Vastar in Thar (but not in the Vast, that continues for another few hundred years).

Thats probably a very simplistic view of Iyrauroths actions. He is known to have orcish descendants so he probably had his own army of draconic orc soldiers, and he may or may not have orchestrated the downfall of the kingdom of Vastar in the Vast by prompting the dwarves to exterminate them. He definitely moved into Mount Grimmerfang some point after the kingdom of Vastar ended.

I hope George or Eric or even Ed have some ideas or previously unknown lore about Thar that they would be willing to share.

Finally anyone have any sourcebook references for Hlontar or Alokkair?

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 17:05:31

Well, the grey orcs came form another world, and seem to be somewhat 'superior' (more civilized) then their Faer�nian counterparts. However, they are civilized in the same way Klingons are civilized - they are still very warlike (they are just better at tactics and such).

The mountain orcs are the true barbarians of Orcish culture, and since they were all over the Netherese empire (at least at first, before the pogroms of extermination), it stands to reason that many fled to the wild regions of the Moonsea north during that era (because the Netherese were expanding in the other direction, so the smarter ones wouldn't have gone that way). All the mountains along the northern frontier (with the glaciers) should be filled with Green orcs, from one end of Faer�n to the other.

Thus, in the lands of Thar and the Tortured Lands (who tortured them?) - very inhospitable regions that no one else wanted (lets recall the orcish origin myths) - the green orcs, and later the grey orcs from Vastar - could have found a safe-haven from enemies. Over time, they would have become just another (lighter skinned?) version of mounatin orcs - but 'better' (smarter) then those found to the west. The greater the gene pool, the greater chance for genetic improvements to creep-in, and there's no greater 'further afield' genetics then material coming from another world. When the two groups meet, the children should be something far superior to anything most Faer�nians would have seen up until that time. The Ondonti may just be a last vestige of some pure-blood, druidic grey orcs that got pulled through the Orgate, and wound-up where they are.

Unfortunately, the ogres there took control of them. I am thinking Ogrillons/Orags dominated as leaders amongst this burgeoning kingdom, which would explain some of the inconsistent lore (especially amongst the ogres and orcs, who both insist they were in-charge). Then when Aesperus showed-up, he took control of those Ogrillon chieftains and turned them into an empire (the 'People of the Black Sails' we read about). Then Aesperus falls, and the ogres and orcs go back to in-fighting, and occasionally one rises up to (briefly) re-create the old kingdom (but never as grand as during the time of Aesperus, the King in Copper).

We are missing an important piece of the puzzle - Bane's involvement in all of this. It may have been (mortal) Bane who originally united the tribes in the region, and Aesperus simply later 'followed in his footsteps'. Or Aesperus may have just been Bane's 'court mage', and after Bane ascended, Aesperus took over as king. We are not even sure at what point he became a lich. Lots of ways to spin things here.

*Edited due to naming the wrong lich

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2013 13:13:16

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 19:52:02

So I have been digging while I try and figure out what kind of orcs lived in Thar.

I think the answer lies with the Great Glacier.

-2465 DR The elves of Lethyr (in the forest of Lethyr in the Great Dale) use High Magic to halt the advance of the Great Glacier.

In 1038 DR the great glacier retreats from Vaasa, Damara, and Upper Narfell.

Now the Glacier of the White Worm is supposed to be a remnant of the Great Glacier (obviously it is kept alive by its own magic) so in -2465 DR the great glacier must have extended from the Giantspire Mountains and Narfell, across Damara in a line to the Southernmost peaks of the Galena Mountains.

Around the base of the Galena Mountains (not including Ironfang Keep) up to the Tortured Lands and across to the Turnback Mountains and across the top half of Anauroch to where the High Ice is now (of course it wasn't Anauroch back then.

So that means that any mountain orcs would only be able to access Thar through the Ride as it is the only place not covered in ice.

However Cormanthor was also much more expansive, covering the entire north shore of the moonsea that was not covered in ice, and probably including the border forest and sections of Anauroch as well.

Cormanthor was firmly controlled by the elves and would be an absolute deathtrap for any orcs.

Now we have evidence of an advanced human presence around the citadel of the raven and The Ride, whose ancestors supposedly exist in the barbarians of The Ride.

That means that the Mountain Orcs would not be able to access Thar until either the Great Glacier retreated (in 1038 DR), or until the forest of Cormanthor retreated enough to allow access.

The forest obviously retreated some by Netheril's fall, but by that time the humans were established in the Moonsea shores and Anauroch was already forming.

So I don't think the mixing of Mountain and Grey Orcs has been all that great in the area.

On the other hand, in the city of ravens bluff it states that orcs did log the forests of the Vast and sailed across the moonsea to its northern shores and so must have colonised Thar that way.

Therefore the orcs in Thar must have been almost entirely of Grey Orc stock. I do think some mixing of the different orcs did occur but this is because of Zhentil Keep's meddling, taking Mountain Orcs that have come north through Cormyr and the Dales and mixing them with Grey orcs from Thar to create strong, smart, loyal, disciplined orcs that it uses as soldiery and mercenaries.

That might explain why Vaasa is also of Grey Orc stock only. Damara and Narfell aren't know for their orcs (I would imagine the barbarians of Narfell are particularly xenophobic towards orcs). Those lands have only been habitable for 300 years and with human settlement so well established in Damara I doubt the orcs would have gotten through yet (they haven't really established in Calimshan in millennia thanks to distance and geography etc).
Therefore the orcs of Vaasa probably arrived through the Galena Mountains from Thar.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 20:05:14

It seems quite telling that in the entire Netherese diaspora following the destruction of Netheril. No survivors travel east, they all travel west or south.

Barze was founded before the destruction of Netheril and he left because he was being persecuted; so probably had no choice in what direction he left in. If the Negarath enclave was in eastern Netheril then he would not be able to migrate west through the heartland of the Netherese Empire.

The enclave of Jiksidur crashed in Narfell, but it was already over Narfell spying on those lands.

Nobody fled east, probably because the land was either glacier or the forest of cormanthor.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 20:38:59

It looks to me like Hlontar occupies the area around the Border Forest.

Rulvadar is listed as a rebuilt Hlundite and Hlontar fortress in -86 DR in GHoTR. In 479 DR Teshar falls to the forces of the twisted tower. Finally in 536 DR Hlontar is formed from the remnants of Teshar and Netherese survivors states survivors.

Now I think -86 DR is a bit of a gaff since it cant be a Hlontar fortress if Hlontar doesn't exist yet so either it was a Hlundite fortress built atop a Hlondite fortress (Hlondath having fallen a few years earlier).

Anyways, where exactly is Hlontar. Is it centred around Hulburg, if so that's a bit far for the Netherese survivors to migrate to.

Supposedly Teshar was centred in the cleared lands between RYstall Wood and Cormanthor.

Rystall Wood was north of the river Tesh, Cormanthor was south. The northern moonsea coast up to Phlan must have been the remains of Rystall wood between -2439 and -64 DR.

Now there are repeated references to orcs raiding COrmanthor and Rystall Wood throughout its history. The fact that they use advanced tactics in some battles supports that they are Grey Orcs.

In one reference it says the orcs raid throughout the year, the attacks are worse in winter. This could mean the orcs were driven from Thar by the cold winter to attack Cormanthor. In fact in the time frame of all the orc attacks the anauroch desert is forming or already formed so orcs couldn't have come from that direction and so are unlikely to be Mountain Orcs.

I think all orc problems in the Moonsea prior to the rise of Zhentil Keep can be attributed to Grey Orcs

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 13 Nov 2013 20:44:16

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 20:43:29

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

It seems quite telling that in the entire Netherese diaspora following the destruction of Netheril. No survivors travel east, they all travel west or south.

Barze was founded before the destruction of Netheril and he left because he was being persecuted; so probably had no choice in what direction he left in. If the Negarath enclave was in eastern Netheril then he would not be able to migrate west through the heartland of the Netherese Empire.

The enclave of Jiksidur crashed in Narfell, but it was already over Narfell spying on those lands.

Nobody fled east, probably because the land was either glacier or the forest of cormanthor.

Or maybe those who did flee east were small in number, or were not of great enough import for later mention.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 20:55:36

Yes I agree there are always going to be a few, but there must have been a reason why almost everyone chose to go west.

The east must have been less accessible, less welcoming, heavily defended, or any other reasons.

Ergo if the humans couldn't get there in any great number neither could the Mountain orcs.

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 22:19:56

Reading this thread made me go back and re-read the "Monument of the Ancients" in Dungeon 170 for the N-th time.

I stumbled on some information i hadn't absorbed the (N-1) times i read it in the past: south of the Kingdom of Barze (therefore either squarely in Thar or in northern Thar) there was the nation of Horreb, renowned for his "artificers" and these were the ones that knew how to open/seal the Monument of the Ancient that is a ziggurat and a planar portal.

Don't know why i didn't make the connection until now but: artificers + ziggurat + planar magic = Imaskari

This theory is supported by this passage on page 61 (last paragraph in italic): "In the end, Maram was driven back to the Inner Planes, locked away from the mortal world by a powerful Imaskari ritual known as Divine Barrier."
The same ritual stored inside the Horreb Cube the characters have to use in the adventure to shut Maram back again.

So there were Imaskari in the far north influencing the civilation that built the Citadel of the Raven and the Monument of the Ancient and Horreb may very well have been an Imaskari "successor state" much like Anauria and the others were for Netheril.

Furthermore it seems the Tortured Lands had already been "tortured" before the whole Sevel Sigils War (Journal Entry n�3).

To muck things up, despite being known from the Ironfang Keep article that the Dark Three went in search of Camnod the Unseen in the Glacier of the White Worm we have a "Camnod's Cairn" right to the east of the Border Forest, between Whitehorn and the Citadel of the Raven and a "Cenotaph of the Lost Gods" squarely in the middle of the Tortured Lands, and it's probably the place where the Journal Entry says the horselords of the Ride go to pay homage or something like that.

Does any of this mean something? Probably, maybe not, i'm just throwing ideas out there.

On a partially related note i confess my utter ignorance about the "People of the Black Sails" and, begging forgiveness, ask any learned scribe to point me to the sources where i can find something about them.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 08:46:10

Now off to read the monument of the ancients, there are some definite good bits of history there.

I didnt click that Horreb was located in the Thar because the map was rotated so i mistakenly placed it in the Ride to the west.

You are exactly right it would be centred dead on Thar and it might explain the weird mutations and barren land.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 09:27:37

So new musings thanks to Demzers pointers toward the monument of the ancients.

So in -357 DR the land exists as follows

The tortured lands were probably quite frozen and covered with ice (where better for a primordial to hide). Flindyke is referred to as Frozen Flindyke. So im guessing that the Great Glacier stretched as far as Flindyke and the river Pelauvir.

The Border Forest was part of Rystall Wood which extended as far as Phlan (which was created in 367 DR to facilitate trade between the humans of Thar, the dwarves of the dragonspine and the elves of Rystall Wood.
It probably didnt touch much on the Ride but certainly extended into at least part of the Tortured Lands because Myth Ondath is in the Tortured Lands and at one point that was called Yrlaancel and part of Rystall Wood (which fell in -64 DR)

So it looks like the Moonsea Region was entirely insulated from western Faerun thanks to the elves of Cormanthor and Rystall Wood to the west and the great glacier to the North.

The Ride was probably as it is today. cleared land occupied by the descendants of whoever created the Citadel of the Raven. The Rengarth barbarians mixed with these tribes after the fall of Netheril.

Barze was created in -457 DR in what little cleared land existed at the end of The Ride. It fell in -356 DR.

Horreb existed in an area probably centred on the Thar. It certainly used Imaskari magic and although i'm not convinced it was Imaskari that settled it, it could well be Nar. The Orcgate Wars occured in -1076 and the Nar and Raumathar were involved in that conflict and picked up much knowledge from the Mulhorandi (which in turn acquired their knowledge from the Imaskari). The Raumathari were noted for the constructs and artifice skills. Admittedly the Nar were noted for demonbinding, but this occured after the found Narathmault below the forest of Lethyr. It stands to reason that the Nar acquired the same set of skills as the Raumathar from their time in the Orcgate Wars.

The Nar are also noted for setting up a number of petty kingdoms over the century following -1069 DR (Ashanath being one of them) so maybe Horreb was a Nar petty kingdom setup between -1069 and -969 DR.

It is then not inconceivable for it to have survived up to -356 when Tyranthraxus finally laid waste to it. And this might explain the environment of Thar. It is said Tyranthraxus came from the wastes (maybe the Hordelands?) and laid waste to Horreb, that says to me he destroyed it utterly, possibly salting the ground like the Romans did with Carthage (or the magical equivalent).

So by 367 DR the only humans living in Thar and the Ride are primitive tribes such as the Varm.

Now onto the orc and ogre kingdoms.

I have a quote

quote:
331 DR Year of the Cold Clashes: The orcs of Vastar [�700, 512] launch an unexpected attack on eastern Cormanthyr late in this year, and occupy some of the lands east of the Elven Court for the next few years. The orcs spend the next years both solidifying their forces here and exploring the ruins of the ancient elf temple city.

This is the first reference to the kingdom of Vastar. Note that it is before 400 DR which was the attack on Northkeep and attributed to the ogre kingdom. All prior mention of orc attacks on Cormanthor just mention that they came from the east and were worse in the winter there were no names of kingdoms and no reference to Vastar.

So that means that either the Ogre kingdom in Thar was called Vastar (unlikely) they used orc slaves and drove them to attack the elves of Cormanthor in that year. These ogres were then later ruled by Ologh the ogrillon/orog who conquered the orcs of the Vast and created the title Overking.

Or Vastar existed in the Vast in 331 DR as a kingdom entirely separate to the ogres of Thar. This kingdom of orcs did not have an ogre king until Ologh (who had ogre blood and may have come from Thar) conquered all the other tribes in the Vast (and Thar) and became overking.

I personally prefer the latter string of events. The ogres were known for using orc slaves but were also separately referred to as the land of the beast men. If a horde had come from Thar it would have referenced the land of the beast men. Because it names Vastar that means the kingdom of Vastar existed in the Vast and later both Thar and Vastar were united by Ologh who became overking.

There we go musings over, i think the history of the Moonsea is really starting to come together. Interesting about the Horreb artificers existing next to the elves of Cormanthor for years and not getting a single mention. But then again prior to the creation of Myth Drannor the elves were rather superior and regarded humans as little better than orcs and so probably took no notice of them.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 10:36:38

Here is my version of the brief histories of the ogre and orc kingdoms of Thar.

The Ogre Kingdom of Thar: Long ago before the Age of Dragons, this land once belonged to the giant empire of Ostoria. Their bastard cousins; the ogres, forever lived in the shadow of their stronger kin scavenging off the scraps the giants left behind.
When the giants abandoned this area the ogres remained living in the hills and the mountains wherever they could find shelter and enough food.
During the Seven Sigils War which began in -489 DR and lasted until -371 DR the Netherese battled powerful beings from other planes in their desire for more power. During that costly war a powerful primordial known as Maram of the Great Spear escaped the conflict and fled into the Tortured Lands. There he called out to the evil and rejected races gathering them to his banner. Ogres were among those that answered his call.
In -357 DR the Dark Three (Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul) lead a coalition of races and nations to bind Maram to their will. There was a great massacre on both sides; of the 50,000 troops that were on the coalition side only 2,000 remained. Of the ogres, only a lone ogre of surprising strength and intelligence named Vorbyx is documented to have survived.
A being known as Tyranthraxus then arrived from the wastes to the east with an army of malformed beings known as the Twisted Ones. He destroyed the land of Barze and then turned south to Horreb and Vane. After destroying what remained of the armies of those kingdoms, levelling its cities and slaying its rulers Tyranthraxus was then consumed by the flames that imbued him.
His disembodied soul now burning with magical flame jumped from person to person scorching the land and mutating the wildlife. The beginnings of the Great Grey Land of Thar was born.
Into this wilderness came the lone ogre known as Vorbyx, lead by visions from his god Vaprak he found a cavern containing the tomb of one of the first ogres and in that tomb he found the hammer that would forever bear his name and be a symbol of his kingdom. A hammer of ancient Ostoria forged for the giants and claimed from the corpse of its owner by an ogre, maybe the first ogre.
With this hammer Vorbyx called a kingdom of ogres to him. Ogres came from far and wide to the fabled land of the beastmen. Oni too came from the lands of Rashemen and brought with them the knowledge of the spirit world.
These Oni became Vorbyx�s generals and advisors and he took a number for his wives creating progeny that would later rule the ogre kingdom of Thar.
Over the years a mighty kingdom with strong magics spread as the land of Thar spread. The Oni created many places with magic that were linked to the land and the spirits of the dead so that people could tap into their power.
Orcs came to Thar from a kingdom of orcs far to the south across the sea. This kingdom was called Vastar and the orcs were attacking the elves in the west. The survivors of those attacks fled into Thar and were enslaved by the ogres. Some of the line of Vorbyx even mated with these orcs to create ogrillons/orogs.
Then in 348 DR out of the ruins of the human tribes of the Moonsea the humans created a shining settlement called Northkeep on an island in the Moonsea.
The oni rulers of Thar knew what this meant. The humans would bring civilisation to the Moonsea they would breed uncontrollable, use up all the resources of the land and this could mean the end for Thar.
After many years planning the oni decided on a course of action. Allying with the orcs of Vastar the two kingdoms would destroy Northkeep forever. They needed transport to the island and so awoke an ancient dragon overlord in the mountains called Iyrauroth. In return for an annual tribute of a million gold pieces and 1000 orcish slaves the dragon would allow the ogres and orcs to ride on his dragon children and help destroy Northkeep.
And so in 400 DR Northkeep was destroyed and the island it sat upon sank beneath the waves.
For 50 years the ogre kingdom of Thar paid tribute to Iyrauroth, but in 420 DR the ogres could afford no more. And so in 451 DR Iyrauroth with a small army of ogrillons and orcs; with draconic blood, attacked the ogre kingdom of Thar and brought it low.
The ogres split into small tribes, each one claiming to be the rightful king of Thar, but none possessed Vorbyx�s hammer.
The Orc Kingdom of Thar: In 520 DR, an orc of exceptional size, strength, and charisma named Ologh came down out of the mountains (in truth this orc possessed ogre blood and the draconic blood of Iyrauroth in his veins). Claiming to be Tharkul for he bore Vorbyx's Hammer, he subdued the warring ogre and orc tribes that lived in Thar and recreated the kingdom of Thar with himself as king.
He rebuilt the cities of old Thar (with the aid of the Oni) and in his realm orc and ogre lived as equal for he was master of them both.
Then Iyrauroth began whispering in Ologh�s ear. The orcs of Vastar to the south were rightfully his as well. His orc blood came from the realm of Vastar and it contained many riches and many tribes to rule.
So Ologh and his kingdom of Thar went to war with Vastar. None could stand against Ologh�s might or that of his armies of ogres, ogrillons, and orcs. He conquered the orcs Vastar and declared himself Overking of the realm of Thar and Vastar and declared his capital of Ologh�s Hollow (where modern day Mount Grimmerfang exists in the Earthfast Mountains).
Then in 572 DR, Iyrauroth; being a greedy and grasping dragon at heart came to Ologh and demanded the tribute which Thar owed him. Even with all the treasure from the kingdom of Vastar Ologh could not hope to pay and so he attacked the great dragon. A titanic duel erupted and the orc fought valiantly, wounding Iyrauroth with Vorbyx�s hammer. In the end he could not hope to defeat his sire and Iyrauroth slew him mercilessly.
However Iyrauroth�s wound was so great that he was forced to retreat to his home in the Galena�s and was denied the treasure of Vastar and Thar. The orcs warred among one another for many years and Vorbyx�s hammer was lost (stolen by the Oni to be given to an ogre deemed worthy).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 11:03:34

Oh and just a few more thoughts this time about Horreb and Tyranthraxus and Thar.

In the monument of the ancients it says that tyranthraxus levelled Horreb and then he was consumed by flames and became a disembodied entity jumping from being to being.

What if these flames that consumed him and turned him into a disembodied entity of flames caused the wasting of Thar.

The flames burn the ground wherever they strike. He leaps from person to person burning the ground. Also Tyranthraxus leads an army of twisted ones, what if it is him that causes the twisting.

Maybe him leaping into nearby animals caused them to twist into the manticores, and bulettes and perytons and leucrotta that exist in Thar today. Or maybe those creatures are the army he lead into Barze, Horreb and Vane in the first place (although im not sure they are intelligent enough to follow orders).

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 11:10:25

I'm sorry to throw a wrench in this nice write-up but there are a couple more relevant references in both "The Monument of the Ancients" and "Ironfang Keep" that need to be taken into account:

1) (From "Ironfang Keep", "Last Days of Grong-Haap" section):
"Ironfang Keep was again occupied in -981 DR when Haask, a monstrous greathorn minotaur, declared himself priest-king and claimed the basalt fortress as the capitol of his burgeoning new kingdom, Grong-Haap. Over the next six-hundred years Grong-Haap slowly expanded to cover the modern-day wastes of Thar, the eastern Moonsea, and northern highlands of the Vast. With only an occasional clash with the elves of Cormanthyr or the orcs of Vastar, the minotaur kingdom enjoyed a level of civilization not common among their kind. Then in the late winter months of the Year of Craven Words (-350 DR), a goblinoid horde one-hundred-thousand strong marched against Grong-Haap from the Tortured Lands in the icy north."

2) (From "Monument of the Ancients", Journal Entries 7 and 11):
The city fell long ago to the unblessed creatures imbued
with the might of a magical pool. Chief among these were
Tyranthraxus, Edranka, and Torath. With their powers
they ruled and united all else, driving forward to destroy us
all.

And

...and there on blood-soaked fields of Grong-Haap,
Edranka�s goblin armies were swept away by Hargut of the
Gray Pestilence.

These raise some interesting points:
- From -981 to -350 the minotaur kingdom of Grong-Haap is calling the shots in the Thar-Eastern Moonsea-Northern Vast region, meaning the other powers (ogres, goblinoids, orcs) weren't strong enough to gain indipendence on their own or, in the case of Vastar orcs, to conquer territory held by the minotaurs;
- Between -356 and -350 there aren't goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears) anymore in Thar because they all went to war following Edranka (one of Tyranthraxus' buddies) against Grong-Haap and were used as cannon fodder and bait by the Dark Three to get Haask to summon Hargut;
- Many of the goblinoids of the Vast mountains probably come from the scattered remnants of the one-hundred-thousand strong army of Edranka;
- Tyranthraxus burned body after body possessing them and then was bound inside a vial of magical water in the Lake Longreach before being set free sometime prior to 1340 to do his business in Phlan as detailed in Pool of Radiance, Edranka probably died on the field of Grong-Haap and we are left wondering who/what Torath was and what became of him/her/it;

Hope this helps flesh things out better.

Edited by - Demzer on 14 Nov 2013 11:13:20

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 11:27:32

Well its not entirely unsalvageable.

Looks like the minotaur kingdom of Grong Haap (ruled by the primordial Hargut) and Maram of the Great Spear were the targets of the Dark Three.

This we already know. So they organise a coalition in -357 to bind Maram and thereby weaken the nations of Horreb, Barze, and Vane.

In the following year -356 DR, Horreb and Vane in modern day Thar are destroyed (and Tyranthraxus dies, burning a little portion of the land causing something akin to desertification which takes centuries to spread - in much the same way as our own deserts spread due to weakening soil quality and erosion).

The minotaurs of Grong Haap spread north into what will be Thar after -356 DR thanks to the absence of any organised nation in the area. Note it said they slowly expand so it may have been that they only recently gained a toehold in what would be Thar before they were attacked by Edranka.

Edranka is a bit miffed at people stealing the land that he wanted to rule and so runs back to the tortured lands and gathers up all the goblinoids he can find and takes 6 years doing it.

In -350 DR he marches against Grong Haap and is killed near Ironfang Keep and his armies are destroyed. The armies of Grong Haap are greatly weakened as well and the orcs of Vastar take control of most of the former lands of Grong Haap (The Vast). I cant remember when Hargut is killed but this whole turn of events was probably orchestrated by the Dark Three to weaken and destroy Maram and Hargut.

Then things carry on as normal with Vorbyx creating the kingdom of Thar and the realm of Vastar being created at a similar time as well.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 13:20:22

Not a big fan of the Imaskari being that far north - more of the 'everything, everywhere' phenomena we saw creep-in during 4e. I guess the idea was to make all of FR's 'toys' more accessible, but it washed the flavor out of individual regions, IMO.

Weirdly, however, I have pegged the leaders of Thaeravel as Imaskari who fled before the war that wiped them out. Not the people - those were Talfir. I have it where Hilather lead some artificers there, built their 'Alabaster Towers', and ruled over the local populace. Thats homebrew, of course, but at the end of the day, isn't everything?

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

I'm sorry to throw a wrench in this nice write-up but there are a couple more relevant references in both "The Monument of the Ancients" and "Ironfang Keep" that need to be taken into account: <snip>

If some bit of lore doesn't fit your outline, just ignore it. Why should we hold to a higher standard then some designers do? If its in your way, throw it away.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2013 13:28:08

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 13:58:36

Well here are the ancient kingdoms i have in that area now. I dont think i have ignored any bit of lore, none of it really contradicts, the rumours and legends all fit if you accept that there were two kingdoms of Thar and ogre kingdom and an orc kingdom (i called it Thar because i cant think of another name for it and the ruler was a Tharkul which may have meant king of Thar in ogre or orc or giant whatever it was.

Horreb: A nation of artificers with access to Imaskari magic that existed in what is now known as the land of Thar. The artificers of Horreb were most likely a Nar petty kingdom created between -1069 and -969 DR following the return of the Nar and Raumathar mercenaries from the Orcgate Wars.
In -357 DR the Dark Three (Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul) lead an alliance of the wizards of Barze, the artificers of Horreb, the horse nomads of Varm, the gnolls of Flindyke, the goliaths of Akoro, and the gnomes of Forharn against the primordial Maram of the Great Spear. Maram was imprisoned in a ritual cube at the monument of the ancients. Barze the arcanist is assassinated by Bhaal.
In the following year -356 DR Tyranthraxus and his army of Twisted Ones attacked and conquered Barze and then turned his armies south to attack Horreb and Vane. Tyranthraxus slew the ruler of Horreb and his armies laid waste to the land. The environmental devastation wrought by the destruction of Horreb gradually expanded to form the land of Thar.
By the time of 367 DR the elves of Cormanthor the dwarves of the Dragonspine, and the human tribes of the northern Moonsea were in diplomatic talks to improved trade and better relations between the three.
The elves desired an end to the logging of the woods and so an agreement was reached. The humans could claim the land as far as the river Tesh. In return the elves would help limit the expansion of the land of Thar. As part of the deal the three races constructed the city of Phlan and the elves used High Magic to create the Quivering Forest which would forever resist the spread of Thar by regrowing any damage done to it in a single day.
Vane: A loose alliance of barbarian holdings that began as life as trading partners of Horreb and Barze and began learning the trappings of civilisation from these kingdoms. It existed in the Southern Thar closer to the coast of the Moonsea.
In -356 DR the holdings were levelled by Tyranthraxus and his army of Twisted Ones, the barbarians then returned to a nomadic existence on the shores of the Moonsea.
The Ogre Kingdom of Thar: Long ago before the Age of Dragons, this land once belonged to the giant empire of Ostoria. Their bastard cousins; the ogres, forever lived in the shadow of their stronger kin scavenging off the scraps the giants left behind.
When the giants abandoned this area the ogres remained living in the hills and the mountains wherever they could find shelter and enough food.
During the Seven Sigils War which began in -489 DR and lasted until -371 DR the Netherese battled powerful beings from other planes in their desire for more power. During that costly war a powerful primordial known as Maram of the Great Spear escaped the conflict and fled into the Tortured Lands. There he called out to the evil and rejected races gathering them to his banner. Ogres were among those that answered his call.
In -357 DR the Dark Three (Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul) lead a coalition of races and nations to bind Maram to their will. There was a great massacre on both sides; of the 50,000 troops that were on the coalition side only 2,000 remained. Of the ogres, only a lone ogre of surprising strength and intelligence named Vorbyx is documented to have survived.
A being known as Tyranthraxus then arrived from the wastes to the east with an army of malformed beings known as the Twisted Ones. He destroyed the land of Barze and then turned south to Horreb and Vane. After destroying what remained of the armies of those kingdoms, levelling its cities and slaying its rulers Tyranthraxus was then consumed by the flames that imbued him.
His disembodied soul now burning with magical flame jumped from person to person scorching the land and mutating the wildlife. The beginnings of the Great Grey Land of Thar was born.
In -349 DR into this wilderness came the lone ogre known as Vorbyx, lead by visions from his god Vaprak he found a cavern containing the tomb of one of the first ogres and in that tomb he found the hammer that would forever bear his name and be a symbol of his kingdom. A hammer of ancient Ostoria forged for the giants and claimed from the corpse of its owner by an ogre, maybe the first ogre.
With this hammer Vorbyx called a kingdom of ogres to him. Ogres came from far and wide to the fabled land of the beastmen. Oni too came from the lands of Rashemen and brought with them the knowledge of the spirit world.
These Oni became Vorbyx�s generals and advisors and he took a number for his wives creating progeny that would later rule the ogre kingdom of Thar.
Over the years a mighty kingdom with strong magics spread as the land of Thar spread. The Oni created many places with magic that were linked to the land and the spirits of the dead so that people could tap into their power.
Orcs came to Thar from a kingdom of orcs far to the south across the sea. This kingdom was called Vastar and the orcs were attacking the elves in the west. The survivors of those attacks fled into Thar and were enslaved by the ogres. Some of the line of Vorbyx even mated with these orcs to create ogrillons/orogs.
Then in 348 DR out of the ruins of the human tribes of the Moonsea the humans created a shining settlement called Northkeep on an island in the Moonsea.
The oni rulers of Thar knew what this meant. The humans would bring civilisation to the Moonsea they would breed uncontrollable, use up all the resources of the land and this could mean the end for Thar.
After many years planning the oni decided on a course of action. Allying with the orcs of Vastar the two kingdoms would destroy Northkeep forever. They needed transport to the island and so awoke an ancient dragon overlord in the mountains called Iyrauroth. In return for an annual tribute of a million gold pieces and 1000 orcish slaves the dragon would allow the ogres and orcs to ride on his dragon children and help destroy Northkeep.
And so in 400 DR Northkeep was destroyed and the island it sat upon sank beneath the waves.
For 50 years the ogre kingdom of Thar paid tribute to Iyrauroth, but in 450 DR the ogres could afford no more. And so in 451 DR Iyrauroth with a small army of ogrillons and orcs; with draconic blood, attacked the ogre kingdom of Thar and brought it low.
The ogres split into small tribes, each one claiming to be the rightful king of Thar, but none possessed Vorbyx�s hammer.
The Orc Kingdom of Thar: In 520 DR, an orc of exceptional size, strength, and charisma named Ologh came down out of the mountains (in truth this orc possessed ogre blood and the draconic blood of Iyrauroth in his veins). Claiming to be Tharkul; for he bore Vorbyx�s Hammer, he subdued the warring ogre and orc tribes that lived in Thar and recreated the kingdom of Thar with himself as king.
He rebuilt the cities of old Thar (with the aid of the Oni) and in his realm orc and ogre lived as equal for he was master of them both.
Then Iyrauroth began whispering in Ologh�s ear. The orcs of Vastar to the south were rightfully his as well. His orc blood came from the realm of Vastar and it contained many riches and many tribes to rule.
So Ologh and his kingdom of Thar went to war with Vastar. None could stand against Ologh�s might or that of his armies of ogres, ogrillons, and orcs. He conquered the orcs Vastar and declared himself Overking of the realm of Thar and Vastar and declared his capital of Hollow Mountain(where modern day Mount Grimmerfang exists in the Earthfast Mountains).
Then in 572 DR, Iyrauroth; being a greedy and grasping dragon at heart came to Ologh and demanded the tribute which Thar owed him. Even with all the treasure from the kingdom of Vastar Ologh could not hope to pay and so he attacked the great dragon. A titanic duel erupted and the orc fought valiantly, wounding Iyrauroth with Vorbyx�s hammer. In the end he could not hope to defeat his sire and Iyrauroth slew him mercilessly.
However Iyrauroth�s wound was so great that he was forced to retreat to his home in the Galena�s and was denied the treasure of Vastar and Thar. The orcs warred among one another for many years and Vorbyx�s hammer was lost (stolen by the Oni to be given to an ogre deemed worthy).
Grong-Haap: In -981 DR, Haask; a greathorn minotaur (secretly a batrachi elder doppleganger) claimed the fortress of Ironfang Keep on the south-eastern shores of the Moonsea. He declared himself Priest-King and gathered about him a nation of minotaurs that slowly expanded to cover the northern highlands of the Vast, the eastern Moonsea and eventually the lands that would be Thar.
In -350 DR, Edranka a general that formerly served Tyranthraxus, lead a horde of goblinoids 100,000 strong out of the Tortured Lands and made war on Grong-Haap. It was on the southern shores of the Moonsea that the armies of Edranka and Grong-Haap were annihilated by the primordial Hargut that was summoned from the depths of Ironfang Keep by Haask to defend his realm.
Once victorious Haask returned to his keep and was slain by Bhaal of the dark three before being bonded to Hargut forever.
Grong-Haap quickly fell to infighting with it�s Priest King slain, and the orc realm of Vastar took the lands for themselves.

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 14:38:04

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If some bit of lore doesn't fit your outline, just ignore it.

Oh but it does fit, quite nicely as dazzlerdal re-adjusted things on the fly to accomodate everything.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why should we hold to a higher standard then some designers do? If its in your way, throw it away.

Well, personally i think is because we care, so no matter what happens, we try to fit everything nicely together and throw out just the ideas that are so much not Realmsian that would wreck more than they would fix by being inside the picture. Since that's highly subjective, each of us is left with some fine tuning to do for our own Realms campaign in our own Realms.

Case in point, the canonical lore by Mr. B. R. James and Mr. M. James is rich of references and hints to events that weren't covered enough in the past, it's "good" lore, it fits nicely in the big picture and it doesn't ruin the feel of the Realms so ... why not include it?

I understand your frustration Markustay, reading and re-reading a lot of past products i often wonder why someone decided to throw it all away and i feel bitter about the recent past. But there is always something salvageable, there is always something worth knowing somewhere in the middle of an ocean of Calishite genasi (really?!? REALLY?!?!? who thought of THAT?!?), "new" undead wastelands and elven girls getting pregnant at age 12.

So instead of focusing on the obvious failings of 4e i give my attention to the little nuggets of lore i can port to my home Realms campaigns or that can inspire me in some ways, like the "Eyes on the Realms" or "Forging the Realms" columns, the "Backdrops" and some adventures i'll have to completely rewrite form a game mechanics point of view but that have interesting twists, introduce useful npcs or explore secrets and mysteries i can explain and explore one century earlier in my campaigns.

Does it mean i'm a 4e enthusiast? Absolutely NOT!
Does it mean i'm happy about what happened with the Spellplague and the time jump? Absolutely NOT!
Does it mean i will give up on the Realms because someone somewhere made a long streak of mistakes? Absolutely NOT!
Does it mean i will actively support the RealmsNext? This is up to THEM, i'll be here, in MY home Realms, thankful for what past and present designers and authors have done and will judge harshly what comes next. If it's good, i'll be in, if it's bad i'll be out and either way i won't feel bad for my choice and i will keep enjoing my gaming sessions.

Sorry for the intermission dazzlerdal.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 15:12:22

Tis fine, if the topic gets derailed with an anti 4E or WOTC rant that i am likely to join i will just post more stuff about Thar

Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 16:01:25

Love the lore flowing in this thread. Just want to pop in and throw out this little nugget: What if Horreb is not a human civilization at all? Imagine instead that Horreb is a thri-kreen kingdom ruled by an elite caste of spellweavers (with knowledge of Imaskari artifice). Check out this thread from 2010.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 16:21:21

Well it is certainly a possibility i just cant envisage how Thri-Kreen manage to get from wherever to the Moonsea and then also manage to get hold of Imaskari magics.

However that being said in the elminsters ecologies books it mentions all over it about the weird creatures that live in thar have to have been magically created.

Tyranthraxus leading an army of Twisted Ones cannot be a coincidence. I do think that whatever Tyranthraxus was, he had a mutagenic effect on those around him.

So maybe the Horreb were originally humans from Narfell that picked up Imaskari spellcasting traditions. When Tyranthraxus conquered them, whatever people survived the onslaught were horribly twisted or merged with nearby creatures (insects and vultures etc) into Thri-kreen and Perytons. Then the bulette, manticores, and leucrotta were all created by the twisting/amalgamating/mergin of native wildlife.

Maybe Tyranthraxus wasnt responsible for the magically created creatures directly but instead he interrupted some kind of magic ritual that Horreb was going to use to protect itself and in doing so everyone got mixed with other things, and Tyranthraxus himself became a disembodied spirit.

I think i prefer the first theory that Tyranthraxus caused those around him to mutate, he may well have been some kind of primordial creature in service to the Dark Three so would have had some extraordinary powers. Of course his death altered him so that he lost the mutating ability and instead gained the ability to possess people.

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 17:27:33

I've got a few things I can add soon. The Tyrant Hraxus...later called Tyranthraxus...is responsible for the Horreb culture failing.

I do indeed believe that the Thri-Kreen of the area were the Horreb, and I'll get back to why in a bit...stay tuned!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 13:52:56

I havent really looked into Tyranthraxus too much, although i admit he is very interesting and mysterious.

I think you will need some darn good sources or well formed arguments to back up a nation of Thri-Kreen in the Moonsea that no one knew about previously.

Even the paragraph from the monument of the ancients states the arcanists of Barze, artificers of Horreb, Goliath of Akoro, Gnolls of Flindyke, and Gnomes of Far-whatever. If the Horreb were thri kreen i would expect that sentence to read Thri-kreen of Horreb.

The titles of the Barze and Horreb are used i think because they are human (we know the Barze are human).

But anyway, i digress and i still really want to hear your ideas for Tyranthraxus and Horreb because i am running out of things for Thar.

The main untouched but distinguishing features of Thar were the ancient and lost kingdoms in the area (which i think i have covered) and the magically created creatures (which i also covered).

I suppose i could do a focus on the orcs and ogres of Thar and their history and culture etc, but Elminsters Ecologies does a pretty could job of their current state (better than i could do anyway) and i was hoping to get round to covering orcs in a submission for the candlekeep compendium.

Anything else in Thar of interest that people can think of that i havent touched upon yet?

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2013 : 14:18:29

More researching on Thar has revealed a few interesting things.

1 - In the officially unofficial but good enough for me Bestiary of the Realms volume I, it details Elder Ogres and links them to the kingdom of Thar.

Therefore Vorbyx may have been an elder ogre - what the race of ogres should have been before Annam cursed them into the degenerate race they are today.

So in order for Vorbyx to be an elder ogre he must have escaped Annam's wrath at some point. Some elder ogres migrated to the far east (could they be the giants in grey we read about in GHoTR about Shou Lung).

My idea is that Vorbyx escaped into the planes, and came to serve none other than Maram of the Great Spear. When Maram came to Faerun he brought Vorbyx with him who helped create an ogre and orc army for Maram in the tortured lands.

When the Dark Three forged the alliance and destroyed Maram's armies the ogres and orcs would have been dispersed throughout the Ride, Tortured Lands and the Moonsea as scattered groups.

When Barze and Horreb were destroyed the ogres and orcs migrated into the empty space and so to did Vorbyx.

He united the tribes over time (according to Mysteries of the Moonsea) and forged them into an empire. The Oni probably arrived later either migrating to Thar to join Vorbyx's kingdom, or they are Vorbyx's children - the result of an elder ogre mating with an ogre to produce an Oni.

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 00:27:57

That actually sounds solid!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2013 : 09:11:01

Thanks, now i'm just waiting on your Thri-Kreen info Dalor, see if i can borrow any ideas from it.

If anyone's interested i have pretty much finished the Thar regional guide if you want a copy (not much canon information to go in it i'm afraid so most of it is my own ideas and weaving together of the few bits of lore we do have, figuring out what the geography and political situation was like all that time ago wasnt easy), quite bizarrely there was more information in the Vaasa regional guide which I also just finished.

Now i need a new area to focus on. Maybe i will just carry on and do the entire Moonsea, although that is an entire campaign in itself rather than just a regional focus.

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