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Ezekil
Acolyte
Norway
22 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 21:35:27
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Hello Candlekeep.
Ive searched a bit for this topic using google and such.
It seems this fine forum has a few "most powerful casters, wizards, clerics, druids, etc" threads - but I found none about Rogues (or Thieves).
The closest thing I found was one about assassins.
In the assassin thread it was said a few times that the best assassin was not described in the lore because nobody would know of himher anyways.
I know this could be true for a Rogue too, but I'm still interested in knowing if there are some high-level, high-ranking, powerful, infamous thieves and rogues in the Faerūn lore.
Even looking at the highest ranking members of most criminal organizations, I find casters (with a few levels in thief or rogue).
So far, off the top of my head, I can list the following:
-Erevis Cale (and his comanions): more cleric than rogue?
-Regis: more famous than powerful because of his companions?
-Victor Dhostar: one of the few pure high level (17th) thieves I found in AD&D sources.
-Ghost: More about magic items than personal prowess and skill? AD&D had him statted as a 5th level thief.
-Fox at Twilight: Seems to be a good one to place in this category.
-Morik the Rogue: Not really a big player in my opinion.
-Torm (not the god): Not sure how great he was, maybe someone could enlighten me?
-Malik: No idea how much this guy was capable of. He seems to know his way around a dagger and the shadows though.
So, any suggestions? Is there no room for these sneaky scoundrels in a world full of epic spellcasters?
-Thanks.
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Ezekil
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance" |
Edited by - Ezekil on 08 Nov 2013 21:38:46
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 22:41:16
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| In the grand scheme of the Realms, Morik was pretty small. He did managed to survive his encounters with Bregan D'aethe, which says a lot about him as a fighter. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 01:15:14
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| You're always going to run into casters in criminality because so many rely on Magic to secure against mere thieves. The truly talented rogues are smart enough to multiclass. That gives you characters like Elaith Craulnober, Young Elminster etc.... |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 02:37:11
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I would like to nominate Valas Hune, from Bregan Daerthe. In pure skill level, he's about as good a rogue as you will find. Excellent thief, even better scout and tracker, decent fighter, and has a ton of magical items to get the job done.
I would also throw in Artemis Entreri. He's most well known as an assassin, but if you read RAS books, his skills at thievery, manipulation, and escaping impossible situations are all expert level.
Can't forget Jarlaxle Baenre, who embodies the rogue archetype better than almost anyone.
You mentioned Fox at Twilight (Ilira) from the Shadowbane novels, but don't forget Fayne! She seduces the rich and powerful for a living, plus she's a great spy. Lilten is a fantastic rogue too, and he's arguably more clever than anyone else I've mentioned.
Despite being a god, Mask gets major props, because he pulled the wool over Shar's eyes! She's the goddess of darkness and secrets, plus she's always portrayed as an extremely competent schemer. Anybody who can trick Shar is worthy of worship.
If you've read the Brimstone Angels novels, you know that Tam (who is a Harper) is a pretty awesome rogue.
Yes, Manshoon is an archwizard, but he belongs here too. His schemes always get foiled, but he gets major brownie points for aiming so high! Who else has tried to take over Cormyr and Westgate? Is Waterdeep next?
Another wizard choice would be Aoth Fezim. His mind definitely works like a rogue's, and he lives a mercenary lifestyle.
Arvin from the "House of Serpents" trilogy was a slick little rogue.
I might be able to think of more later. |
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Ezekil
Acolyte
Norway
22 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 11:40:42
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So my asumption about "no place for more or less pure classed higher level thief\rogue's in the Realms" seems to hold water?
The only one i can find is Victor, and he's dead, right? |
Ezekil
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 12:25:49
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Malik has been part of and survived several major RSEs. Not to mention he literally played the gods.
Dmitra Flass, though more an archmage, must be a very capable rogue/thief/assassin too. She used to head the major spy network in Thay, pre-Szass Tam of course.
Malark Springhill was a monk, rogue, assassin, then later wizard who was the chief lackey of Dmitra.
There was this unnamed thief (from The Haunted Lands) whom Dmitra contacted and who was allegedly the leader of a major thieves' guild in some neighboring ream. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 13:54:59
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I'm a bit confused by this thread.
Are you asking for "roguish" characters (as in, characters with a reputation for skulking, thieving and great escapes with or without actual levels in the thief/rogue class depending on edition or even without having ever been statted) or for thief/rogue characters (as in, characters with levels in the thief/rogue class depending on edition and with packages/prestige classes related to roguish business)?
If it's the former then anything goes and a lot of novel protagonists have one or two great escapes without a single thief/rogue level, if it's the latter than some of the suggestions are wrong (no offense to the Sage of Shadowdale but his 2 rogue levels make him at best an amateur in game terms).
You found this thread? http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18483
And since you're asking about pure or mostly pure rogues then all the mid-to-upper echelon of the Shadow Thieves, the Night Mask (pre 4e), the Shadowmasters of Teflamm and other minor organizations fit the bill being between levels 10-18.
Other notable pure rogue/thieves are:
- Rekx Tihler (2e, T 15) of the Shadow Thieves of Riatavin
- Renal "the Bloodscalp" (2e, T 16) of the Shadow Thieves of Athkatla
- Daud (2e, T 15) of the Rundeen-sponsored adventuring band "The Clenched Fist"
- Sorenth Gorender (3e, vampire R 8 / Guild Thief 5) of the Night Masks of Westgate (killed of in 4e)
- Spymaster Bellaq yn Effen "the Silver Spider" (2e, T 18) of the Spies' Guild of Calimshan |
Edited by - Demzer on 09 Nov 2013 13:56:32 |
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Tamsar
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 14:26:42
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| Bloodstone Lands has a few high level Rogues admittedly a 2nd ed source: Cat-One Eye 21st Level Rogue, a "snuffer" a contract killer. A half elf so could conceivably still be alive. Celdaon Kierney 24th Level Thief Acrobat/8th level Mage, Tarkos Ree 24th level rogue and guildmaster of Tightpurse in Heliogabalus. Celadon stole the Wand of Orcus, doesn't get much more epic than that! I always liked Garth The Gimble - The Snake of Selgaunt, just because of all that alliteration. |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
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Ezekil
Acolyte
Norway
22 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 16:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I'm a bit confused by this thread.
Are you asking for "roguish" characters (as in, characters with a reputation for skulking, thieving and great escapes with or without actual levels in the thief/rogue class depending on edition or even without having ever been statted) or for thief/rogue characters (as in, characters with levels in the thief/rogue class depending on edition and with packages/prestige classes related to roguish business)?
If it's the former then anything goes and a lot of novel protagonists have one or two great escapes without a single thief/rogue level, if it's the latter than some of the suggestions are wrong (no offense to the Sage of Shadowdale but his 2 rogue levels make him at best an amateur in game terms).
You found this thread? http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18483
And since you're asking about pure or mostly pure rogues then all the mid-to-upper echelon of the Shadow Thieves, the Night Mask (pre 4e), the Shadowmasters of Teflamm and other minor organizations fit the bill being between levels 10-18.
Other notable pure rogue/thieves are:
- Rekx Tihler (2e, T 15) of the Shadow Thieves of Riatavin
- Renal "the Bloodscalp" (2e, T 16) of the Shadow Thieves of Athkatla
- Daud (2e, T 15) of the Rundeen-sponsored adventuring band "The Clenched Fist"
- Sorenth Gorender (3e, vampire R 8 / Guild Thief 5) of the Night Masks of Westgate (killed of in 4e)
- Spymaster Bellaq yn Effen "the Silver Spider" (2e, T 18) of the Spies' Guild of Calimshan
Well a bit of both really, but mainly pure (or close to pure) mid to upper level thief or rogues - just because they seem to be rather rare in the lore.
I had not seen that thread you linked before, thanks alot!
And thanks for your list of notable thieves. Ill look into the stories and history of them all. 
quote:
Originally posted by Tamsar
Bloodstone Lands has a few high level Rogues admittedly a 2nd ed source: Cat-One Eye 21st Level Rogue, a "snuffer" a contract killer. A half elf so could conceivably still be alive. Celdaon Kierney 24th Level Thief Acrobat/8th level Mage, Tarkos Ree 24th level rogue and guildmaster of Tightpurse in Heliogabalus. Celadon stole the Wand of Orcus, doesn't get much more epic than that! I always liked Garth The Gimble - The Snake of Selgaunt, just because of all that alliteration.
Good suggestions! Thanks.
I knew there had to be some that I had never heard of. That's why I made this thread.  |
Ezekil
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance" |
Edited by - Ezekil on 09 Nov 2013 16:49:57 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Ezekil
Acolyte
Norway
22 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 21:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
'Ow 'bout one Valas Hune? I seem t' recall 'im being a right sneaky chap.
Worry not dwarf, he was already mentioned! |
Ezekil
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance" |
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Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 00:08:04
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| One of the most famous rogue in the Realms is Mirt The Moneylender |
Yan
Playtester |
Edited by - Plaguescarred on 10 Nov 2013 00:09:43 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 02:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekil
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
'Ow 'bout one Valas Hune? I seem t' recall 'im being a right sneaky chap.
Worry not dwarf, he was already mentioned!
Ah, 'e is; 'e is. I didn't see 'im the first time. Bah! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 03:54:41
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| The harpers books had a lot of rogues. My favorite realms rogue is Elaith |
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Ezekil
Acolyte
Norway
22 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 11:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Plaguescarred
One of the most famous rogue in the Realms is Mirt The Moneylender
I'm ashamed to say I have missed him in my list. Thanks!
A side note though: He has more fighter levels than rogue levels. Again, the designers seems to favour other classes. *shrugs*
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The harpers books had a lot of rogues. My favorite realms rogue is Elaith
Oh! Elaith! I agree. But alas, he's not a Rogue in class, if only at heart and way of being. Strangely enough he's wizard/fighter i seem to recall - with no rogue levels. |
Ezekil
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance" |
Edited by - Ezekil on 10 Nov 2013 11:26:25 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 12:22:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekil
Oh! Elaith! I agree. But alas, he's not a Rogue in class, if only at heart and way of being. Strangely enough he's wizard/fighter i seem to recall - with no rogue levels.
[/quote]
Always thought that was a huge oversight - hes much more of a fighter/mage/thief. The problem with that was his back story doesn't allow for the thief part of multiclassing until MUCH later - and the old rules did not really allow for that kind of dual classing for elves. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 13:44:27
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Elaith had game stats long before his character was ever explored in a novel.
And other than moving silently (hardly a class-exclusive skill) and easily bypassing magical wards, we never see him do anything particularly rogue-like. The roguish abilities he does demonstrated could be explained with cross-class skills, or with the fact that he has a small arsenal of magical doohickeys.
Heck, in Elfsong, he relies on someone else for picking someone's pocket. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Nov 2013 13:45:23 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 22:06:04
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| He's definitely an expert at hiding in shadows and backstabbing :P |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 22:07:13
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| Plus he knows thieves cant |
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The Madmage
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 22:38:42
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| I'd add Zilvreen of the Cult of the Dragon. In 2nd edition he was a level 19 thief. I recall the 3rd edition version of him had some levels as a wearer in Purple prestige class. |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2013 : 00:03:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekil
Oh! Elaith! I agree. But alas, he's not a Rogue in class, if only at heart and way of being. Strangely enough he's wizard/fighter i seem to recall - with no rogue levels.
Yup. That's why I mentioned him and Young El before. Some of the most roguish realms characters aren't really rogues at all! |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 10:19:16
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| All this talk made me wondering is (in canon) there some high to epiclevel rogue/monk crosbreed? I mean ninjatype of character. Mayby in Kara-Tur? |
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Ezekil
Acolyte
Norway
22 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 19:42:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Madmage
I'd add Zilvreen of the Cult of the Dragon. In 2nd edition he was a level 19 thief. I recall the 3rd edition version of him had some levels as a wearer in Purple prestige class.
Oh indeed. Zilvreen, master thief (NE hm T19)
Never heard of this guy before. Nice find! |
Ezekil
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance" |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 01:36:03
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| I think Jarlaxle has to be among the best if not the best. He may not be the best "pure" thief but he is by far the best swordsman of any mentioned possibly approaching Entreri in skill level. Not to mention he has, by far, the most powerful and diverse personal selection of magic items and artifacts that make him nearly impossible to kill or imprison. I've no doubt that he could outsteal, outsneak, and outfight anyone listed except for perhaps Zilvreen. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 09:32:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
I think Jarlaxle has to be among the best if not the best. He may not be the best "pure" thief but he is by far the best swordsman of any mentioned possibly approaching Entreri in skill level. Not to mention he has, by far, the most powerful and diverse personal selection of magic items and artifacts that make him nearly impossible to kill or imprison. I've no doubt that he could outsteal, outsneak, and outfight anyone listed except for perhaps Zilvreen.
Eh ... no.
Just because Jarlaxle got a lot of good press by Mr. Salvatore it doesn't mean the others are sitting idly as time pass. Add to this the fact novels require the author to have a lot of freedom in describing the deeds of the characters contained therein and any possible comparison between someone in a novel and someone in a sourcebook goes bonkers.
So, let's just list "the bests" without ranking them, ok?
And to had to the list:
- Haskar Corintis (T 17 in The Vilhon Reach 2e sourcebook and later R 15 / Ass 2 / GuildThief 2 in FRCS for 3e) is the guildmaster of the thieves of Ormpetarr in Sespech;
- Leonara Obarstal (R 12 / GuildThief 3 in FRCS for 3e) is the head of Proskur's city council that's entirely composed of her thieves guild (they got tired of challenging the law and became the law and now run the city); |
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Ezekil
Acolyte
Norway
22 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2013 : 00:35:59
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Thanks demzer, good finds and good points indeed.
Any others got more tips on greatest rogues and thieves?
I seem to recall a thief from 2ed called Flame from Sembia? Anyone know what happened to him? |
Ezekil
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance" |
Edited by - Ezekil on 24 Nov 2013 00:37:47 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2013 : 01:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
You mentioned Fox at Twilight (Ilira) from the Shadowbane novels, but don't forget Fayne! She seduces the rich and powerful for a living, plus she's a great spy. Lilten is a fantastic rogue too, and he's arguably more clever than anyone else I've mentioned.
I happen to agree in a totally unbiased way.
Ilira is a complex character--there's a 3.5 writeup of her on the Bard's Rumors page here on Candlekeep, and in 4e terms she's largely a shadow-wielding assassin in terms of class.
Fayne is a fey pact warlock.
Lilten is part rogue, mostly priest, which makes sense, since he is the high priest of Beshaba (formerly of Erevan Ilesere).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2013 : 02:12:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Plaguescarred
One of the most famous rogue in the Realms is Mirt The Moneylender
I agree with this, Mirt is well known even if you don't know him! |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2013 : 02:14:21
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I personally loved Renal Bloodscalp, leader of the Shadow Thieves.
EDIT: My mistake, I forgot to check this before submitting it. Aran Linvail is the leader of the Shadow Thieves supposedly, thank you Maploq. Renal was a figurehead under him. |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
Edited by - Alruane on 24 Nov 2013 04:30:12 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2013 : 02:47:18
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Rhinnom Dannihyr, Grandmaster of Shadows and Iltarch of Amn.
He is the leader of the Shadow Thieves and (nominally at least) the fourth in the power scale within the Council of Six that rules Amn. He was statted as a dual Wizard 4 / Thief 20 in 2nd Edition, and a multiclass Rogue 15 / Assassin 5 in 3rd Edition. Safe to say, he's predominantly a rogue with some spellcasting ability, and very badass.
The Grandmaster of the Shadow Thieves in the Baldur's Gate 2 game, Aran Linvail, is "kinda" canon, in that there's apparently an assassin with this name in the game novelization according to the FR Wiki, but he's not the leader of the Shadow Thieves. He's also killed in the novel. Renal is canon, but he's also not the Grandmaster, he's the Silhouette of Burglars (but a respectable Thief 16 as mentioned). Rhinnom, on the other hand, is the canonical Grandmaster of Shadows, from 1358 DR up until who knows when, as far as I know.
Edit: that may stretch your definition of "notable thieves and rogues" a bit, but there's also Teldar, a Thief 14 and arguably the "leader" of the Inner Sea pirates, and Rethnor, High Captain of Luskan, ex-pirate and agent of the Kraken Society, a Fighter 16 / Rogue 7. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 24 Nov 2013 03:33:32 |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
233 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2013 : 13:05:53
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Yeah, given Aaran Linvail's representation in game he would only be a Shadowmaster (3rd highest rank) within the Shadow Thieves and (going off my calculations) there are about fifty people who share that rank. Renal Bloodscalp is only a Guildmaster (also known as a "Silhouette") which is a step below Linvail and there are (again, from my calculations) approximately five hundred of them.
Above Aaran Linvail would be the Shade Council (8 members) and then above them the Grandmaster of Shadow (Rhinnom Dannihyr). |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
Edited by - Light on 14 Dec 2013 13:07:12 |
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The most (in)famous or best Thieves and Rogues
