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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 12:39:15
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I am not big fan of forgotten realms but I play some computer games and read some about lore. And I have a question. Drow males are treat so bad in Drow society (by the way I don't know why they don't revolt) and often are sacrificed and used as bulk of army (mainly common warriors suffering great casualties). So it's like females should outnumbered them because they didn't die so often. And if there are much more females why drow males aren't more valuable if there is lack of them.
I also worry why there are much more female Drow outcast (sometimes good) than males? It is that they are surplus and there are no place for them? For example:
-Viconia (from Baldur's Gate)
-Liriel Baenre
-Nathyrra (from NWN)
-Zhai mother (from Demon Stone)
From male outcast only Drizzt is well known.
I think that all this universum is little irrational.
Sorry for my english because I am from Poland. :)
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Edited by - Sluban on 10 Oct 2013 12:49:30
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 13:41:42
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Well the answer to this is that there are many types of drow society.
The ones you are talking about are those cities that venerate Lolth and therefore females are treated as superior.
Other societies do exist such as those settlements that venerate Vhaeraun where males are more predominant. Then there is sshamath which is a magocracy of sorts and so anyone with spellcasting ability is of more worth regardless of gender.
As to why males arent more valuable in lolthite society, this is down to the worship of Lolth, she is the most powerful and leading deity of the drow pantheon. She dictates how drow society is run in those settlements so everything is done according to her tenets/dogma.
Exceptions do exist and those males that prove the most capable are often taken by the most powerful drow priestesses as favoured consorts and can expect to live longer in more luxury and father lots of children until they are too old and then they are discarded or killed.
The reason the males do not revolt is because the females hold all the power, and resources and they have the backing of a powerful deity.
As for outcasts, it depends on your definition of an outcast. Yes more women would be outcast from a lolthite society because any males that step out of line would be killed rather than exiled. But more males would at least attempt to escape society because they are the downtrodden.
However, that being said, there probably arent that many outcasts or escapees from any drow society because there is nowhere for them to go. They live mostly in the underdark which is an incredibly hostile environment with few resources and a lot of competition. Drow are unwelcome on the surface or in any other community so they are forced to band together to survive.
All of this is exactly how lolth wants it, she implements a survival of the fittest (most devious usually) strategy in any settlement she is worshipped so all of the above helps weed out the weak in the drow population.
Of course all of this information is pre spellplague, but since you referenced several pre spellplague characters i figured it was the most appropriate. |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 14:09:42
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But my question was how they can exist when there are much more females and males still are treat worse. This society will go to annihilation. And what with all surplus females? Why males are still less valuable when after harsh treatment there will be much less of them than females?
By the way I know about other types of drow society but they are in minority. And they can revolt because females can't exist without males and they have other dieties to back them. Male drows also have powerful mages. Malavon did successful revolt. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 14:43:34
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When you are indoctrinated from birth it is hard to shed off any shackles that may keep your mind down. Males get told from birth who is in charge and that failure can cost them their lives. They see the power resting with the females. If there are truly more males or females is hard to tell since we are not given any absolute numbers on the drow populace of the realms, granted we have some for settlements but those are not every single drow out there. Donīt forget that there is also competition between females for power and males can be prized "items of power" if they show that they are worthy of it. Lolth grants the clergy their power, she favors females to stay in power and should it come to blows between the clergy and some males, the clergy wipes them out due to the power they are given by the prime drow deity. The underdark is a dangerous place, survival of the fittest and drow settlements are part of that enviorment yet for drow also give them places of "security". Lolth will not let the drow annihilate themselves because they are her followers and a deity only recieves power from those who venerate it, less followers, less power and since Lolth is fighting a war against the surface elves it would be selfdefeating to have the drow go extinct. In the end it comes down to everyone for themselves in the underdark and if a drow settlement rips itīs self apart through a civil war, that means outside enemies have a chance to strike and enslave or annihilate the drow. Internal struggle is part of a drows society yet it is not very often that a whole settlement perishes in internal strife, some houses rising or falling, yes but not outright destruction of everything.
Also donīt forget there is magical means to make male drow willing, enthralling them, may it be for labour, if no slaves are at hand, warfare or breeding. That does not mean only male are warriors or labourers, females do that aswell, but those are of non noble status and they are out there, bowing and groveling before a ilharess like any male counterpart. A male drow or a non noble female can hope to advance in society through either displaying prowess that sets them apart from others or be lucky to get the attention of a noble that takes them as consort and integrates them into a noble household. Noble male drow rank higher than non noble females, so one can break it down to Clergy -> Nobles -> Non nobles (including merchants and other duties) -> Slaves with the addition that females are favored over males in the nobles and non nobles sections. Clergy is female dominion and slaves are equally bad off.
Some drow may be content with their station in society, others are blindly devoted to a house and to get back to the up bringing part, if you have known nothing else in your life, why would you go about and try to change it when you know that the society you are in will rather backstab you at first opportunity than see it through with your vision? Granted some may try that and as you stated there are other drow deities (prior to Lolth going about to beating them and here is hoping we see a return of some with 5e) and conflict erupts, but that is the common occurance in the underdark, competition for power and resources and those devoted to Lolth will fight any uprisings within their domains for their goddess. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 15:11:04
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| But really how males and females in drow society can remain in equal numbers? It's look like males die far more often. Females can fight with other females for power but also males fight with other males. Are females also used as mass troops and die in many numbers? In majority of games only males are used as low rank troops and die in high numbers (and also are more likely to be sacrificed). |
Edited by - Sluban on 10 Oct 2013 15:12:06 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 15:16:33
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I think one of the best things I've ever read on the female drow hold over the males was from one of the novels and I can't remember which one. But it basically stated that males will find favor with Lolth only after death and a lifetime of faithful servitude. I would also surmise that the majority of drow in any Lolth dominated city would have little to no knowledge about rival deities, especially the males. I think this would lead to the mentality for male drow, that it doesn't get any better than what they are offered.
The majority of drow do not live to see old age. Males may be expended as cannon fodder, but females are likely pruned too, as the clergy of Lolth is rife with feuds, house rivalries and even sibling rivalries etc.
In real life, this type of society is not viable. The original inspiration for drow society came from the movie The Godfather if i recall correctly, except in this case it might be called Godmother. ;) |
Edited by - Eilserus on 10 Oct 2013 15:19:02 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 15:20:50
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I doubt that male drow die more often then female ones.
Not every female will become a pristress, thats mostly noble female drow.
So with common drow it doesn't make that much of a difference wether you are male or female.
EDIT: But even if males died far more often, one male drow is enough to impregnate a lot of female drows  |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 10 Oct 2013 15:21:51 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 15:28:51
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| I'm only making the guess of male drow dying more as the old 2E Menzo boxed set states that for every female that dies, 10 to 15 drow males are killed. It's possible that only applies to Menzoberranzan. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 17:09:51
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Competition among females is incredibly high. Lolth wants only the best to serve her. The priestesses are encourage to plot, steal, assassinate, murder, use any means to progress in her service.
This does not necessarily apply to males. They are just encouraged to do as they are told. A guard male can exist for some time (providing he can find enough money to buy food and water and stays out of the way of sadistic females who seek to use him in their schemes). That is of course assuming there are no wars or wandering monsters who try to kill him.
A female priest has to look out for threats from above and below her station, as well as any opportunistic drow that happens to meet or even hear her name.
Drow mortality rates are unusually high, which is why if you ever meet a living drow, chances are they are very good at surviving.
It's been pretty clear in anything dealing with FR drow that the males are in competition with each other just as much as the females are. They may not be as prominent in society, but they're still going to try to claw their way to the top. |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 17:59:09
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| So I think it's simply irrational if for 10 males die 1 female. Even if one male can have childrens with many females his status will be high because females must compete against each other. And percent of females will be higher in every next generation. Not to mention extremaly high kinship in every next generation. It's simply can't work. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 19:11:37
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| Correct. Drow society is not viable in a real life sense. If you need something more realistic, you'd have to develop it or modify to fit your needs. The viability of drow society is generally hand waved away to the will of Lolth and that's how she likes it/directs it etc. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 20:37:39
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Well there can be an option that one might consider.
Drow are reported to be very fertile, the having many children over a 400 or so time line clearly allows for many births.
There is no rule that children have a 50 percent chance of being either gender. In fact some cultures using a version of rhythm system increased the percentage of males born as to females. The science has to do with how fast the sperm swims, males are faster though die quicker.
Thus clearly it is possible by following a timing program, far more males might be conceived then females each generation.
There again this is a place where Earth science does not apply and magic abounds and one could say that there are always enough of each gender to fill their fated roles. *S* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 21:32:26
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| It's impossible. There aren't mentioned anywhere that there are born more male than female drows. It's will be visible that drows have more sons than daughters. For example Drizzt mother have equal numbers of daughters and sons. And it's imposible to be born as many as 10 males to 1 females. Can't you just admit that forgotten realms are irrational? |
Edited by - Sluban on 10 Oct 2013 21:33:24 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 21:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
It's impossible. There aren't mentioned anywhere that there are born more male than female drows. It's will be visible that drows have more sons than daughters. For example Drizzt mother have equal numbers of daughters and sons. And it's imposible to be born as many as 10 males to 1 females. Can't you just admit that forgotten realms are irrational?
Many would say Realms are irrational. I do concede that I know of no canon that says male birthrate greater then female, OTOH I do not know any canon that says birth rate is equal either.
Oh as far as male female death rate, odds are very good it related to a city and even most likely a time period and city. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 21:44:18
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| You must be ignorant to say this. Everyone who think logical can conclude that drow males die far more often than females. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 09:57:30
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You do realize you are talking about a fantasy world here?
Even if you where right, and as I allready said I don't think you are, it wouldn't matter because most things in evey fantasy world wouldn't work out the same in the real world. |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 10:16:59
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| Ok sorry for calling Kentinal ignorant, but for me it isn't my opinion it is obvious, when we sum what we know about drow society. And I know that it's only fantasy world but it should have some rules and should be rational in basis. And it's irrational to still kill male drows and take new out of nowhere. What sadist(and feminist) someone must be to invent something like this? |
Edited by - Sluban on 11 Oct 2013 10:17:56 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 19:03:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
But my question was how they can exist when there are much more females and males still are treat worse. This society will go to annihilation. And what with all surplus females? Why males are still less valuable when after harsh treatment there will be much less of them than females?
By the way I know about other types of drow society but they are in minority. And they can revolt because females can't exist without males and they have other dieties to back them. Male drows also have powerful mages. Malavon did successful revolt.
One thing to note, their society is NOT monogamous. So, one male can father multiple families.... they need to not piss the other females off doing it, but .... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 19:15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
Ok sorry for calling Kentinal ignorant, but for me it isn't my opinion it is obvious, when we sum what we know about drow society. And I know that it's only fantasy world but it should have some rules and should be rational in basis. And it's irrational to still kill male drows and take new out of nowhere. What sadist(and feminist) someone must be to invent something like this?
It's never really been stated why Lolth is like that in regards to males. I would assume it has to do with her hatred of Correllon after her failed bid for power in Arvandor. And does kind of line up with how she planned to dispose of her husband. He did turn her in a tanar'ri and banish her to the Abyss. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 19:57:09
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| Just what canon lore says that more males die than female? Not someone's gut feeling or "they seem to be portrayed that way". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 20:26:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just what canon lore says that more males die than female? Not someone's gut feeling or "they seem to be portrayed that way".
Hi this was offered up scroll.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I'm only making the guess of male drow dying more as the old 2E Menzo boxed set states that for every female that dies, 10 to 15 drow males are killed. It's possible that only applies to Menzoberranzan.
As even Eilserus offers that death rate might only apply to that city. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 23:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
So I think it's simply irrational[...] It's simply can't work.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Correct. Drow society is not viable in a real life sense. [..] The viability of drow society is generally hand waved away to the will of Lolth and that's how she likes it/directs it etc.
Just as a follow up to the above:
quote:
By this point, some of you might be wondering how drow society has survived at all. How can a culture this sadistic, this prone to betrayal and infighting, this bereft of any legal or moral code, possibly last for more than a few generations without obliterating itself?
The truth is, it can't. Drow society is absolutely and utterly nonviable. By all rights, it should have murdered itself into oblivion eons ago.
It is only the will of the goddess Lolth that prevents this circumstance from coming about. The Spider Queen likes her drow just as they are--violent, vicious, murderous, and treacherous. It suits her for their society to continue in this manner, and so continue it does.
Lolth works her will partly through her church. [...]
The Queen of Spiders is not a subtle or patient goddess, however, and if she feels that her priestesses are unable to take effective steps in such a matter, she steps in directly. As much as she encourages infighting and bloodshed, she grows wroth indeed at drow who threaten to collapse their entire precarious social system. [...] (Drow of the Underdark, 3.5E, ChI:p26)
Lolth lets the drow screw themselves over all the time. But if looks like it's getting to the point that it might bring an end to the drow society as a whole, she'll step in. She might give someone a vision to make a change. She might magically gift someone. Or she might just whack someone where they stand.
She's a fickle one, that Lolth. She even contradicts her own thirst for chaos and disorder, now and again.
She's a woman. It's her prerogative to change her mind!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 00:05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just what canon lore says that more males die than female? Not someone's gut feeling or "they seem to be portrayed that way".
Hi this was offered up scroll.
But what is the actual canon quote? I hear people say things like this all the time, and spoken out of context it sounds a lot worse than when you read it in the book. I'm currently searching my copy of menzoberranzan for the word male. I've yet to find anything that sounds like this quote. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 02:47:12
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| I misplaced, with help I am sure, my print copy so do not know if the source quote can be found there. *shrugs*. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 04:49:44
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Here's the quote y'all are looking for. And it's even worse for male drow than what others remembered:
quote:
Female drow usually throw themselves with energy and zeal into the endless, vicious intrigue and politics of the city. The bodies of many mark every twist and turn in the fortunes of the Houses, and the everchanging favor of fickle Lloth--but for every drow female who falls, fifteen to twenty males meet doom. (Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], BkI: p5)
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 12 Oct 2013 04:57:17 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 05:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Here's the quote y'all are looking for. And it's even worse for male drow than what others remembered:
quote:
Female drow usually throw themselves with energy and zeal into the endless, vicious intrigue and politics of the city. The bodies of many mark every twist and turn in the fortunes of the Houses, and the everchanging favor of fickle Lloth--but for every drow female who falls, fifteen to twenty males meet doom. (Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], BkI: p5)
Well the only thing that occurs to me, without more context, is falls does not mean death. Males meeting Doom of course does not mean death either, both can mean failure. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 12:55:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Here's the quote y'all are looking for. And it's even worse for male drow than what others remembered:
quote:
Female drow usually throw themselves with energy and zeal into the endless, vicious intrigue and politics of the city. The bodies of many mark every twist and turn in the fortunes of the Houses, and the everchanging favor of fickle Lloth--but for every drow female who falls, fifteen to twenty males meet doom. (Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], BkI: p5)
Well the only thing that occurs to me, without more context, is falls does not mean death. Males meeting Doom of course does not mean death either, both can mean failure.
Notice that the same sentence talks of bodies marking the fortunes of drow Houses. It doesn't sound like live bodies, to me . . . |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 20:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Here's the quote y'all are looking for. And it's even worse for male drow than what others remembered:
quote:
Female drow usually throw themselves with energy and zeal into the endless, vicious intrigue and politics of the city. The bodies of many mark every twist and turn in the fortunes of the Houses, and the everchanging favor of fickle Lloth--but for every drow female who falls, fifteen to twenty males meet doom. (Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], BkI: p5)
Ok, this makes more sense. So, this isn't saying that "in everyday life 15 to 20 males die for every female that dies". This is saying "whenever there are internal political struggles, fifteen to twenty males die for each female lost". So, lets take this a bit further. Whenever they are in the safety of their home and playing political shenanigans (which is NOT all the time, despite what the books say, because a large portion of their time is surviving), they are apt to round up a lot of males (possibly mercenaries) to use as fodder.
So, presumably, in protecting their cities, patrolling the surroundings, trying to make a name for themselves, etc.... a lot of females probably end up dying, whereas the males on such patrols and such are probably less "zealous" and more "wary". Also, what percentage of time is spent on political intrigue plots that lead to death of the female drow intriguing versus the amount of time fighting threats to their city? I'd think it would be generous to say that this number is maybe 5% (bearing in mind, a lot of political intrigues simply cause shame and embarrassment or loss of money). So, lets assume that out on patrols/defending the city/etc..., females are slightly more likely to die trying to prove themselves... say 60% females to 40% males. Now, lets take a cross section of 1000 females and 1000 males. Assuming that 5% of females are killed in political intrigues (50) and 60% of the remaining 95% are killed in other pursuits (570).... for a total of 620 "violent" deaths of female drow and 380 deaths by other means (starvation, disease, old age, accident, etc...). For the males, with the political intrigues if we assume 16 on average per female, we have 800 and those dying on patrol etc..... would be 950 x 40% = 380. So, assuming very few males die via things like starvation, disease, old age, accident, etc.... BECAUSE of the political environment (lets say tag on 100 male deaths of this sort)... that would imply that somehow there would need to be more male drow born than female (not many mind you, only about 20% different).
Note, if that statement of 15 to 20 were more like 10 to 15 OR if my assumption on the number of deaths caused by political intrigue is even slightly lower (say 3% compared to 5%), then things do actually even out(i.e. at 3% we're talking only 30 females lost and the number of males lost drops from 800 to 480... a huge difference). Ultimately, what it boils down to is that males are more likely to die a violent death in drow society.... which is actually the case in human society as well, no? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 20:17:20
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| Oh, another factor I didn't account for in the above, because its more likely to affect drow females than males... how many female priests of Lolth take the test of Lolth and are found wanting versus the number of males? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Topic |
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Drow society
