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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 17:14:54
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Hi all
As recently found in george's sidebar in the Lost empires (P.134-135 ) an offshoot of undefeated Hlundadim forces, led by an Archmage claiming to be HLUNDADIM reborn, has conquered the Tehyamar Dwarven realm and held since today.
It is even stated that it were their troops, hired by the Zhentarim, which had a big part in securing the citadel of the Raven for them.
So, I wonder if it is all too far away, that much of the High ranking Hlundadim forces fled to these mines or joined with this force, and the rest moving to Skull Gorge?
Looking forward to a nice discussion.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 19:50:35
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It is interesting to think that the greatest hobgoblin empire in the realms survives to this day, but as yet we still do not know much about Hlundadim the empire or person.
Now if you will excuse my ramblings for a moment they do have a point.
Given that there is so little known about a realm of humanoids that coexisted with Netheril for at least 40 years and even destroyed one of its successor states I find it bizarre that nothing is known about their settlements, capital, people, ruler, anything. In fact no single trace of the empire has been found (at least according to the sourcebooks, I don't know about novels).
Now we know that Hlundadim the empire occupied the Stonelands, but in the time of Netheril they were fertile lands that were used as holiday villas by the successor states (and therefore probably the Netherese) for their cultural elite.
So in order for all these things to be true; fertile land occupied by both the empires of Netheril and Hlundadim, the empire of Hlundadim must have been hidden. Now it could have been hidden in the mountains, but certainly the Stormhorns to the south were heavily populated with dragons, and may also have had a kingdom of giants in the area according to lore from Elminster's Ecologies and Ed's thread.
So the empire must have consisted of a number of hidden and linked outposts. I believe the only example detailed to date is the city of Grodd which exists in a demiplane. What if all the outposts of Hlundadim existed in demiplanes that were created by Hlundadim himself. That would account for the massive population of hobgoblins in an area and how they managed to remain unseen.
Now I know that fungus has been stated as being responsible for the population of underground creatures, and that the hobgoblins could therefore have lived underground in the area of the stonelands but the problem with this statement is that it was stated that the empire of Hlundadim was ended because of the spread of Anauroch.
Any underground environment probably wouldn't have been affected by the spread of Anauroch on the surface because massive populations of monsters are still present under Anauroch in the caverns controlled by the Phaerimm. The surface and the Underdark seem to have different ecologies that are not linked.
So the spread of Anauroch begins to interfere with Hlundadim's magic and overtime forces more and more hobgoblins to the surface which is gradually becoming more barren and Stonelands like of today. This all leads to the battle of the bones.
Now here comes the twist. The general of the hobgoblins at the battle of the bones was a great leader, but what if he was manipulated into gathering the army and spreading west so that the elite rulers of Hlundadim can implement their own plan in secrecy and without opposition.
Now according to the history the Zhentarim paid the possibly Hlundite forces to attack Tethyamar in the desertsmouth mountains. What if it wasn't quite how it happened. Perhaps the Hlundite leaders were already planning to attack Tethyamar, and it was a bonus that the Zhentarim paid for the whole thing.
So why attack Tethyamar?
It seems that at one point the richest clans of Tethyamar paid to have the Hlundite fortress of Rulvadar constructed. What if this means they repaired and outfitted an old fortress of the Hlundadim empire. That means that Hlondite outposts must have been present in the area at one point.
So what if at the bottom of the mines of Tethyamar is a secret entrance to one of the demiplane outposts that was never found and known only to the Hlundadim.
Now that the Hlundadim empire is back in control of an empty demiplane city it can begin restocking its forces.
Anyway its just an idea.
As to Hlundadim himself. I personally plumb for Sarrukh lich and contemporary (but not necessarily friendly) of Arthindol the Terraseer, which makes him a ruler of Oreme and prone to long spells in stasis which explains his absence for such a long time.
Just a thought as to the naming of Hlundadim and the empire of Hlundadim, what if it wasn't vanity as to why he named the empire after himself. What if Hlundadim means hobgoblin in Sarrukh, what if he called himself, the empire, the capital, and its people all Hlundadim, so that should anyone be captured it would confuse the hell out of any would be interrogators, who would probably put the repetition of the word down to goblinoid stupidity.
That's my ten cents, I am all for a secret empire of goblinoid living right under the noses of every kingdom/empire in faerun.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 20:17:07
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In another game I ran, I had a dwarven player character retake Tethyamar. In it were thousands of goblins and a hobgoblin elite; but the true masters were Barghest fiends.
My idea today is that goblinoids did indeed overrun Tethyamar, with the help of Zhentilar wizards summoning fiends to aid them. Again primarily Barghests, but also numbers of Abishai. The goal of the Zhentilar had been to use the fiends as shock troops (which worked) that would be completely wiped out and allow the easier to control goblins to be then manipulated and take control of the mines (which didn't work).
The goblinoids that were left proved too difficult to control, and so Tethyamar's TRUE mines were lost to the Zhentilar efforts. The goblinoids left have pretty much been self contained as they had plenty of room in the mines to live and work...and war against each other as well, which to date has prevented them from increasing to greatly in numbers that they would spill forth and conquer surrounding lands.
Who is to say what might happen in the future though. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 11:56:31
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I have to adkit that i also find it highly unusual that so few signs of Hlundadim are visible as today. Even more for it is not millenia ago since it was there.
My first assumption was that they inhabited the former caves and mines of the dwarven Kingdom of Oghrann which was pretty much in the same geographical area.
Also, i could imagine a vast labyrinth of i terconnected natural caves in the stonelands and that there are many many hidden entrances to old and forgotten settlements, outposts, fortresses etc. Maybe even settled as of today.
Just think of Mithril Hall. A mighty empire long lost and then re-found. Or the ruins the companions of drizzt stumbled upon.....
Much room to speculate.
I personally think the Hlundadim empire fell apart after battle of bones - too much of the leading caste lost in battle.
Separate pockets, like the melial in skullgorge and the worghest controlled parts of terzyamar exist in unknown poser and size.
Also imaginable that many more of these pockets exist in secret cave cities or similar.
And for me, they all just were eady to burst forth again and crush i.e. a weakened cormyr or similar until all of a sudden the shades and netheril with them returned.
Remembering how old netherese treated humanoids, they then decided to wait some more and be patient for their time to come.
Har har
But, coming back to topic i am looking for any evidence given canon infomation provides that either the rebirn hlundadim himself or a big pocket empire or offshoot of the empire still exist in tethyamar. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 13:37:17
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I have to adkit that i also find it highly unusual that so few signs of Hlundadim are visible as today. Even more for it is not millenia ago since it was there.
My first assumption was that they inhabited the former caves and mines of the dwarven Kingdom of Oghrann which was pretty much in the same geographical area.
Also, i could imagine a vast labyrinth of i terconnected natural caves in the stonelands and that there are many many hidden entrances to old and forgotten settlements, outposts, fortresses etc. Maybe even settled as of today.
Just think of Mithril Hall. A mighty empire long lost and then re-found. Or the ruins the companions of drizzt stumbled upon.....
Much room to speculate.
I personally think the Hlundadim empire fell apart after battle of bones - too much of the leading caste lost in battle.
Separate pockets, like the melial in skullgorge and the worghest controlled parts of terzyamar exist in unknown poser and size.
Also imaginable that many more of these pockets exist in secret cave cities or similar.
And for me, they all just were eady to burst forth again and crush i.e. a weakened cormyr or similar until all of a sudden the shades and netheril with them returned.
Remembering how old netherese treated humanoids, they then decided to wait some more and be patient for their time to come.
Har har
But, coming back to topic i am looking for any evidence given canon infomation provides that either the rebirn hlundadim himself or a big pocket empire or offshoot of the empire still exist in tethyamar. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 21:37:43
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| Well the idea with the phaerimm supporting or blocking the pocket dimensions also sounds pretty nice. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 01:47:58
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So, looking through Elminster's Ecologies I found something interesting to me that I had forgotten about:
quote:
At the time of the Battle of Bones, about three hundred years ago, hobgoblins were a much more plentiful race, far outnumbering orcs. In that terrible, bloody war, however, it was the hobgoblin ranks that sustained the most terrible casualties. The vast majority died in Skull Gorge.
It is certain that hobgoblin shamans have never again attained the levels of mastery and of power that they brought to that fateful conflict. Only legends recall the times when hobgoblins were able to summon servants from the lower planes, and cast extremely powerful spells.
Hobgoblins are pretty common in both the Goblin Marches and the Stonelands. There are separate tribes of hobgoblins in the region but most often the creatures are found in the company of orcs, goblins, or humans. When they travel or shelter with goblins, hobgoblins consider themselves the masters. Orcs and humans they are more likely to treat as equals albeit equals they do not completely trust and at least somewhat resent.
So what was it that caused them to lose this ability? I can only guess that most of their powerful casters were slain...but this leaves open that they are at least CAPABLE of this sort of magic. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 11 Oct 2013 01:48:50 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 08:42:51
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I believe this is part of the confusion regarding Ularim that George Krashos mentioned in another thread recently.
Several of the books detail orcs and hobgoblins interchangeably at the battle of the bones.
I personally am fine with both races knowing powerful spells to summon fiends.
We know orcs at one time had very powerful spellcasting ability (the orcgate wars) and this ability was probably lost.
As for hobgoblins, since we have no idea of their origins then we have free reign to decide whether this spellcasting power was inherited or learned (and then lost).
One theory i have been toying with is that goblinoids are actually corrupted humans.
The first mention i can find of hobgoblins is them gathering around the gorge of the fallen idol in Tethyr, where they then proceed to raise a massive statue to Nomog Geaya.
So maybe all hobgoblins in the realms stem from a group of humans in Tethyr that lived near the gorge of the fallen idol and were corrupted by Nomog Geaya.
These hobgoblins then spread across the realms.
Now the super spellcasting ability i think would come from Hlundadim himself (being in my game a Sarrukh lich of oreme and therefore a very powerful spellcaster). He tutors the feral humanoid tribes of the stonelands in spellcraft as well as attempting to civilise them.
That way both orcs and hobgoblins can reach great heights in magery because they are the more intelligent of the orc and goblinoid races.
As for the focus on demon summoning, i think that particular leaning is due to their near demonic deities (such as Nomog Geaya) who encourage them to summon demons while they learn the ways of the arcane (and or divine) caster.
Certainly the loss of this ability has something to do with the battle of the bones, at least according to the narrator. The goblinoid forces were slaughtered almost to the man, that includes the powerful spellcasters.
But if however the cultural elite survived elsewhere (in Tethyamar) then their spellcasting traditions may have survived.
Barghests are extraplanar beings so it is conceivable that the arrival of barghests in Tethyamar may have been due to the surviving spellcasters from the Hlundadim empire (if indeed their were any). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 14:46:23
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I imagine Orcish Shamans should be witchdoctors - which should be like 'evil druids' for them - and Hobgoblin Shamans are more like sorcerers (its more of a 'bloodline thing' in their case). Thats how I picture it.
As for where hobs come from... well... don't you know? Thats what happens when you cross an orc with a goblin (although all three races will NEVER admit that). Just like the tieflings (and probably half-elves and half-orcs by this point), there were enough crossbreeds to actually become their own, stable sub-race (over the course of thousands of years). First generation crossbreeds will all look different, but the majority of them will be larger and smarter then their parents (as is the way with breeding and genetics). Hobgoblins have been their own, distinct race for so long almost no-one recalls where they came from (but they get uncomfortable when around crossbred Orc/goblins - something unsettling about their similarities).
At least thats how I spin it in my games. Orcs are a type of elf - they are the Unseelie 'children' (El) of the fey, who went their own way (I steal a lot of the backstory for that from the excellent Saga of Pliocene Exile series). That was back in the day when all fey could still alter their forms. Goblins, on the other hand, are unseelie Urchins - one of the two 'lesser' branches of fey (which include brownies, leprechauns, satyrs, etc). They followed Gru-Maas and his Orcs out of the Feywild after his battle with his half-brother, Cor Ellion.
Thats how I spin everything. Gru Mass ('wild spirit') was the son of Maelkith (king of the Dökkálfar), and Cor'Ellion was the son of Freyr, Prince-in-exile of the Vanir (Liosalfar, or 'light elves'). They were fraternal twins, and both were members of the S'Eladrin - the royalty of the Eladrin people, and their mother was Titania (hence, why they are royalty amongst the 'children of the fey').
El-ves = "loyal children"
El'adrin = "wayward children"
Both are merely close approximations - direct translations from Hamafae are very difficult, since there is an empathic (telepathic) element involved in the Fey language. The mortal children of the immortal fey (after death came into the world) were all El, and they broke into two camps - those that stayed with the Fey, and those they left to seek their own fortunes. Those groups broke-down further still into two major courts - Seelie and Unseelie, and dozens of smaller courts (like the Twilight Court, and the courts associated with the seasons) over the course of tens of thousands of years.
Thats how I spin everything - your mileage may vary.
BTW, the Shou/Oriental word for Urchin is 'ling'... so now you know where 'Halflings' came from. The first looked a lot like fauns (which is why most Hin still have hairy feet - and legs - to this day).
ALL homebrew, of course.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Oct 2013 14:59:19 |
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HLUNDADIM still there?
