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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 17:08:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
To maintain canon, you could still keep the origin story outlined above and just switch the deities involved as appropriate...after doing this exercise I really doubt that the REALMS-L info can be considered canon as it conflicts too much with the other published lore, although I suppose you could have Talos somehow creating Entropy...
Or, in my supposition... the other way around... Entropy creating Talos by absorbing deific energy.
I like the Realms-L write-up, myself, and would start with that as the base point. You can combine the two, though: Talos summoned the blackball, and at some point it merged with the sphere of annihilation Ao had created. |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 23:12:24
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The REALMS-L write-up is great, though the history section differs greatly from canon...but if you combine it wit the lore presented in Dungeon 178, then Talos still created/summoned the umbral blot (blackball) and gave it sentience...probably in jealousy after Mystryl was born...Entropy proved to be too powerful and a great threat so Ao imprisoned the primordial as a sphere of annihilation (in the history I presented on Page 1, I simply switched Entropy's origin to be tied with Shar as that makes more sense to me) ...
With all the canon sources, the REALMS-L included, there is a significant gap between Entropy's birth and the Karanok's...so during this time it is left wide open and can be used in a number of ways...to help provide the back story of "the Swallower of Gods" we were working on it's involvement with the Imaskari and the Orcgate Wars as those are periods when many deities were laid low...being a primordial it may have also been involved in the Dawn Cataclysm as well...
This brings us to the Karanok period, and unfortunately this is where the REALMS-L greatly conflicts with canon...so using Lords of Darkness, Entropy appears in the Karanok Mansion in 1346 DR while burning a wizard and Maelos Karanok is still alive...by contrast, the REALMS-L has Entropy appearing in the Karanok Mansion in 1358 DR killing a number of people including Maelos Karanok
Then in 1370 DR, in the Lords of Darkness, Tiamat begins supplying spells to those who worship Entropy (again for my history I simply switched this to Shar). In contrast, the REALMS-L has Entropy being alive and supplying her faithful with spells directly...
... I would say that you could somehow comprise this, however, this would have to be worked around the Maiden of Pain novel which takes place after the sphere has begun supplying them with powers and Maelos is still alive, though at this point he is only the symbolic figurehead of the family ...
Then during the Spellplague the primordial is released and begins "feeding"... |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 23:57:59
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I believe that Nanna-Sin is what connects Entropy to the Karanok's...
As to being involved in the deaths of Marduk/Bahamut, the aspects of Tiamat & Gruumsh ... it is possible, unfortunately I cannot be much more help than that as this is a period is not one that I've spent much time learning about...
The idea that the imprisoned primordial used the divine energy from the gods it has destroyed to spawn Talos is an interesting one, but if I recall Talos was one of the deities created by the conflict between Shar and Selune... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 10:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
I believe that Nanna-Sin is what connects Entropy to the Karanok's...
As to being involved in the deaths of Marduk/Bahamut, the aspects of Tiamat & Gruumsh ... it is possible, unfortunately I cannot be much more help than that as this is a period is not one that I've spent much time learning about...
The idea that the imprisoned primordial used the divine energy from the gods it has destroyed to spawn Talos is an interesting one, but if I recall Talos was one of the deities created by the conflict between Shar and Selune...
Interesting Quandary, but still achievable based on the storyline we're supposing (i.e. that Talos & Entropy are somehow tied to being the same being... ). What's been proposed is that Entropy is also fallout from the creation of Mystryl by the blast from Selune on Shar. If that's the case, then the aforementioned statement isn't untrue.
I admit, its a weird storyline and not where I predicted things going when I started this thread, but it does tie everything everyone has proposed together into a nice package. No canon is false except for the history proposed in the realms-L entry, but even it is partially true as it links Entropy and Talos.
Also, one thing that this myth line explains to me is why Entropy hates wizards (although one could also say its because wizards created it in previous versions). If Entropy is the cast off bits from Mystryl's creation, one could say it is the anti-thesis of Mystryl's ability to "create from nothing".
Also, there's the whole 5 "daughters of Entropy" thing where Tiamat caused Entropy to split off lesser pieces of itself. I'm not quite sure what to make of that, but the idea that each one maybe possessed the deific energy of a swallowed god... and perhaps Tiamat actually caused Ao's curse on Entropy to weaken (i.e. not that she overpowered Ao's ability, but rather she mucked with what Ao had told the gods not to muck with because it was fragile) and that's why Entropy allowed Tiamat to use it.
I'm not quite sure what to make of this piece from "Faiths & Pantheons" which details why Talos would disappear from the realms:
If Talos raises the eyepatch, chain lightning roars forth
from the empty socket at targets of his choosing. If he removes his right glove, the hand goes with it, revealing a hollow arm from which cones of cold spray repeatedly (two a round, in addition to any spells Talos may cast). If he removes his left glove, three staves issue forth from the hollowness that is his left arm; he can then wield any one of them in a round with his right hand.
There are persistent rumors that if Talos ever removes his eyepatch and both gloves at once, he will be destroyed. Confirmed reports reveal that if he ever directly tastes damage from one of his staves, from his right arm, or from his eye, Talos vanishes for 4d10 days and does not grant spells to his clergy nor manifest in any way in Faerūn for that time. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 11:47:42
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The connection to Talos isn't really a problem and is easy to arrange...
Tiamat's involvement is a bit more interesting given the information in Dungeon 178. It is possible that there was a weakness that Tiamat found in Ao's prison for Entropy and exploited it, but I dislike having yet another example of Supreme Power be incompetent and thus out-smarted by their inferiors...so another option would be the 5 "daughters" are augmented sphere's created by Tiamat who used illusion to make it appear as though they split from Entropy... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 14:32:34
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| How about Entropy had managed to spawn an avatar, and it was the avatar that appeared first? Then Entropy was freed when Ao cast down all the gods in the ToT... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 16:38:49
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quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
The connection to Talos isn't really a problem and is easy to arrange...
Tiamat's involvement is a bit more interesting given the information in Dungeon 178. It is possible that there was a weakness that Tiamat found in Ao's prison for Entropy and exploited it, but I dislike having yet another example of Supreme Power be incompetent and thus out-smarted by their inferiors...so another option would be the 5 "daughters" are augmented sphere's created by Tiamat who used illusion to make it appear as though they split from Entropy...
Actually, I don't have a problem with that. Ao told the gods "follow my orders or this thing gets unleashed". He put a "lock" on Entropy. Tiamat goes and f's with the lock... a few years later Entropy is unleashed. Ao goes "dumbass, I told you to leave it alone". He's not outsmarted by inferiors. He left out a baited trap with a big sign saying "don't touch this unless you want your hands slapped". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 17:25:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How about Entropy had managed to spawn an avatar, and it was the avatar that appeared first? Then Entropy was freed when Ao cast down all the gods in the ToT...
Need more clarity around what you're talking about here?
In essence, the canon lore we have so far is that Entropy appeared in 1346 DR to the Karanoks (per Lords of Darkness pg 136). Also in 1346 DR Tiamat returns to the realms (GHotR). Tiamat however does not begin working through Entropy until 1370, at which time she somehow spins off 5 "portions" of Entropy (which become known as Entropy's daughters) (per LoD again). Its this spinning off of 5 new entities that I find most of interest, as I wonder if Tiamat found some way to separate out the absorbed deific energy of gods who were destroyed by Entropy since it was frozen, and this enabled her to somehow "tap" into the worship of the Karanoks. This may have unintentionally weakened that which held Entropy in place.
We also have that Entropy is a primordial frozen in the form of a giant sphere of annihilation by Ao, and that it is freed during the spellplague (Dungeon #178). We also have some people wanting to link it to Shar and Talos (both of which make sense.. more Talos in my head since he's a god of destruction.. but we also have the lore that Talos came about as a result of Shar and Selune fighting (source faiths & Pantheons)). I personally wouldn't consider the info presented in Realms-L as canon before published material, especially since Scott Bennie is the original old empires author and not Tom Costa. I'll take the Brian R. James variation as canon first (its newer, its published, and personally I like it more), and then try to work in any previous lore to make things still "work".
BTW, one thing that occurs to me is that "Entropy" is a name that the Karanoks gave to the being. The "Godswallower" is also a name given by other beings. If Talos was some kind of 'deific offshoot' created by absorbing deities, it very well may be that "Entropy"'s given name is actually Talos... and when humans began worshipping it in the name of Entropy, Talos was simply fulfilling the order. Then Tiamat comes along and tries some kind of trick to use the same alias. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 18:33:18
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Okay, scrap that, I'd only been skimming everything...
Entropy was the sphere of annihilation created and imprisoned by Ao. Talos, having heard about this, makes his own, Entropy Jr, out of the blackball. Entropy Jr at some point merges with the original Entropy. Now both origins are correct.
In 1346, Entropy manages to spawn a free avatar, and the Karanoks find the avatar and begin worshipping it. Then, in 1370, seeing a way to get more power and chaos out of the deal (and maybe keep Shar from getting involved), Tiamat gives Entropy another boost, with the spells and lesser versions.
Then comes the Spellplague, and the bonds imprisoning the main part of Entropy are weakened. Using its new power and semi-divine status, it breaks free.
Hopefully that reconciles everything... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 18:46:18
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An avatar of Entropy would be... NOTHING. 
There should be a connection between Shar and Entropy... perhaps it is her 'father'. Then again, I always pegged Erebus as her father. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Entropy - which god(s) did it swallow?
