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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 16:34:17
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Regarding the black diamond and the shard of pure evil... we seem to keep running into these things where its some dark/black "shard"/"gem"/"star" ... it might be fun to kind of list out a bunch of these
For instance, we have that Zaltec kills his mother Maztica with a "maca with a killing edge of darkness". Now, Maca's having obsidian edging them, so that's easy to explain away and just say its just a reference to Obsidian.
However, what if its not. What if there was some kind of black "stone"/"gem" that's duplicating/breeding as part of some primordial entity. What if that maca was edged with the same essence/shards of what also was carved up as "the black diamond"?
Take it further in some other directions. Talos has this weird eye filled with stars that he covers with an eyepatch. What if his eye was jabbed out with a shard of this pure evil blackness that's related to entropy, and his eyepatch is what was created to help him keep it under control.
We also have this special form of obsidian being crafted in Maztica known as "plumastone". It might be worth having it be that this is a special black stone being mined from the body of a primordial. In fact, this plumastone could very much be similar to the felliron mined from the body of Telos by the warlock knights of Vaasa, but a mineral, not a metal. The fact that most of this "plumastone" will be used to make weapons of death and destruction should make one wonder about the fact that its being associated with "peaceful" pluma magics. It should be noted that this "plumastone" also only became available after the recent appearance of Zaltec about 2 decades prior to the spellplague but after the ToT.
We also have the "black star" that Dove smashed.
It might be interesting if at the heart of Selune as well if there were some other similar material, but not dark... and this is why the inhabitants of Selune don't want miners to ever get in there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 19:26:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do enjoy your wacky home brew Markustay. Always so complicated and thorough.
It HAS TO be complicated, in order to get all the 'facts' to work (and although Eric's writings aren't canon these days, most of us here consider them 'sacrosanct').
This way, Jergal could have created the Crown, but left it 'unfinished'. Jergal's no dummy - if he knew what the Black Diamond was, he would NOT have wanted to wear the crown on his own head. He may have created a 'false crown' (Crown of Thorns?) to wear himself, that somehow linked him to the owner of the real crown, and all he did when he handed Myrkul 'his' crown was do a cheap magician's switcharoo (sleight-of-hand). Pretty simple for a dude with god-powers and six arms.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 19:29:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
By far the best description of the events that ruined Yulash that I've been able to find is from the Forgotten Realms Atlas (1990). Page 122 for those who still have it laying around. It also has a good picture of Yulash. No mention of the Crown or the Nine here, as it is mostly a description of Alias freeing Moander...
I have a crazy what if for you guys... some supposition that I know you all love.
What if what was left of Shadowtop Borough (the enclave that crashed with the Crown of Horns inside) eventually became the plateau that Yulash stood upon?
It's not a bad idea, but I'd question how the Crown managed to stay in one place for so long.
I'd say it was more likely it had traveled a while before coming to rest in Yűlash.
First it would have been buried in a mountain... then once it was recovered... say somewhere around 1200 years ago it might have become a holy relic of Moander because it would be the symbol of his greatest triumph, the corruption and murder of a whole enclave... remember Yulash was a site of his biggest / last temple that eventually got High Magic'd by the elves. Perhaps it was buried once again in the events that bound Moander. Then, a flight of dragons comes through, unintentionally stirs things up (by things I mean the earth under Yulash), and bingo-bango-boingo one very naughty Crown is released upon the world, free to do its dirtiest to any silver haired vixen who comes trolluping along with an octet of heroes.
One could even imagine the manipulation of Moander are what set the dragon flight in motion, as that was when he was manipulating the creation of Alias as well (so we know that while bound he still had the ability to manipulate events in the wider world, he just could not rampage away like all piles of refuse are want to do).
You responded before I could, but basically the same idea.
Moander would have known where the crown was, given his connections to Ghaunadaur/Tharizdun, and had his temple built on top of the site, and then had his followers search for it below the temple (it could have taken centuries, and we'd have a veritable maze of tunnels going on below Yulash... not to shabby for a D&D setting, eh?)
In fact, the temple probably predated the founding of Yulash... it may have even been the impetus for its founding. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 19:37:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Regarding the black diamond and the shard of pure evil... we seem to keep running into these things where its some dark/black "shard"/"gem"/"star" ... it might be fun to kind of list out a bunch of these <snip>
I'm thinking much the same thing, but all of those 'lesser Shards' are created from the original - its like a 'Xaos Virus'.
And each dark/black/umbral/nether/icky/etc., stone/gem/shard/crystal/lump/etc., is a piece of some celestial beings - possibly even gods - whose hearts were used to create the lesser shards. less powerful 'umbral Shards' are created using celestials (angels, creatures of the 'exarch' tier). Greater 'Nether Shards' are created from the hearts of Gods themselves. the Black Diamond may be the greatest, most powerful of the 'lesser shards', created from the heart of an Elder god (Estelar of Primordial).
Come to think of it, I can use my own lore to fix the lore! What if Tharizdun does hold the original Shard of Evil - its HIS heart now! And his own, original, now-corrupted heart was the beautiful diamond that was corrupted and turned into the black one?
What if Tharizdun IS He Who Was, and the story of Tharizdun killing He Who Was is symbolic? Like how Darth Vader 'killed' Luke's father. I could put a whole new spin on the 'Race of Destiny' thing (the race HE CREATED would be the only one that can save him... save the universe... in its final hour).
I guess that makes the Gith the hand that got cut-off.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Dec 2017 19:38:48 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 19:50:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, the temple probably predated the founding of Yulash... it may have even been the impetus for its founding.
This IS canon, the part about the temple predating Yulash at least, as the elves destroyed the whole thing (the above ground part at least).
On yet another side note, why is it the elves ALWAYS do this? How many times can you lock away an enemy and have them come get you a thousand years later before you figure out its a bad idea? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 19:54:51
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And now another possible connection after I just reread what I wrote (seriously, sometimes I write so fast I go back and surprise myself LOL)
The Sojournor - what if he became aware of these 'Dark Shards' and managed to replicate the process, with himself as the center of 'the virus'? He sure as hell was powerful enough to do god-level tinkering. Thus, the Weave Anchors were really just his own, homebrewed version of the Dark Shards. He made them out of Celestials/fiends (outsiders), and then got the 'anchor' out of them (their hearts?). Of course, not nearly as powerful as the Shard of Pure Evil or its lesser artifacts, but he could have gotten the idea from them, given thats its a similar process to what I imagine is going on with them.
Also, it seems the Dark Shards are also capable - at least sometimes - of creating a magnificent fortress out of Ice (Zengyi, The Crystal Shard. I guess that means Kryptonians really were evil all along (and anyone who gets that reference is as big a nerd as I). For whatever reason, ice seems to have some sort of primal connection to 'unlife' (scientifically speaking, inert = 'No Life', and energy {motion catalyst} = 'Life'). Maybe the old saying, "When Hell freezes over' is a reference to the end of the universe, when even the eternal infernal fires of hell are extinguished, and all life (in this universe) is destroyed (both a reference to the purpose of the Shard of Pure Evil itself, and also a nod to the Narnia stories). It puts a slightly different spin on whats going on with the Raven Queen (she became partially corrupted when she absorbed Nerull's power).
It also changes our concept of devils, somewhat. They are actually fighting the good fight. Asmodeus just decided 'The Gods' were too big a pansies to get the job done the right way - you have to become an unrelenting tyrant when it comes to 'the enemy'. It gives him a bit of a 'Doctor Doom' vibe ("the world WILL be a better place once I am in charge"). Sometimes 'evil' with a purpose isn't truly evil at all - its just a complete lack of empathy in order to be as efficient (ruthless) as possible. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 20:00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, the temple probably predated the founding of Yulash... it may have even been the impetus for its founding.
This IS canon, the part about the temple predating Yulash at least, as the elves destroyed the whole thing (the above ground part at least).
On yet another side note, why is it the elves ALWAYS do this? How many times can you lock away an enemy and have them come get you a thousand years later before you figure out its a bad idea?
Elves simply aren't powerful enough, or perhaps Corellon forbids them from 'destroying utterly' anything, which may go all the way back to the Dawn War. Perhaps what I said above applies - Corellon and other 'Elder Gods' are simply too forgiving to get the proper job done. You need folks with ZERO moral compass to be effective in the 'ultimate confrontation'.
Yet... they have no problem exterminating humans en mass. Jealousy, much? Maybe Corellon is still peeved HIS people are not the Race of Destiny. In his own haughty way, he is nerfing the efforts of humanity from solving the fundamental problem (instability) of the universe, and thus jeopardizing EVERYTHING because of his ego. Sounds like an Elven god to me.
Ya know... pictures of fiends in the Bible and other sources do always draw them with pointed ears... 
"Things aren't always what they seem, and gods lie most of all" - Ed Greenwood |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Dec 2017 20:03:16 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 20:12:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, the temple probably predated the founding of Yulash... it may have even been the impetus for its founding.
This IS canon, the part about the temple predating Yulash at least, as the elves destroyed the whole thing (the above ground part at least).
On yet another side note, why is it the elves ALWAYS do this? How many times can you lock away an enemy and have them come get you a thousand years later before you figure out its a bad idea?
Rephrasing what you just asked may help that question: How many times can you put people in prison, only to realize it just turns them into harder criminals, most of which come out and repeat their crimes..... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 21:27:58
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A Netherese origin seems strange given that the lack of Netherese magic in general has been explained by the quasi-magical nature of the objects created by the enclaves. The objects are linked to the enclaves' various mythals.
It would seem strange for the Crown of Horns to be the exception to the rule, and if the Netherese Arcanists were interested in making non-mythal linked artifacts there would be many more such items. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 00:18:07
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They did create both types. After all, they traveled about, even to other worlds.
That part about mythal-powered magical items was just added for game-purposes, so that there wouldn't be a need for thousands of working magical items to be floating around. Same goes for the drow items (which in 2e, were also 'quasi-magical', but use Faersrezz as a power-source instead). Otherwise, adventurers would just make a fortune looting the drow bodies.
EDIT:
And now you have me thinking about SJ 'Mythal-Helms'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2018 00:19:33 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 01:58:58
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quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
A Netherese origin seems strange given that the lack of Netherese magic in general has been explained by the quasi-magical nature of the objects created by the enclaves. The objects are linked to the enclaves' various mythals.
It would seem strange for the Crown of Horns to be the exception to the rule, and if the Netherese Arcanists were interested in making non-mythal linked artifacts there would be many more such items.
Trebbe was making an artifact using the Nether Scrolls, not a plain old magic item.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Myrkul's early history & lost lore
