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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 22:48:24
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As for Myrkul, why couldn't he have forged the original crown - which got broken somehow - and then it was reforged by the Netherese? The original may have only been a normal magical item, and perhaps even Myrkul's 'rightful crown'. Although if it was only normal-level magic, then I don't see why the Netherese would have been so bent of fixing it (making me think it was already an artifact, albeit a broken one, thus worth repairing).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Almost completely off topic, but people talking about Kipyutto and the stonelands twinged my memory about a passage in my notes on the stonelands.
The Yielding Tide: An ancient book called the Yielding Tide speaks of a forgotten city-state that may once have existed in the High Moors. Supposedly the powerful wizards of this city captured a minor goddess in order to steal her power. While the city and its wizards are long gone, those who know the legend (and they are few in number) believe the unnamed goddess is still buried under the city’s ruins. She might grant her rescuers their heart’s desire; or she might slay them in retributive anger.
I cant remember where i got it from, probably the stonelands booklet from elminsters ecologies, but could it be possible that Bane, etc didnt slay all that they stole power from, and instead imprisoned this goddess in the high moors in the stonelands
That product has about a half-dozen hints that the 'final confrontation' between kipputytto and Talona happened in that vicinity, and that two citystates each worshiped a different goddess. my assumption has always been that those were two 'survivor states' of Fallen Netheril. Other people have theorized that the Finnish pantheon (or at least parts of it) came with the folk of Seventon (the proto-Netherse), and that the Talfitric Pantheon may have contained Talona (they seem to have had several 'shadowy' connections).
Now, the Talfiric people were active in the region south of the Netherese - the same area that gave rise to the Thaeravel - the people of the alabaster Towers. We know that the Netherese not only destroyed their archmages, but also took-over their lands (just check some maps to see what i mean - Thaeravel's capital was Rasilith, which falls well within the southern Anauroch. Whatthat means is that they most likely subjugated the rest of Thaeravel's population and absorbed them into their growing empire.
So we have two citystates post-fall existing just south of Netheril-proper, in an area where bot Netherese and Talfiric deities were worshiped. This is why those two cities were so important - one of them probably held the last bastion of Kipputytto worshipers.
There is also legends of invisible city of mentalists (psions) somwhere in the same region. Not sure if thats connected.
Just to the northeast of all of that we have the Moonsea, where 'The people of the Black Sails' were building their own empire. Not much seems to be known about them, but it doesn't seem connected to the Kingdom of Barze (although we can't be sure - both existed in the same region). Now, the thought is that Bane had a mortal kingdom of his own around the Moonsea, and his nation may have been the "People of the Black Sails" (we certainly know he wasn't Alokkaire, although Alokkaire may have had some interaction with Bane and/or the Dark three).
So, the biggest gap we really have is the geographic distance between Myrkul's known stomping ground - Murghôm - and Bane's assumed stomping ground - the Moonsea. We also know the least about Bhaal. If I had to place him anywhere, I would say Myrkul met him en route to the Moonsea (where he met Bane), and somewhere around Impiltur sounds about right. Given the fiendish nature of that entire region (Bloodstone lands, etc), that could help us fill in the gapos about Bhaal's past.
Myrkul apparently left Murghôm in a huff, and went looking for 'like-minded individuals' with enough power to help him complete his plans.
Thats how I see everything playing out. I only stuck Kipputytto in there because I wanted to see them as the evil version of the 'classic D&D adventuring party'. We have some little lore about Kipputytto after Cyric's ascension (see Complete Book of Necromancers), so obviously she was not dead... which shoe-horns perfectly with our theories about her being trapped somewhere around the Stonelands for centuries. She was obviously dead after the ToT, and Loviatar was REAL pissed about it (once again, see the story in the CBoN). My assumption there is that she was 'released' along with all the other deities during the avatar crisis, and Talona finally caught up to her and killed her for good.
That doesn't mean she had anything to do with the Dark Three, but I think it all fits together nicely. She had knowledge they needed, and they paid her lip-service until they didn't need her anymore (at which point they took her share of 'the loot' - whatever divine essences/artifacts they already managed to acquire - and sealed her in a dungeon they probably just finished plundering).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Sep 2013 22:49:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 00:44:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
His miniature looks just like that pic, and there are others.
I would say that that is pretty-much exactly what he looks like. However, you are right in that it doesn't make him an orc (He almost looks a little like a Dgen, so now I might be leaning toward Genasi).
On the other hand, just about every pic of orcs have them looking different, so who the hell knows? He may be a cousin of the Martian Manhunter.
Ok, I had wondered where the idea that he was previously an orc came from, and I was just going with it to see where things took us. From this artwork, yeah, I could see it being say a half-fiend gray orc... I could also see it being a genie. It also reminds me of a fiendish cloud giant, but then he would have been exceptionally tall and it would have been noted. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 00:54:55
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| Markustay.... that's so simple brilliant.... yeah, the Crown of Horns was HIS crown... the crown of the Crown Prince of Murghom. Maybe he lost it in the coup (or whatever happened) that made him leave the country of Murghom. Maybe he'd had it enchanted with magics to prevent anyone else from wearing it. Maybe that's why it exploded when Trebbe was studying it? He triggered the contingent magic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 01:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
We do not have any lore on Bane prior to his appearance with the Dark Three. I go by what lore there is on him and his quest for divinity and that starts with the earliest mentioning of the Dark Three.
Do i have proof that he wasn´t around hundreds of years earlier, no, but neither does the claim that he came through the Orcgate. You see the issue is we lack any evidence of his whereabouts before he went to do what he did and became a god. We know from Ed Greenwood that he is no native of Toril, that´s it, any further knowledge before he goes questing for power with Bhaal and Myrkul is unknown to us. If Bane had gained the dagger during the Orcgate Wars, wouldn´t we have a mention of how a being slew a deity which later became the god Bane?
It is my feeling that too much emphasis is put on the picture of him arising from the shell of Iyachtu Xvim in Faiths and Pantheons,which does not really look like an orc to me because he sports horns and is missing the tusks, even a Sharakim as brought up would have tusks, yet we know that Bane can take any visual form he likes because he is a god, there is no evidence on what he really is, even though one could think of a fiendish heritage or possibly one of the proto-fiends created by the Baernoloths. There is again no proof of it as the lore of his background is missing and all is speculation.
I´d love to see a complete history of Bane and his roots, homebrew can be achieved but he deserves better. For me he is the most interesting god in the Forgotten Realms and his ambition goes beyond Toril so his eyes are set on the Multiverse aswell and with such there are myriads of schemes and powergrabs and plots to be had. Bane is not only about Fear, he is about absolute control and domination, how such is achieved depends on the circumstances but in the end his victory is the goal and the way to such can be as manyfold as the multiverse.
Sorry for derailing your scroll on Myrkul with Bane.
The reason I'm trying to fill this in is we have all these stories of people who do these amazing things in the realms, but its only X that they do... and in order to work up to doing X you know they had to do some other things in order to gain the experience to work their way up. I could easily see certain of the Untheric gods being killed and people not knowing HOW exactly it had occurred... especially if everyone that was with said god at the time dies along with them (even moreso if it were done as an assassination). I'm not really stuck on this idea... but I do kind of wonder when and why Jergal gave Bane the dagger. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 03:25:17
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I always figured Myrkul had been there when Bane founded the initial core of The Black Sails...and I also thought that those individuals (Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul) had been based out of Ironfang Keep...which was the reason Bane's church was centered on Mulmaster.
However, the article on Ironfang Keep changed that in core...though in my home game Ironfang may in fact still be held by those faithful to the "Dead Three" which are very much alive in my own Realms.
I always thought of Myrkul as the Brains, Bane as the Brawn, and Bhaal almost as the hired henchman turned party member...and thus why Bhaal got hind teet in the picks...and ended up serving the other two. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 10:02:02
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I wasn´t aware that they had a miniature of Bane... honestly i feel underwhelmed by it´s look and apperances can change over time, we learned the hard way with the Erinyes and 4e.
Well, we know that Jergal was tiring of his divinity. We know that he gave the Three part of his power after a game of knucklebones, no epic fight till the death, a simple game. This means Jergal wanted them to succeed and giving a divine slaying weapon to them was part of the plan. As to when? That is a good question and we know that Borem fell victim to it so at that date they must have already obtained it from Jergal in some way and we can narrow the time down a bit before the date of Borem defeat. Sadly yet again we lack any information on how exactly the dagger was gained, when and where.
Markus does raise a valid question though, how did the three met? Myrkul came from the east, Bane came from a place outside Toril yet he must have lingered somewhere close to the Moonsea if not directly at it and Bhaal must have been near them aswell. Of course all three could have met at some place else and decided to try their luck in the Moonsea area but locating their whereabouts is one step closer to understanding their progress and revealing potential aspects needed to discover the "truth". |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 10:21:47
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All right, lots of things to comment on:
Jathiman's Dagger: F&P says Jergal "allowed it to fall in the hands of Bane long before he became a deity", this doesn't help much beyond letting us know that Bane was armed for Lost God hunting well before -359 DR.
Bane's Cloak: i admit i have nothing canon to base this hypotesis on but, being the Dark Three a weird and terrifying bunch, what if Bane's Cloak was his pet vampiric cloaker? I picture Bane as a Blackguard of Jergal* and since blackguards can acquire weird demonic/undead servitors that share a link with them similar to the wizard-familiar one, i think it would be fitting for Bane to have a pet cloak that sucks life from your victims and gives it to you. This would even explain Bane's longevity if we ever need to.
*After all Jergal let the Jathiman's Dagger fall in Bane's hands, that's not something you do for strangers.
And now, back to Myrkul:
Markustay beat me to suggesting the Crown was his, so i'll just follow the line of thought: we know a bunch of imaskari artificers resorted to temporal stasis (Hilather), lichdom isn't out of the question and a mix of the two is just the weird thing we need.
To elaborate: Myrkul was an imaskari artificer interested in necromancy and with holdings and slaves around present day Murghom and Semphar. He created the mighty Crown of Horns and styled himself "Crown Prince of Murghom" (that for all we know could have been an administrative subsection of Imaskar at the time) and the after effects of the Crown usage turned him into a lichlike creature. Then the slave revolt, Mulhorandi and Untheric manifestations scour the land searching for every last artificer, Myrkul battles the gods, loses the Crown and his contingencies force him in stasis in the crypts of Bhaluin.
Netherese arcanists sack imaskari holdings and Trebbe puts his hands on the Crown and starts experimenting with it.
Now things get tricky: if Myrkul awakens too soon he'll surely go search for his Crown right in the middle of the Crown canon history and we don't want that but Myrkul needs to be awake and fully functional by -359 DR and a little sooner to form the Dark Three.
So let's say Myrkul awakens while the stasis (that had lesser effect on his lichlike body) is fading away thanks to signals/warnings by the Crown around the time it was in Shadelorn possession: he awakens, scrys for the Crown, sees its inside a Netheres Enclave full of archmages of all ilks but that the Crown, almost intact but with a few modifications, it's relatively safe from harm.
Myrkul decides to turn completely lich, picks up some buried and "long lost" imaskari artifacts he knows are hidden around and then sets out to explore this new world and reclaim his Crown.
His travels take him north and west, he meets the other two and they start kicking butts and taking names.
Why didn't he charge for the Crown? He wasn't stupid and the Netherese were in full-on doomsday paranoia with the phaerimm turning Lower Netheril to Anauroch.
Why didn't he take the Crown while he was nearby (say, around -357 DR, after Maram, with Bane's and Bhaal's help)? Because the Netherese were still in deep troubles, because he knew the Crown was still "his" (he could scry through it, and most of the contingencies were still there), because he was busy becoming a god and the Crown was a decent backup plan if the two brutes with him failed miserably or turned against him. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 11:15:45
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DISCLAIMER: apologies, but i'm going a bit off topic with speculations on the Dark Three.
There are a lot of fishy things with the Dark Three, the Lost Gods, Jergal's role and the whole ascension thing.
I'm going to force some pieces of the puzzle together and you tell me if it sounds reasonable, here's the pieces:
1) Jergal was angered by the other gods taking their faithfull from his domain and released the primordial Kezef to go on a petitioner rampage.
2) Jergal was tired of his role and powers and wanted to let go of a good portion of it (suggested probably after the Kezef-debacle).
3) The Dark Three had help from Jergal in indirect ways on their way to divine ascension.
4) The other Lost Gods are classified as primordials too.
5) For 5 out of 6 Lost Gods we know the Dark Three confronted, the timing of their appearance is awfully fishy: Borem gets released by a tenday deluge and shortly thereafter the Dark Three show up with the solution; Maram escapes the Netherese binding and the Dark Three show up to beat him into submission; for Tyranthraxus we have Dungeon 170 that says that the Dark Three may have had a hand in releasing it against Barze and the other nations, and then beat him too; Haask was happily overseeing his minotaur empire until the greatest goblinoid horde ever showed at his doorstep and forced him to summon Hargut and, surprise, the Dark Three were already there to bind both.
Here's my idea:
Jergal releases Kezef, a minor primordial that any deity could easily quash, but there is Ao around, that stopped the war splitting the worlds and doesn't want any divine or primordial blood (spilled by the opposing faction) to soak Toril again, so the deities are forced to bind Kezef instead of destroying it.
Jergal is blamed for the whole debacle, for the first time in ages he enjoyed his job and all this other deities chastise him. He starts to reconsider his position and the Dark Three arise, his interest piqued he starts to follow their exploits and then thinks of a way to test them.
He starts awakening the other primordial of the bunch he knows of (maybe he binded them personally or something and Kezef + Borem + Maram + Tyranthraxus + Haask + Hargut + Canmod = Seven Lost Gods?) and sends the Dark Three to clean the mess as a test of their skills. When they're done he opens his domain gates to them and we all know the results.
There are a lot of missing pieces here and then there is the interesting fact that the Dark Three ended up with portfolio elements outside those of Jergal, maybe meaning the ascension happened after Netheril's Fall and with the other deities weakened by the loss of followers (Bane took strife from Kozah and hatred from Shar, Bhaal took murder from Shar, Myrkul took decay, corruption and parasites from Moander and autumn from ? that may have been Kyputitto since there's no hint of a poison and disease deity in N:EoM).
Another missing piece is the "Meeting of the Three" ... see what i did here? Rings any bell? What if i had Border Kingdoms? 
Yes, i'm suggesting the "Meeting of the Three" was the first meeting of three champions of the deities now found in the ruins: Jergal sponsored Myrkul (a necromancer from a god hating society sponsored by a deity that hated other deities and was tired of his own power and status), Garagos sponsored Bane (an unholy otherwordly destroyer, yeah i know i said Jergal was his patron before but this fits better) and Sharess (that at the time was probably fully in her dark pleasures period and falling under the sway of Shar [hint hint wink wink about all the portfolio losses Shar suffered after the Fall of Netheril*]) sponsored Bhaal (a cunning and mysterious assassin whose only other trait known is that he had more flings, liasons and one night stands than humanly concievable and sired scores of heirs of all races, i mean no other deity has so many recorded offspring, no one comes even close).
This would even thematically fit with the Dead Three means of survival/resurrection after their demise:
- Bane: one true heir that should take all the power, like any good tyranny.
- Myrkul: an unholy arcane artifact with corrupting and possessing powers and an intricate plan.
- Bhaal: spread the love!
* Shar (Netheril):
Dark, Night, Loss, Forgetfulness, Unrevealed Secrets, Hiding Places, Hatred, Murder, Seduction, Betrayal, Treachery, Sleep, Nightmares, Illusions, Lies, Trickery, Thieves, Thievery, Murder, Winter.
Shar (F&A and F&P):
Dark, Night, Loss, Forgetfulness, Unrevealed Secrets, Caverns, Dungeons, Underdark (last three from Ibrandul).
All the others? Hatred (Bane then Xvim), Murder (Bhaal then Cyric), Thieves/Thievery (Mask), Intrigue(half of Trickery) (Mask then Cyric), Lies/Illusions/Deception(other half) (Leira then Cyric), Seduction (unassigned but connected to Sharess), Betrayal (Gargauth) Treachery (about half the other portfolio elements of Gargauth have some connection), Hiding Places (probably turned into Shadows so Mask), Sleep/Nightmares/Winter (unassigned). |
Edited by - Demzer on 24 Sep 2013 11:23:03 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 11:50:55
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We can only speculate if the apperance of the Lost Gods and the domination of them by the Dark Three are tied that closely. The issue i see with Kezef is, that the gods fear it, Mask was really scared of it. Why would a god be so scared if he can easily slay it? This doesn´t mix.
Putting the Dark Three in the Border Kingdoms is geographicly less believable. Why travel all the way to the Moonsea? Divine guidance by Jergal? We do not know just as we do not know why Myrkul really left his home Murghom.
Making Bane a sponsored champion of Targus, the former name of Garagos by Netheril does not make sense because why wouldn´t Targus simply take the divinity from Bane once he gained a piece of it? Any "champion" of a deity is depending on the powers bestowed to them by their patron and we know that the gods don´t want their champions to rise to divinity themselves and by chance risk to be replaced by them. Jergal may be an exception but again, we do not have any information on what divine beings the Three worshipped, if any at all.
Only because Bane had "one" true heir does not mean it is the sole one. He can have just as many as Bhaal or more, yet we don´t know of it.
Putting Bhaal in the fold of Sharess because of his many "heirs" isn´t a reasonable argument. Rulers of nations can have several illegitimate children, like Azoun IV for example and yet we do not see him venerating Sharess as his primary deity now do we? Gods can mate with any living creature and as often as they like without them being subject to any sphere of influence of a deity who may have such portofolio claims.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 13:06:25
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Oh yes this theory is weak and shaky, but you need to put more effort in disproving it if you really want, half of the things you say aren't really counter-arguments and just saying "we don't know" isn't enough to stop us from speculating.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
We can only speculate if the apperance of the Lost Gods and the domination of them by the Dark Three are tied that closely.
No, we have hard canon facts, if that's what you're after: GHotR (page 46) for Borem, Dungeon 170 (Monument of the Ancients, "Seven Sigils War" section) for Maram (war starting between -500 and -400, lasting more than a hundred years so we get in the -400/-300 range and Maram is bound by the Dark Three in -357), Dungeon 170 (Monument of the Ancients, end of "Maram of the Great Spear" section) for Tyranthraxus and the Dark Three involvment, Ironfang Keep by Brian James, "Last days of Grong-Haap" section for Haask and Hargut.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
The issue i see with Kezef is, that the gods fear it, Mask was really scared of it. Why would a god be so scared if he can easily slay it? This doesn´t mix.
Yes, that's why i said Ao forbid deity/primordial violence, maybe you didn't read what i wrote? Mask, being a deity, is bound to play by the rules (and we know that only Cyric has the plot armor necessary to ignore Ao's rules).
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Putting the Dark Three in the Border Kingdoms is geographicly less believable. Why travel all the way to the Moonsea? Divine guidance by Jergal? We do not know just as we do not know why Myrkul really left his home Murghom.
Less believable? Than what? Less believable than knowing nothing? You know where the Dark Three were before going after Borem in the Dragon Coast inland? Is it less believable than them killing Borem near Westgate and then going all the way north past the Abbey/Turnback Mountains in search of Maram? You do know of the 6 they confronted only Haask and Hargut were near the Moonsea, right? So why pretend their story only unfolded in the Moonsea region?
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Making Bane a sponsored champion of Targus, the former name of Garagos by Netheril does not make sense because why wouldn´t Targus simply take the divinity from Bane once he gained a piece of it? Any "champion" of a deity is depending on the powers bestowed to them by their patron and we know that the gods don´t want their champions to rise to divinity themselves and by chance risk to be replaced by them. Jergal may be an exception but again, we do not have any information on what divine beings the Three worshipped, if any at all.
Did i say Targus sponsored his ascension? Nope, i said Garagos sponsored him in the "Meeting". Did i say Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul were some kind of Chosens? Nope, i said they were champions. Maybe in your campaigns each and every paladin/cleric/blackguard/favored soul is a Chosen? Or on a race to ascend to divinity? No? Then why you immediately connected "champion of a deity" with "sponsoring for divine ascension"?
Note how i explicitly said that only Jergal helped the Dark Three.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Only because Bane had "one" true heir does not mean it is the sole one. He can have just as many as Bhaal or more, yet we don´t know of it.
Putting Bhaal in the fold of Sharess because of his many "heirs" isn´t a reasonable argument. Rulers of nations can have several illegitimate children, like Azoun IV for example and yet we do not see him venerating Sharess as his primary deity now do we? Gods can mate with any living creature and as often as they like without them being subject to any sphere of influence of a deity who may have such portofolio claims.
This is the only real counter-argument in all this mess. And i won't try to say i based this part of the speculation on anything other than weak connections.
As you can see, shooting questions in full auto fire is easy, problem is, more than half the things you "contested" still hold so if you really want to disprove a theory try harder.
C'mon Bane, spill the beans, tell us your whole story.  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 13:49:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
All right, lots of things to comment on:
Jathiman's Dagger: F&P says Jergal "allowed it to fall in the hands of Bane long before he became a deity", this doesn't help much beyond letting us know that Bane was armed for Lost God hunting well before -359 DR.
Bane's Cloak: i admit i have nothing canon to base this hypotesis on but, being the Dark Three a weird and terrifying bunch, what if Bane's Cloak was his pet vampiric cloaker? I picture Bane as a Blackguard of Jergal* and since blackguards can acquire weird demonic/undead servitors that share a link with them similar to the wizard-familiar one, i think it would be fitting for Bane to have a pet cloak that sucks life from your victims and gives it to you. This would even explain Bane's longevity if we ever need to.
*After all Jergal let the Jathiman's Dagger fall in Bane's hands, that's not something you do for strangers.
And now, back to Myrkul:
Markustay beat me to suggesting the Crown was his, so i'll just follow the line of thought: we know a bunch of imaskari artificers resorted to temporal stasis (Hilather), lichdom isn't out of the question and a mix of the two is just the weird thing we need.
To elaborate: Myrkul was an imaskari artificer interested in necromancy and with holdings and slaves around present day Murghom and Semphar. He created the mighty Crown of Horns and styled himself "Crown Prince of Murghom" (that for all we know could have been an administrative subsection of Imaskar at the time) and the after effects of the Crown usage turned him into a lichlike creature. Then the slave revolt, Mulhorandi and Untheric manifestations scour the land searching for every last artificer, Myrkul battles the gods, loses the Crown and his contingencies force him in stasis in the crypts of Bhaluin.
Netherese arcanists sack imaskari holdings and Trebbe puts his hands on the Crown and starts experimenting with it.
Now things get tricky: if Myrkul awakens too soon he'll surely go search for his Crown right in the middle of the Crown canon history and we don't want that but Myrkul needs to be awake and fully functional by -359 DR and a little sooner to form the Dark Three.
So let's say Myrkul awakens while the stasis (that had lesser effect on his lichlike body) is fading away thanks to signals/warnings by the Crown around the time it was in Shadelorn possession: he awakens, scrys for the Crown, sees its inside a Netheres Enclave full of archmages of all ilks but that the Crown, almost intact but with a few modifications, it's relatively safe from harm.
Myrkul decides to turn completely lich, picks up some buried and "long lost" imaskari artifacts he knows are hidden around and then sets out to explore this new world and reclaim his Crown.
His travels take him north and west, he meets the other two and they start kicking butts and taking names.
Why didn't he charge for the Crown? He wasn't stupid and the Netherese were in full-on doomsday paranoia with the phaerimm turning Lower Netheril to Anauroch.
Why didn't he take the Crown while he was nearby (say, around -357 DR, after Maram, with Bane's and Bhaal's help)? Because the Netherese were still in deep troubles, because he knew the Crown was still "his" (he could scry through it, and most of the contingencies were still there), because he was busy becoming a god and the Crown was a decent backup plan if the two brutes with him failed miserably or turned against him.
The theory for Myrkul holds water as far as I can see. So, basically, we have two hypothesis. Either he was Imaskari or he was Mulan. Both seemingly work, and both work well with the idea of Bhaluin being where he may have fled for safety. I really do like the piece where Myrkul gets involved with the Orcgate Wars however (Thayd was the leader, but I can see Myrkul as a trusted partner/lieutenant), and I don't see a downside there.
On the idea of Bane's Cloak... well, it sounds like two of us have gone in that direction so far where the cloak drains people to keep him young. I'm thinking this idea works and people wouldn't be upset by it.
On the idea of Bane being a holy servant of Jergal.... I'm thinking this might be the point where people would have a problem. Personally, he's always struck me as an anti-paladin type, but who would he serve was always the question.... The problem is I see Bane with some kind of magical ability, but I don't see it being divine or psionic, nor arcane in the form of wizardy or battlemage ... hmmm, could tome of battle fit? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 14:38:00
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Hard canon facts on the dates but no proof that the Lost Gods were set free by Jergal in first place and that´s what i am pointing at.
I did read what you wrote, but do we have any lore that AO forbids the slaying of Kezef? We know that Gond and Tyr chained it, but any mentioning of AO forbidding them to actually kill it? No.
Maram was subjugated in the Border Forest Region which is northwest of the Moonsea region but still near enough. Westgate and the Dragon Coast/Sea of Falling Stars can be reached by ship from the Moonsea and vice versa. The Border Kingsdoms lie on the southern end of the Lake of Steam which had in the days of the Dark Three no connection to the Sea of Falling Stars, that canal came much later.
The Dark Three had to rely on basic transportation(we do not know if Myrkul knew teleportation spells or they had wizards teleport them around). I raise the thesis they used boat, caravans, traveling by foot to get across the distances and the Border Kingdoms are geographicly too far off to fit into the picture in my point of view.
A deity sponsoring a mortal by granting him divine favor for example is more than an average faithfull would get, this is even beyond what most clerics would recieve. I did not say they were Chosen, you make this connection. A champion has a special place only rivaled by the highest priests of the faith, only the direct Chosen of a deity is higher in "social" standing and that means they have the attention of a god who aids them. Did i say Targus sponsoring the ascension? No, i did not. Jergal gave the power to the Three, he sponsored the rise. We have no word on other gods aside the Beastlord Malar involving themselves in the quest for power. If the Three had any sponsorship of any other deity, we would hear of them in some way, no?
I do not try to proof any theory. For such to happen we need more evidence and no thought games, which is what we do currently. Your theories on the connections do not convince me and you are free to disagree with my viewpoint
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 16:17:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Hard canon facts on the dates but no proof that the Lost Gods were set free by Jergal in first place and that´s what i am pointing at.
Well yes that was part of the speculation: the primordials raise their head (6 of them in a relatively small timeframe) and the Dark Three are there each and every time to squash them while on their quest for divinity.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I did read what you wrote, but do we have any lore that AO forbids the slaying of Kezef? We know that Gond and Tyr chained it, but any mentioning of AO forbidding them to actually kill it? No.
My bad, i'm letting game statistics color my judgement, Kezef is weak and pathetic (while for example Dendar is appropriately uber powerful for her job) so the only way greater gods avoided killing him is because Ao ordered them not to. That's my interpretation.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Maram was subjugated in the Border Forest Region which is northwest of the Moonsea region but still near enough.
Nope. Check the map of Monument of the Ancient, he was cornered and bound in the Frozen Wood, about 400 miles north of the Moonsea, at the feet of the Great Glacier, saying that's the same region is like saying that Cormyr is in the Moonsea region.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Westgate and the Dragon Coast/Sea of Falling Stars can be reached by ship from the Moonsea and vice versa.
Uhm, yeah with hundred of miles of trip.
Maztica can be reached by the Sword Coast by boat, but those aren't in the same region.
The Dark Three travelled a lot in the heartlands and northern Faerun so why exclude they went in other places too?
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
The Border Kingsdoms lie on the southern end of the Lake of Steam which had in the days of the Dark Three no connection to the Sea of Falling Stars, that canal came much later.
The Dark Three had to rely on basic transportation(we do not know if Myrkul knew teleportation spells or they had wizards teleport them around). I raise the thesis they used boat, caravans, traveling by foot to get across the distances and the Border Kingdoms are geographicly too far off to fit into the picture in my point of view.
Are we really arguing if a party of primordial-humbling characters has the means to fast travel around? Especially when one member is a wizard of renown and scry and teleport aren't exactly super secret spells? Poor Myrkul, you don't even let him cast level 5 spells?
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
A deity sponsoring a mortal by granting him divine favor for example is more than an average faithfull would get, this is even beyond what most clerics would recieve. I did not say they were Chosen, you make this connection. A champion has a special place only rivaled by the highest priests of the faith, only the direct Chosen of a deity is higher in "social" standing and that means they have the attention of a god who aids them. Did i say Targus sponsoring the ascension? No, i did not. Jergal gave the power to the Three, he sponsored the rise. We have no word on other gods aside the Beastlord Malar involving themselves in the quest for power. If the Three had any sponsorship of any other deity, we would hear of them in some way, no?
All right, good points. Except the "we would hear of them" because we know almost nothing of a lot of other divine dealings and because the churches of the Dark Three probably policed the story of their patron divine ascension.
Anyway i just wanted to point at the "Meeting of the Three" and make noise so someone else with different ideas could come in and let the thoughts run.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I do not try to proof any theory. For such to happen we need more evidence and no thought games, which is what we do currently. Your theories on the connections do not convince me and you are free to disagree with my viewpoint
Aw! But it's fun throwing ideas around and arguing them until they crumble to dust or someone in the know chimes in saying something with "NDA" in it. |
Edited by - Demzer on 24 Sep 2013 16:18:10 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 16:55:25
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Look again at the Map at Monument of the Ancient. The Moonsea is the water AND the land surrounding it. The map even names the region Northern Moonsea, either to make it easier to locate with the geography of Phlan or because the greater region is called like that. We can ask both James what their take on it is and we have an official rulling. Sounds fair?
As for traveling, yes i do "argue" transportation. Teleportation spells are not 100% reliable and you can end up in a region you were not intending to go or the spell may backfire and harm the one to be transported. If you play a wizard and you know teleport, do you cast it on all your companions and tax your powers including the risks and the need to know where you go or do you resort to traditional means? Who says they were in those places before? Maybe the gained the knowledge on the road and narrowed it down? Again too many questions open.
Comparing Sword Coast - Maztica distance to Westgate - Moonsea is like comparing apples and oranges. The Sea of Fallen Stars is a region traveled for hundreds of years with the option to navigate by the coast if need be, the voyage to Maztica is far more dangerous and requires more skill, let alone the fact that i dare to say it´s a greater distance. Also who says they simply didn´t take a boat from Westgate across the water to nowadays Sembia and through Cormanthyr(since Cormyr was under the rule of the Purple Worm)?
As for policing the story, why mention Jergal at all then? They could have simply said they slew a deity whos name was erased from memory and claimed power for themselves? Wouldn´t that make them even more look "powerfull"? Adding other gods into the mix does not answer the standing question of where,how and when they exactly met. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 20:09:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Look again at the Map at Monument of the Ancient. The Moonsea is the water AND the land surrounding it. The map even names the region Northern Moonsea, either to make it easier to locate with the geography of Phlan or because the greater region is called like that. We can ask both James what their take on it is and we have an official rulling. Sounds fair?
Sigh.
So Northern Europe is in the same region as the mediterranean sea (Southern Europe)? NO! It's in the same continent, not the same region. Just because there is northern in the name doesn't imply proximity, the Moonsea region is the closest with about the same fauna/flora/climate (since anauroch was the Netherese playground and later a desert and the great glacier it's, well, a glacier) so the name "Northern Moonsea" is completely appropriate but the distance makes it another region.
Furthermore, we are arguing distances here and more than 400 miles don't get reduced because you (hypothetical, not you Lord Bane) claim to be travelling in the same region.
And you (this time you Lord Bane) still haven't answered if Cormyr is in the Moonsea region since it's about 400 miles to the SW from the Moonsea and "the Moonsea is the water AND the land surrounding it".
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
As for traveling, yes i do "argue" transportation. Teleportation spells are not 100% reliable and you can end up in a region you were not intending to go or the spell may backfire and harm the one to be transported. If you play a wizard and you know teleport, do you cast it on all your companions and tax your powers including the risks and the need to know where you go or do you resort to traditional means?
Really? Teleport without error is level 7, there. Problem solved. Next you will argue how many attacks it took Bane and Bhaal to stab Borem in the right place or what kind of check the rod Myrkul used to bind Haask and Hargut had, and since we don't know exactly, you will claim it's not possible because attacking is taxing on your resources?
They probably made parts of the trip on foot/boat: the Borem sidebar in GHtoR says they took a galley crewed by skeletal servitors to leave after binding Borem (and we know from Faiths & Pantheons that they stopped on Mezeketh Isle to bury the heart) maybe because they couldn't teleport with the heart (or is this a totally unreasonable hypothesis?); later to beat and bind Maram they used an army of fifty thousands people, no doubt they couldn't teleport them all.
But from this to say that they were limited in their adventures by geographical costraints and that they couldn't have been, come or gone to other places on Faerun with teleport IS completely unreasonable.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
As for policing the story, why mention Jergal at all then? They could have simply said they slew a deity whos name was erased from memory and claimed power for themselves? Wouldn´t that make them even more look "powerfull"?
Except the clergy of the other churces it's still around so you can't tip the balance too much in one direction and conjuring the name of some forgotten deity just makes your faithful seem arrogant braggarts ("My deity killed Mumbo-Jambo the Hippy Clown! But you don't know him, because it was long ago" ...). The hypotesis of policing the story was just a quick answer to your question why we hadn't heard of it, the other part of my answer "invoked" the canonical mistery that sorrounds divine dealings.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Adding other gods into the mix does not answer the standing question of where,how and when they exactly met.
In the "Meeting of the Three" context it answers the question, the problem is that this particular solution raises even more questions.
But since this part troubles you so much i'll stab it in the back for you: Sharess explored her darker side after the fall of Myth Drannor (from Faiths & Avatars) so that's too late for my theory to work and IF the "Meeting of the Three" has any connection to the Dark Three then it's an indirect one and not the one i hypothesized earlier. |
Edited by - Demzer on 24 Sep 2013 20:11:40 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 21:18:45
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In regards to the map, i suggested we ask the James brothers, who unless they state otherwise are responsible for the writing on the maps, if they would call the region of the Monument of the Ancient and surroundings part of the Moonsea area or not. I am willing to call the area Tortured Lands or Northern Ride if it makes you happy but why give the map a wrong description in first place? Cormyr is another area in another geographical place. There is no direct connection between the Moonsea and Cormyr, it is seperated by the Stonelands, the Tilverton Gap and the Western Dalelands. I go by the distance of the Forgotten Realms Atlas which puts the 400 mile distance from Zhentil Keep at the western edge of the Moonsea at the southern edge of the Stonelands. I do not count the Stonelands as part of Cormyr and i do not count the three regional areas between Cormyr and Zhentil Keep part of the Moonsea.
I get the feeling you take it for granted that a spellcaster knows every spell of a certain level if he is of greater power. You leave out the aspect that Myrkul was a mortal, prone to failures like any other mortal. We do not know if he was a "crack spellcaster", all we know is that he was a necromancer, how powerfull he really was is unknown to us. We do not know what spells he knew, what schools he learned aside that of necromancy. We do not know if he had a difficult time remembering certain spells or if he knew them all by heart in an instant. I do not assume that he was infallibale as a mortal and as a spellcaster. I do not assume he was a wandering library of magical spells. They could have gone to other places in Faerun, but this in no means validates the thesis that they could have met in the Border Kingdoms for the first time which i question and where this argument revolves around. Sure Teleportation is a means to travel in the realms and they may have used it, but i question the indirectly implied extend of it in your words and i stay by my words, geographical constraints matter. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 09:54:24
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Just another note, since we're talking the early movements of the Dark Three, there's also the "Myth of Four Rivers" from Empires of the Shining Sea. I'm not QUITE sure what to make of it, so I'm going to put the gist of it below... and then ask for theories...
First to note, this is a story of four (The Four Who are ever Spoken of in Fear). Its also important to note that the Banites are convinced this story is related to their deity, to the point that they keep a copy of it inscribed in dragon teeth hidden (said Dragon was a Banite). Its also noted that the story has some uncertainty due to the fading of certain teeth over the years.
Who are the four? I feel its important to note here that they seem to have all been male in this story (even the giver of pain, whom I initially thought would be Loviatar)
The One Who Breathed Cruelty - believed to be Bane by Banites
The Brother of True Fear - my belief is that this is Myrkul
The Giver of Pain - some whisper that this is actually Bane... personally, I'm going with no.. not sure who he is, but he did become a god. Maybe eventually Loviatar killed him?
The Warrior Whose Sword Drips Anger - my belief is that this is Bhaal
In the below, I'll use these references (Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal, and Giver of Pain) to make it easier to read
How old is the story?
"This story was old long before the genies reined". I don't know how much we can trust a story that's handed down like this... but in theory that would be before -7800 DR. I'm really believing this piece should be put down to Calishite proclivity towards exaggeration.
What's the gist of the story?
The sun isn't in the sky one day (Dawn Cataclysm? Re's death in the orcgate wars?). These four seek to find and capture the sun. Each goes separately to the Sea for aid to capture the sun which is in hiding, for the purpose of taking on their "Father the Sky". The Sea allows each of them to "carry her with them" so they might each capture the sun, their steps bringing water onto the land.
Bane battles everything in his way to the "Mountain where Gods Tread Not" and leaps to the Valley where they're all headed. Myrkul takes a shorter path "growing tall as the hills as he approached the mountain" and arrives at the same time as Bane. The Giver of Pain was misdirected by Bhaal towards a forest (with a phantom... I assume some kind of illusion of Bhaal), where he met something that no one will speak of and fled back to the sea. Bhaal then heads to where Myrkul and Bane are (The Peak that the Gods Fear/Mountain where No Gods Dwelt). The Dark Three then beginning assaulting the mountain until Father Sky hears Mother Earth's pain and pours a deluge of rain into the Valley and Mother Earth cries. This washes the Dark Three out and forms four rivers. Then a rainbow appears to show the connection of Sky and Earth. The Sea gained of each of the four of fear a child as payment for her aid (I assume this to be less literal and its the river that is the child).
So, what does this bring us?
Well, prior to their start, there were four separate individuals chasing one goal (to find and capture the sun). The Dark Three then met together and started assaulting the area. Perhaps this is when the Dark Three began working together (possibly as a result of failing separately). We see the Sea (Umberlee?) aiding them to try and "capture the Sun's power"... which she knows they can't capture. They head to some mountains that the Gods fear... so I'm thinking Primordial home? This all starts whenever the sun doesn't appear in the sky one day.... given my previous wondering about Myrkul and the Orcgate Wars, I'm just wondering if somehow this might be linked to the death of Re....
So, does anyone have an inkling where these mountains are? I assume since the story is in Empires of the Shining Sea that its in Calimshan, but it could have happened elsewhere and the people there just loved it so much they continued to tell it. Does any of this correspond maybe to any of the other myths out there? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 13:41:48
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| I don't believe that canonically we've ever linked Zakhara and Calimshan. I do believe that canonically we've linked Zakhara and Anauroch though (not that that helps). BTW, one of the things I'm wondering in the back of my mind is if we're talking multiple sun deities during this (i.e. maybe one passed and they were chasing another). Also, I wonder if Father Sky is Bhaelros in this myth. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 11:09:51
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Woot! Six day necromancy, i think i'm still in time for a Raise Dead
About The Myth of Four Rivers:
I don't know, the Myth it's either from before -8000 DR (in the introductory paragraphs it says that "[the Myth] was old long before the genies' reigned.") or it comes from Zakhara's early days. In both cases i doubt it has something to do with the Dark Three but maybe it has to do with the Calishite deities the Dark Three supplanted when the pantheons merged and they started being worshipped in the Southern Sword Coast.
About Calimshan - Zakhara connections:
Empires of the Shining Sea actually says on page 11 in the second paragraph of the Time of the Genies section that one of the most probable origin for the Djen and their slaves it's a time portal opened by Calim through the use of powerfull magical artifacts from Zakhara around 800 DR (the text says "500 years ago") to Faerun around -7900 DR.
About Murghom:
I know it doesn't help much but in Powers & Pantheons pages 94 and 96 (the introductory section for the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheon) it says that the Mulan deities were worshipped in Murghom, Thay, Semphar and the Raurin in the past and by the Time of Troubles their faith is barely acknowledged in Thay and Semphar and rapidly dwindling in Murghom.
About Myrkul:
I know that deities can take the shape they want but i think their avatars are kind of their preferred/most-true-to-the-original shape (just look at Kelemvor's/Mystra's/Cyric's avatar description to check this), so ... why did Myrkul's avatar have "scaly skin" and "four bony arms" (from Faiths & Avatars page 124)?
What's with the Netherese and all this multi-limbed deities (Jergal with 6, Targus/Garagos with 5, Myrkul with 4 ... anyone knows about a 3 armed deity?)
About Bane:
Just to throw something around and cling to the idea he was something of an unholy crusader linked to Targus/Garagos, anyone knows what his problems with Tempus were? From Faiths & Avatars page 37: "Although he could wield any weapon with proficiency(but was specialized in none—that level of proficiency was denied him by
Tempus because of a past attempt to seize the portfolio of war) ...
I know many will say that deities always want other portfolios but i like to take this as an hint that when Tempus and Targus/Garagos fought, Bane (that had connections with Targus/Garagos, maybe having been a champion of him in the past) was there and tried to snatch the prize from Tempus's hands OR, since he was under Targus/Garagos but then achieved divinity independently, Targus/Garagos himself cursed his once loyal champion for his treachery (and the divine ascension).
About the Dark Three:
Reading their avatars descriptions from Faiths & Avatars Myrkul gets the "classic" lich-like treatment (bony, flying dead thing that corrupts with touch and animates host of undeads), Bhaal had two slightly different human(oid) killing-machine-forms while Bane employed some kind of Tyranthraxus-like possessing spirit that could warp it's victim into a clawed beast with torn leathery skin through which could be seen "secret runes" (???), kind of a weird avatar choice isn't it? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 13:37:46
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| As for the 4th 'evil' in that Myth of Four Rivers, I am still leaning toward kiputytto, who's power was waning right around then (after Talona stole the spotlight). Disease and infirmity brings pain. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 14:43:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Woot! Six day necromancy, i think i'm still in time for a Raise Dead
About The Myth of Four Rivers:
I don't know, the Myth it's either from before -8000 DR (in the introductory paragraphs it says that "[the Myth] was old long before the genies' reigned.") or it comes from Zakhara's early days. In both cases i doubt it has something to do with the Dark Three but maybe it has to do with the Calishite deities the Dark Three supplanted when the pantheons merged and they started being worshipped in the Southern Sword Coast.
About Calimshan - Zakhara connections:
Empires of the Shining Sea actually says on page 11 in the second paragraph of the Time of the Genies section that one of the most probable origin for the Djen and their slaves it's a time portal opened by Calim through the use of powerfull magical artifacts from Zakhara around 800 DR (the text says "500 years ago") to Faerun around -7900 DR.
About Murghom:
I know it doesn't help much but in Powers & Pantheons pages 94 and 96 (the introductory section for the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheon) it says that the Mulan deities were worshipped in Murghom, Thay, Semphar and the Raurin in the past and by the Time of Troubles their faith is barely acknowledged in Thay and Semphar and rapidly dwindling in Murghom.
About Myrkul:
I know that deities can take the shape they want but i think their avatars are kind of their preferred/most-true-to-the-original shape (just look at Kelemvor's/Mystra's/Cyric's avatar description to check this), so ... why did Myrkul's avatar have "scaly skin" and "four bony arms" (from Faiths & Avatars page 124)?
What's with the Netherese and all this multi-limbed deities (Jergal with 6, Targus/Garagos with 5, Myrkul with 4 ... anyone knows about a 3 armed deity?)
About Bane:
Just to throw something around and cling to the idea he was something of an unholy crusader linked to Targus/Garagos, anyone knows what his problems with Tempus were? From Faiths & Avatars page 37: "Although he could wield any weapon with proficiency(but was specialized in none—that level of proficiency was denied him by
Tempus because of a past attempt to seize the portfolio of war) ...
I know many will say that deities always want other portfolios but i like to take this as an hint that when Tempus and Targus/Garagos fought, Bane (that had connections with Targus/Garagos, maybe having been a champion of him in the past) was there and tried to snatch the prize from Tempus's hands OR, since he was under Targus/Garagos but then achieved divinity independently, Targus/Garagos himself cursed his once loyal champion for his treachery (and the divine ascension).
About the Dark Three:
Reading their avatars descriptions from Faiths & Avatars Myrkul gets the "classic" lich-like treatment (bony, flying dead thing that corrupts with touch and animates host of undeads), Bhaal had two slightly different human(oid) killing-machine-forms while Bane employed some kind of Tyranthraxus-like possessing spirit that could warp it's victim into a clawed beast with torn leathery skin through which could be seen "secret runes" (???), kind of a weird avatar choice isn't it?
On the date of the Myth of the Four Rivers:
Yeah, I found the date to be an issue, and were it anywhere else in the realms, I'd worry about it. However, it being Calimshan... and Calishites being the biggest braggarts /fish story tellers in the world, I'm inclined to think this is just an exaggeration that just sounded better and was adopted with time. The fact that Banites were so enamoured of the myth that they tried to hide this skull and everything makes me believe that the Dark Three had to have SOME kind of involvement.
On the Calimshan - Zakhara connection piece:
Good find. So, there is a possible documented link of relatively MODERN Zakhara to ANCIENT CALIMSHAN, with the future going backwards in time. Given that its some kind of time portal, and given the geomancers studies into time runes... I wonder if there's any linkage (could be totally unfounded).
On Myrkul:
Hmmm, another good find. 4 arms.... my first thought is being a necromancer he grafted extra skeletal arms upon himself and used those arms for casting while he used a scythe. The idea that his skin is scaly could also be a necromantic modification to possibly toughen his skin.... OR, we had wondered if as a prince he was next in line to be an incarnation of a Mulan God... perhaps said god was Set as some have wondered (my initial thoughts were Nergal, but Set would also work). If its a hidden secret that Set was actually involved with the death of Re against Gruumsh (since right after the Orcgate Wars, Set becomes an enemy of the Pantheon for slaying Osiris and trying to become leader of the pantheon).
On Bane:
Thanks for bringing me to that section in F&A pg 37. So, Bane was known for giving powers equivalent to psionics. I wonder if Bane was a psychic warrior? Given Jaamdath's proximity, it would make sense. It also states that he was known for taking over other bodies, and we had been wondering how he'd lived so long. This returns me to the idea of his cloak as some kind of "magic jar"/"phylactery"... possibly one that requires blood in activation or something.
On Bhaal's avatar Choice:
Hmmm, yeah, interesting choices... one a very pale being bleeding black ichor... the other a 30 foot tall humanoid with fiery eyes,7 foot curved horns, a beard, and a long mane of hair. Sounds like a classic demon or devil lord... and I do believe there's some lore for a demon or devil with this same name. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 22:33:43
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I view avatars as the representation of themselves and every deity they have subsumed.
So if a deity has multiple avatars then to me that shows they have subsumed a number of other deities at some point and these deities exist as a sole avatar of the deity that absorbed them.
Avatar's as separate beings allows these avatars a measure of free will and so they can run around the realms trying to garner enough belief to become either a separate deity or take over the main deity (ammaunator and lathander were my inspiration for this).
So it could be that Bhaal has killed a number of weaker deities and each of those is represented by his various avatars.
As for Myrkul, what if the scaly skin is a clue to his race and that he is a Yuan-Ti at least in part. I realise it's a long shot but the old empires are the centre of an ancient Sarrukh empire and so there could have been a few human looking yuan ti running around many centuries ago.
Maybe the yuan-ti blood is what got Myrkul discounted from the royal bloodline after Set went rogue in the Mulhorandi pantheon and everyone became rapid snake haters.
I'd be reticent to have Myrkul be a yuan-ti and/or tied to the Sarrukh. It'd be much more palatable to have it be he was a follower of Set and thereby as a necromancer he modified his body.... OR that he had subsumed some kind of demon/devil traits in order to gain more power. Also, bear in mind, so far we've got Myrkul as being around more than 1000 years before the orcgate wars even due to the crown of horns, and Set didn't break from the pantheon until the Orcgate Wars. If he had been set to become the incarnation of Set and lost it, it would likely have been long before the Orcgate Wars (and he may have actively worked towards Set's ejection as revenge.... perhaps revealing secrets indirectly to the Godly Manifestations of the other Mulhorandi gods).
The fact that he is pictured with 4 arms for his avatar made me think he used grafts in life. However, it occurred to me... why make them the arms off of some peasant? Who says they're even human arms? So, since the point of this thread is for some semi-wild speculation backed up by canon..... Whose arms do you think they are? My first thoughts are a Charonodaemon's arms. My second thoughts are that he stole the arms of a fallen Untheric god and grafted them on after the Orcgate Wars (Nergal's?). My third thoughts are that they're the arms of some lich he slew. My fourth thoughts are that they're the Netherese archmage Trebbe's arms. Anyone have some better ideas? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 11:13:28
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Uh-oh, 5 days, time for another bit of necromancy (this is Myrkul's scroll after all).
A bit off topic, but since we kept discussing all the Dark Three i hope sleyvas will forgive me.
I was going through The Horde looking for information on eastern Realms and Kara-Tur armies and stumbled in 3 references to Bhaal/Cyric:
1) Hollow Crown Mountains: there is a lost vale with the remnants of the evil people of the Kingdom of Guge. This Gugari fellows are thorougly evil and are split in two factions: necromancers on one side and priests of Bhaal (named Niynjushigampo) and Cyric (named Sirhivatizangpo) on the other side. The Gugari were always evil and were driven in the mountains by the Kao dinasty of Shou Lung (that lasted from -225 DR to 800 DR).
2) Punakha Dzong: a fortified monastery run by a deviant sect of the Path that worships Cyric (named Dhulvarisatta).
3) Sentinelspire: halfway up in a canyon sits the Fortress of the Old Man, a temple to Bhaal (no alias) and a training ground for an order of fanatic assassins led by the Old Man. This guys are so fanatically devoted to Bhaal that they didn't register his death in the ToT, make no mention of Cyric and just keep going on training as fighters/wizards/rangers/rogues/whatever suits their needs for particular styles of assassination.
1) + 2) + 3) Makes me believe the whole Dark Three thing started with Bhaal in the far east (Katakoro Platue, lost Kingdom of Guge), he then traveled a lot, came to Murghom and met Myrkul and then they met Bane somewhere else in Faerun.
I say this because except the nomads of the Endless Wastes (that worship the elemental gods and deities connected to natural phenomenons like Selune) the other nations/peoples/cultures have different faiths/religions/beliefs from the Faerunian and finding 3 reference to the same deity (and the deity that took his place) relatively close together but isolated from the rest of the pantheon suggest me that upon ascension Bhaal remembered of his original tribe/kingdom/people and went there to start his worship and have a powerbase outside Faerun proper (with all it's scheming and conflicting deities/pantheons).
This means that Bhaal had at least two back up plans: one to have a mean of resurrection (siring scores of heirs) and one to have a body of worshippers far from the conspiracies of the Faerunian pantheon. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 11:55:13
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| Or clerics of Bhaal or Cyric simply traveled east and converted those people. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 13:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Or clerics of Bhaal or Cyric simply traveled east and converted those people.
Yes because in about 1700 years it's reasonable to think that only clerics of Bhaal and Cyric traveled to the Far East and tried to convert people ... yeah ... |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 13:17:29
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| I never said that they were the only ones who tried it. I never claimed they were the only ones to succeed. I merely added what you left out, an approach from the west which is not out of the question and withing grasp of a possibility. Could Bhaal herald from the eastern regions of Toril, yes he could, but we lack concrete evidence where he comes from. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Myrkul's early history & lost lore
