quote:

---

Originally posted by Thauramarth

Do you mean the reference in "Recent New and Rumors in the Realms" in the Old Grey Box? Ah, here it is, in its full glory:

(Ches, Year of the Worm, 1356 DR)
"Marchayn of Archendale, the feared "Mad Witch" of the Tunder Peaks has been found in het citadel, mindless and drooling, amidst chaos. All about her lay the dead bodies of the orcs (and worse) that served her, and much of her tower is now a fire-blackened shell. The herdsman who found her reported to merchants of Arabel that Marchayn (who soon died and whose body was burned by the herdsman) repeated endlessly "Dove! Dove! Smashed the Black Star... Dove!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

Hmmmmm... I've postulated that the huge, black diamond in the Crown of Horns is actually THE 'Black Diamond' of Fey/Faerie legend (given its corruptive properties, it fits nicely).

Maybe its the same thing as the 'Black Star', or it could be there are a series of these things (a different black gemstone for each, like Wooly's idea of a black sapphire).

If that were the case, there should be seven of them (to be the opposites of Mystra's seven 'stars').

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Hooded One
I recall a long evening of discussion about that artifact, Eilserus, and as I recall (consulting notes I made, back then) it aided Red Wizards in at least three ways:
A Red Wizard could "blow" all the magic they had left, one spell or a dozen, to power a teleport of themselves (only; they could bring along non-living items they were wearing or holding or that were strapped to them, of a total less than their own body mass) back to the artifact. In other words, a "word of recall"-like escape.
A Red Wizard could call on the artifact to heal them; it would drain the Red Wizard's choice of his/her own memorized spells, instantly giving them hit points equal to twice spell level (so a fireball, 3rd level, gave a wounded Red Wizard back 6 hp). The involvement of the artifact made certain that healing was absolute (wounds and organs knit perfectly with no scars, severed digits that were held in place during healing would reattach, etc.).
A Red Wizard could when memorizing spells (in the usual 2nd edition manner) memorize an extra spell of each spell level they could use, from the roster of spells in their books, and "hang" this spell in the artifact, ready for them to cast later (by silent act of will, no V,S, or M components necessary but taking an entire round of concentration). So they could "go to war" confident they could use a full roster of memorized spells, plus one extra per level.
That's just what my notes have, along with this cryptic note: "powered by a Tharchioness who can channel its greater powers out through a remote Red Wizard but will burn that wizard internally doing so, fatally if too much channeled, or deny any Red Wizard access to the artifact, at will; zulkirs forbidden to go near" (that would be near the artifact). We'll have to wait for Ed to provide more, and it MIGHT still be NDA, being as it's part of the history of the Red Wizards (Ed's creation, along with Thay, the zulkirs, tharches and their rulers, and so on) that an author might try to resurrect and use.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demzer

Rereading this thread i came up with a shaky theory, first some premises:

In late 2012 Lady THO shared this on the Ask Ed thread regarding a mysterious reference in Forgotten Realms: Adventures about an artifact the Red Wizards lost after the Time of Troubles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Hooded One
I recall a long evening of discussion about that artifact, Eilserus, and as I recall (consulting notes I made, back then) it aided Red Wizards in at least three ways:
A Red Wizard could "blow" all the magic they had left, one spell or a dozen, to power a teleport of themselves (only; they could bring along non-living items they were wearing or holding or that were strapped to them, of a total less than their own body mass) back to the artifact. In other words, a "word of recall"-like escape.
A Red Wizard could call on the artifact to heal them; it would drain the Red Wizard's choice of his/her own memorized spells, instantly giving them hit points equal to twice spell level (so a fireball, 3rd level, gave a wounded Red Wizard back 6 hp). The involvement of the artifact made certain that healing was absolute (wounds and organs knit perfectly with no scars, severed digits that were held in place during healing would reattach, etc.).
A Red Wizard could when memorizing spells (in the usual 2nd edition manner) memorize an extra spell of each spell level they could use, from the roster of spells in their books, and "hang" this spell in the artifact, ready for them to cast later (by silent act of will, no V,S, or M components necessary but taking an entire round of concentration). So they could "go to war" confident they could use a full roster of memorized spells, plus one extra per level.
That's just what my notes have, along with this cryptic note: "powered by a Tharchioness who can channel its greater powers out through a remote Red Wizard but will burn that wizard internally doing so, fatally if too much channeled, or deny any Red Wizard access to the artifact, at will; zulkirs forbidden to go near" (that would be near the artifact). We'll have to wait for Ed to provide more, and it MIGHT still be NDA, being as it's part of the history of the Red Wizards (Ed's creation, along with Thay, the zulkirs, tharches and their rulers, and so on) that an author might try to resurrect and use.

---

Upon reading it i tried searching for powerfull Tharchionesses, differences in tharchs assignments or other hints between Dreams of the Red Wizards, Spellbound, later FR campaign guides, Unapproachable East and Lords of Darkness but to no avail.

The other pieces of the puzzles are:
- hint that Escalthar may have been an agent or even a disguise of Mystra or Azuth (Ed-given lore);
- Marchayn's madness in 1356 and her message (Old Grey Box);
- Lauzoril's hatred towards harpers, bards and Dove, so much so that he created two intelligent weapons with the purpose of slaying harpers and bards (Shazzelim and Shazzelurt) and dispatched an assassin with Shazzelim to kill Dove Falconhand specifically (assassination attempt that failed miserably and that i think THO explained to us, but i can't find it or maybe it was another assassination attempt) (look for Lauzoril's and the two weapons writeups);

Now the shaky theory:

Mystra and Azuth had a hand in the rising of Thay and its indipendence from Mulhorand. Considering that Mystra 1.0 wasn't good she may have seen the situation in Mulhorand as an unnecessary oppression of free study of the Art and moved to help the independentist wizards without regard for the consequences and the fact many were evil.
The first hint of this is Escalthar and his absolute power over the squabbling wizards just after indipendence was gained: he was the best, had the best spell(s) and had a plan for the nation (the zulkirate) a little beyond credibility for single mortal.
What if "Escalthar" was just icing on the cake to give the newly risen wizard's heaven a direction?
What if the very first aid Mystra/Azuth gave to the wizards was the powerfull artifact discussed by THO above that turned the tide of the war (imagine a bunch of wizards with expanded spell capacities and capable of healing themselves and that can be sacrificed by turning them into tactical nukes and we can see why Mulhorand couldn't beat them, even with incarnations/manifestations still freely roaming around)?
My theory takes for granted the two points above and from that i hypothesize that the artifact in question was the real Black Star, that Marchayn in 1356 divined it's destruction during or after the ToT at the hands of Dove and maybe other harpers/Chosens/Knights of Myth Drannor (but evidence found by the Red Wizards pointed only at Dove), that Dove was tasked for its destruction by the good newly ascended Mystra 2.0 and that Lauzoril was tasked with/took upon himself the responsibility to avenge this slight (hence Shazzelurt, Shazzelim and the assassination attempts).

In the frame of this theory Mystra 1.0 was the powerfull (forbidding the zulkirs to approach the artifact) and mysterious Tharchioness that controlled access to the artifact and Azuth made a cameo in Escalthar's guise to give the squabbling wizards a direction in which to take the new nation of Thay (create the Zulkirate) and then disappeared.

The theory is shaky but since i made this up it's your turn to demolish it

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas
got more reference info on when the device was "lost" to the red wizards? I ask because if the artifact was lost after the ToT, and Marchayn was mindless and drooling in 1356 about Dove smashing the Black Star then, then the cart is before the horse, possibly. It would be interesting to me though if somehow Marchayn is an ex-patriot red wizard and somehow she was involved with Escalthar "the Black Star".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

It seems to me there is a couple of problems with it being a mythal/mythalar...

The first is - don't we have too many examples of those already? Seriously, the Mythalars are already redundant with Mythals.

Second, why wouldn't the Red Wizards have seized it at some point? Especially Szass Tam?

Third, the healing power doesn't sound quite right for an arcane device...

So here's my thinking - its not an arcane artifact, its a psionic one; maybe one of those Udoxias from Jhaamdath. Then the Tharchioness could be a powerful psionicist - strong enough to give a Zulkir pause (especially with the Udoxias in her possesion). Thus, the ritual that creates a Red Wizard actually creates a psionic link with the object, which makes perfect sense, since the Red Wizards are all capable of 'Circle Magic' (which, in effect, is a mind-meld of sorts). I realize this is more of a 'preference thing' (and I don't even like psionics), but I would rather something that potent be something even more rare/mysterious then a 'mere mythal' (which are a dime-a-dozen these days), with a good explanation as to why the wizards fear/avoid it. Making it Raumathari is a nice touch, but I feel it just waters it down even more.

Now, this kinda makes sense even from a meta-gaming perspective: We know how the (old-school) Red Wizards are supposed to behave, but how often have we really seen them using their Circle Magic? Its supposed to be their 'big deal' power, and yet we really don't EVER see them use it. Perhaps the reason for this isn't bad writing, its because they lost the artifact and can no longer employ Circle Magic (or at least, not like they used to). If they lost it somewhere between 1e and 2e, this would all make perfect sense (and, admittedly, would also make sense if it were an arcane/magical artifact).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay
The first is - don't we have too many examples of those already? Seriously, the Mythalars are already redundant with Mythals.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay
Second, why wouldn't the Red Wizards have seized it at some point? Especially Szass Tam?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay
Third, the healing power doesn't sound quite right for an arcane device...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay
So here's my thinking - its not an arcane artifact, its a psionic one; maybe one of those Udoxias from Jhaamdath. Then the Tharchioness could be a powerful psionicist - strong enough to give a Zulkir pause (especially with the Udoxias in her possesion). Thus, the ritual that creates a Red Wizard actually creates a psionic link with the object, which makes perfect sense, since the Red Wizards are all capable of 'Circle Magic' (which, in effect, is a mind-meld of sorts).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay
I realize this is more of a 'preference thing' (and I don't even like psionics), but I would rather something that potent be something even more rare/mysterious then a 'mere mythal' (which are a dime-a-dozen these days), with a good explanation as to why the wizards fear/avoid it. Making it Raumathari is a nice touch, but I feel it just waters it down even more.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay
Now, this kinda makes sense even from a meta-gaming perspective: We know how the (old-school) Red Wizards are supposed to behave, but how often have we really seen them using their Circle Magic? Its supposed to be their 'big deal' power, and yet we really don't EVER see them use it. Perhaps the reason for this isn't bad writing, its because they lost the artifact and can no longer employ Circle Magic (or at least, not like they used to). If they lost it somewhere between 1e and 2e, this would all make perfect sense (and, admittedly, would also make sense if it were an arcane/magical artifact).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

Hmmmm... I may be getting it mixed-up with another book - one that WAS from the Double Diamond series. Since I no longer have the Utter East thread on-hand (In searchable pdf format), I can't check that. I recall one of the books taking place there, as related to us in that thread.

I feel your pain Wooly, I feel the same way about the Giants trilogy, and the RotAW... good thing those have nothing in common, eh? {evil smirk}

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

Could be an old Bloodforge - evidence in what little Utter East lore we have says things these did have some sort of weird corrupting effect over time, and there is some evidence they may have originated with the Imaskari (either by them, or to be used against them). So the corrupting effect may have been why so many were afraid to 'get close' to it (this theory means the Tharchioness was protected somehow, but no-one else).

Aside from the fact that they could be tapped for magical power (including making a type of 'arcane golem' capable of morphing into other creatures), and may have been used to 'cap' magical (inter-dimensional) prisons, not much else is known about Bloodforges. Just that they are artifact-level devices, can be used to manipulate magic (in a large area), and are extremely dangerous. The Thayan artifact could even be the single Raumathari attempt at re-creating the Imaskari tech.

In the old Utter East thread, I had theorized that their were two different types - greater and lesser. However, in retrospect, I realize thats more then I needed, and I can easily explain-away the differences in power-levels by using some of the other (rather sparse) lore we know about them/that region: what if the power they held was based on the entity trapped within? This would shoe-horn beautifully with Raumathari lore (especially some of Krash and my musings on what was happening in the Taan region back then). This is an old trope - trap a soul/being, and use its power. However, the Imaskari were in a class of their own, and canonically bound at least one Elder Evil - thats some hard-core 'borrowed' power right there.

In fact, we may even be able to connect this with Eltab - that could be how they trapped him (at least one time).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

Picture having Cthulhu in a bottle. Now picture keeping that bottle in your house... with your family...

---