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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 20:49:54
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I just got my copy of the PF Mythic Adventures rules and like most of what I see. Anyway, the PCs can now be infused with 'mythic energy' which is kinda left open as to what it really is/can be. Mythic energy can be arcane energy, it can also be divine energy (it depends on the source for a given PC).
So, this got me to thinking. In general, I assume arcane energy and divine energy are separate types of energy (and psychic energy is different in my campaigns as well--in other words psionic energy is not arcane power).
In C.S. Lewis' world of Narnia we have the 'Deep Magic' of the multiverse. In Tolkein's Middle Earth there is a similar concept of subtle magic (Legolas' comment that the morning clouds were red and blood had been spilled that night, the Horn of Gondor making its way down-river to the Steward, etc).
So my thinking is 'Mythic Energy' can be a representation of the 'Deep Magic' of the multiverse. It is source of all power, a blend of arcane and divine energy (and all other types of energy as well). It is the final/deepest 'layer' of power (and yet that layer is infinite in both strength and complexity).
I suppose in the Marvel universe it is represented by Cosmic Energy (or perhaps that is simply another layer in itself-heck, maybe Mythic Energy is where arcane/divine/psychic energies begin to mesh together, and Cosmic Energy is deeper still).
Am I making any sense here or just confusing the issue? I would like some help fleshing out this concept a bit more. Cheers.
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 22:37:56
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I have not read Mythic Adventures in depth yet. On the little I understand so far I would say that "mythic energy" is a direct manifestation of the Weave or the underlying raw magic of Toril. This really would be the same thing as your deep or subtle magic descriptions. Of course, this is based on pre-4E lore so in 4E lore things are different.
I really enjoy the take on Mythic Adventures as opposed to the previous Epic Level Adventures set of rules. Filtering concepts such as Chosen, Spellfire, spellcasting learned by way of the Nether Scrolls, and other Mythic concepts fit well into the system in general and could go a long to way to reworking many concepts of the Forgotten Realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 14:01:42
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I would place this in the category of 'Primal Energy' (from the most-excellent Well of Souls series), which I use quite a bit to help explain how D&D 'physics' actually work. With that series, and also Marvel comics, I can usually find logic in anything (because Marvel has handled many of the big "Why?" questions about the multiverse already).
There is also the 'old magic' in many series, most recently Harry Potter (his mother protected him with her love, which taps into this 'old magic'). Now, if you think about it, 'love' is a form of worship, albeit (usually) directed at another mortal. Apparently, when you venerate something in some form, you send energy to it... deities just learned how to tap-into this mechanism. Once you first learn how to wield this, you are of the exarch (demigod) level of power.
So Mythic energy/Primal energy probably ties into psionics (of all things!), because it is a case of thinking about something - either positively or negatively - and sending energy it's way. After all, whats a spell? A formalized ritual in which you envision a result, and it happens. Since I think psionics is the basis for all godly power - because gods are really little more then great, big globs of sentience - that means beyond 'divine energy' (which is how gods deliver their power to their faithful) their is pure mental energy, which is probably this Mythic/Primal energy we are discussing.
Interestingly enough, it is also the 'magic' used by Lovecraftian entities (thats Cthulhu canon).
I'm not a big fan of the Mythic Rules (although I have not seen them), because they remind me of D&D's Epic Rules, and I wasn't a fan of those either. I prefer 'small stories', not planet-jugglers. However, by not allowing players acces to any of that, it gives me (or any DM) a handy tool to once-again create NPCs that 'break the rules' (which all NPCs did, way back at the beginning of D&D).
I would also probably lump Elven High Magic into this category as well - in order to access this demigod/exarch level of power by 'mere mortals', you have to use circle magic (so the minds of the casters are linked into a more powerful overmind), and that usually results in many of them getting 'burned out' in the process. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2013 14:03:20 |
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 16:24:21
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The Mythic rules are actually an interesting take. It is rated in ten tiers or ranks and follows a narrative progression rather than an experience progression. Since Mythic tiers are unrelated to experience levels, you can have Mythic adventures at level 1 or 20. The system is completely controlled by the DM fiat, so access to any tiers requires mythic adventures fitting into the DMs story, rather than just a new point beyond level 20.
I suspect the system is an outgrowth of Sean K Reynolds old New Argonauts campaign from years back. IIRC his original campaign before he made the sourcebook the characters were all new children or favored warriors of the gods. The characters started with mythic capabilities at first level to mark this heritage and patronage. The game itself was a lower magic setting in general. I think the system can work very well with an E6 style of gaming, or just as well working out the beyond fantastic elements in D&D that the Epic Level attempted to do.
I think the system still has a lot of work that needs fine tuning, and I would definitely like to see an ritual high magic system created for it. Give the system a look. While it can effectively be levels 21-30 in the same sense as Epic Levels, it approaches the whole concept from a different angle that I find more interesting. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 17:12:53
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So its not just 'epic' rehashed? Interesting....
Going by what little you've told us, it does seem to be story-driven, rather then power-driven, which I like. Many a 'classic' fantasy series begins with the 'farmboy' trope, and these rules seem to address that phenomena. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 20:06:10
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| It very much does. Essentially, a character has some source of being Mythic. It might be divine heritage or favor, contact with an artifact, a great prophecy, maybe your character is just a true badass like Beowulf, pretty much whatever fits your story. At that point of mythic ascension the character gains Mythic Tier 1. The mythic capabilities are essentially a second character sheet. At tier 1 the characters are budding heroes, but still have phenomenal capabilities. As a rough guide, mythic tiers add directly to level for determining experience but just treating mythic tiers as additional class levels is missing the point. As the mythic tier increases, so do the potency of the character and powers. At tier 10, characters are essentially demigods. To gain mythic tiers, a character has to complete a number of mythic tasks. At the most basic, defeating a BBEG mythic opponent or monster would count as a mythic task. However also think of things like the 12 Labors of Hercules, or pretty much any of the Greek adventures. So monsters should still figure, but other tasks should too. Monsters are given a different but corresponding system of mythic ranks as well. This also goes from 1-10 but the capabilities are of course focused on designing mythic monsters. Want Grendel? Grab a troll and slap two to three mythic ranks on it. Now it is a grand opponent for your mythic tier 1 or 2 Beowulf character to take on. After that task, Beowulf then defeats the mother. Finally he becomes King of the Geats and gains another mythic tier. Now he has enough power to later on fight a mythic dragon. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 21:35:31
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Yes, the mythic system is completely story driven and determined by the DM. It's not perfect, IMO, but it does allow for 'epic' characters without simply stacking on more levels (though I strongly suspect that is coming to PF later). I'm not sure I would want to revisit the Chosen and make them mythic through this system (although one could add it to them over their normal powers...if a DM wanted such them to have such power).
By the time PCs reach the upper tiers they become truly powerful...and not every DM will want to incorporate them into a campaign. By tier 10 the PCs are considered CR +5 over their standard levels. I will retool some of it to fit my own campaign but, overall, it's a decent system. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 21:57:52
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I am doubtful we will see an Epic Level progression directly from Paizo. In the beginning they mentioned wanting to make one, that was explicitly limited in number of levels, but also approached the system differently. Now, we have what can be basically thought of as ten extra levels, though they go in parallel rather than a linear extension of the original twenty levels. Mythic Adventures seems to fill exactly what they wanted from Epic Levels without some of the very issues that made them wary of it.
I understand why others may not see the Chosen as a specific crafting of Mythic, but to me it just fits. Chosen by the gods, power beyond the normal, a life of epic consequences. To me it seems like the right system to fold the Chosen into. To each their own however!
As mentioned the higher tiers are fairly powerful and not suited to all games. Which is why the system is done in such a way as to not make it feel like the players are being cheated if they do not gain access to it. These are not just levels, they are an additional set of narrative tools that alter the way the game plays. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 22:54:12
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For me, the problem of stopping the level progression at 20 is nonsense. What the game is basically saying is, after a certain point, one can no longer 'learn' new feats, progress in skills, etc. Personally, I've moved to a point system similar to the CODA rules used for the last incarnation of the Middle Earth game with some elements of GURPS added in.
One doesn't have to make characters beyond 20th level use the 'epic' rules...it can simply be a normal extension of skill progression and learning new feats. Plus, if a DM sees fit, he/she can limit the maximum base attack, save modifiers, spells/day, etc. to keep PCs from becoming stronger than they think necessary.
Back to the mythic rules: I agree this system is a bit better than the epic system from 3.x (it is approached 'in a different way' as you say) and I like the ruleset for the most part. It's just that it brings me back to my original point...after you gain the 10 tiers (if a DM even allows that) you're back to being unable to learn new feats and progress with your skills...which I find arbitrarily limiting. People should be able to learn throughout their lives...especially in a fictional setting. That's just my two coppers on that though.
I responded to your point about the Chosen for a specific reason. I'm totally cool with making the Chosen of any deity a mythic character (it's a natural extension after all). I just wouldn't want to limit them to the mythic rules. Thus, Mystra's Chosen would still have the powers Ed intended for them to have from the beginning...and the mythic rules could simply to tacked onto to them if the DM deems it appropriate. I really see the mythic rules as a way of creating quasi-deities (a term from 1e, examples include Murlynd and Kelanen from those bygone days).
Anyway, as to my original post...I basically want a way to fit 'mythic energy' into the cosmology in a reasonable and meaningful way. It doesn's seem to be pure divine energy...but it IS comprised of divine energy on some level...one of the abilities that can be gained is granting spells to a limited number of followers! This begs the question, is obtaining mythic energy a type of 'divine sponsorship' or no? If we want to incorporate previous lore from earlier editions...then I think the question is a solid MAYBE...because it doesn't seem to apply to all mythic NPCs (but it clearly does in many, if not most, cases).
I don't like having 'multiple' magic sources in my game. I prefer magic to be magic, divine to be divine, and psychic to be psychic...but with all of them tying into THE SOURCE at some point. This is why I used the analogy of layers of energy (a misnomer, to be sure, but I lack a better way of describing it). Using my layer analogy, perhaps each type of energy (arcane, divine, psychic) is a different flavor on the same cake, but mythic (and other types) of energy can be 'icing' between the layers. In other words, the deeper you go, the layers begin to blend with each other on a deeper, metaphysical level. I'm sure I'm not making much sense here. 
@Markustay: That is what I try to do as well...describe the 'physics' of my world through these differing energy types. At some point, they should all blend into the same thing. Call it Cosmic Energy, God, the Source, whatever works for an individual...I just like the idea of a final 'pure cosmic/divine/metaphysical' source of all power. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 07:03:08
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Actually, Arcanamach, it does make sense to me. Don't ask me to explain why, it just does. (I mainly don't want to explain it because a: I'm not all that bright, and b: I'm not entirely sure why it makes sense. Sorry, now I'm just spouting nonsense. Again.) |
Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 13 Sep 2013 07:04:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 13:25:08
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You make perfect sense - that is how I picture it working. We have dozens of different types of 'energy' RW, but at the end of the day its all part of the electromagnetic spectrum.
To me, psychic energy (I really hate the term 'psionic') is the end-all, be-all for 'the gods'; thats all they really are (and a hell of a LOT of it). We have far less of that, but have greater potential, because we are also so much more then that.
In my HB stuff, I have it where there are three basic types of magical energy, each connected to a 'world' (using the term this time the way the Norse did - like over-planes/dimensions). There is energy that comes from 'above' (psychic/divine/positive/etc), and energy that comes from 'below' (malefic/diabolic/negative/etc); this equates to the two-sides-of-the-same-coin magical energy we see in so many novel series (Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, etc), and FR as well (Arcane and shadow). The third type I call Eldritch Energy, which derives directly from the Prime Material plane itself, and is most-often also called Elemental energy/magic. Thats often considered the 'neutral' energy, because it resides between the other two.
Then I take all of that and marry it to how I picture the 'mortal makeup' - a body, mind, and soul thing. The body, naturally, is tied to the material world, and stays there upon death. The mind (spirit) travels to the 'upper world', and the soul travels to the lower (the afterlife). Both the soul and mind (spirit) are eternal, but can be destroyed (or consumed, in some cases). The body is also eternal, in that it merges back into the Prime Material and eventually becomes other things (actually, all three are supposed to eventually merge back into their 'worlds', but that goes deeper then I want to address here). Hence, each has a connection to a higher 'world' (dimension).
Various planer creatures are made-up of these different things, and have different powers and vulnerabilities, but only mortals have equal parts of all three, which is why they have the greatest potential.
This also has nothing to do with 'good & evil', or 'Chaos & law', which are just how people choose to use these energies. You can use Necrotic (shadow) energy for good, and you can use divine energy for bad, etc. Certain energies (and spells) are more likely to be used for one or the other, which is why Necromancy is normally associated with evil, but that's just a matter of choice for the user (and how much the power corrupts them). Like I said, think of it in terms of some novel series - in Wheel of Time, the male half of the magic (Saiden) is considered evil, but we see examples of it doing good (even though its more destructive), and the female half (Saidar) considered good... and BOY, do we see it doing a LOT of evil. What we don't see in that series is elemental magic, which has more of an 'eastern flair' to it. In western folklore, the closest practitioners would be druids (Ecomancers); they strive for balance. When too much of either of the other energies are unleashed in the world, it puts nature out-of-balance and causes much harm.
Now, in that series both halves of the magic are part of something called 'The One Power' (The Source, The Force, whatever), and its just a matter of what end of the spectrum you are drawing your power from. That, and how you use it makes Mages all individuals. The greatest Mages are the ones that can harness both sides of the power at once - Rand al'Thor, Richard (Cypher) Rahl, Luke Skywalker (he had his father's rage, but was able to control it), etc, etc... Elemental magic, on the other hand, can be accessed by everyone without a chance of it overcoming your common sense (although you can still become corrupted by the power itself), and many 'hedge wizards', 'wise women', etc, just access elemental (Eldritch) magic and leave the others (mostly) alone.
ANYHOW, getting back to the topic... I think Mythic Energy can be equated with Divine Ranks easily enough - each Mythic level equals one point of Divine Rank, starting at DvR 0. That makes perfect sense for Chosen (and other agents gods), and you can easily take all of the Chosen's powers and put them into Mythic levels (I don't think that would be hard at all, even without me seeing those rules). So once you have seven Mythic levels, you should be the (power) equivalent of a fairly weak lesser god. That sounds about right (without me actually seeing any of the rules involved, mind you). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Sep 2013 13:29:29 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 22:43:40
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| Your analysis is pretty close. Going by the 3.x rules, I would agree that mythic characters are a decent match for a demigod and could give many lesser gods a run for their money...although they would not be a match for a minor or lesser god in my campaign as I would give the gods mythic levels over an above their other powers. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mythic Energy
