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Bhaal
Acolyte
22 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 20:13:56
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Just a quick note to let everyone know, you can get the VERY BEST D&D adventure ever published, now at 35% off at Amazon! You can run it in 3.5E, 4E, or the new 5E/Next rules!
http://www.amazon.com/Murder-Baldurs-Gate-Sundering-Adventure/dp/0786964634
This campaign - yes, campaign - is amazing and will be remembered as a classic. It features you-know-who (that's right, ME!) as a returning star! Plus, mayhem and gore are heavily featured, with mysteries to solve and experience points to be won! How can you possibly say no to that?
Plus, did I mention that it features my rebirth in the Realms, and my long-awaited revenge against that peace-monger Adrian Abdel for god-blocking all these years? His death scene is hilarious, well worth the cost by itself, I'd say.
Get yours today! 
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Edited by - Bhaal on 26 Aug 2013 20:23:29
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 16:57:05
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| Bought it and will start running it at my Monday game. One of the best realms products and adventures ever! No word of a lie. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2013 : 18:14:07
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I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk about it from members here. I've glanced through it and the adventure looks pretty fun. Also dig the 64 page book on Baldur's Gate, tons of info there for bringing the city to life. The many cut-away maps for buildings is pretty cool too. The only thing I found myself missing was the classic Greenwood treasure rumors and tales he usually sprinkles into his work. The classic stuff such as buckets of emeralds found in a well or coins and magic hidden in a stone pillar in the Elfsong Tavern etc.
Aside from that, this really appears to be the best supplement wizard has put out, well ever I think. There's plenty of maps and just tons of lore and info. It's going to be really cool if future adventures take this format and provide a campaign guide for the area inside of them. My only request would be there are more treasure tales and other little mini-adventure hooks for DM's to use to get their groups into some trouble. ;) |
Edited by - Eilserus on 22 Sep 2013 18:15:31 |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2013 : 20:20:12
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Do players actually need any help getting into trouble?  |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1298 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2013 : 21:33:56
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| Wow, now I'm more excited about Legacy of the Crystal Shard; would LOVE more lore and maps for Ten Towns. |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 11:53:38
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| Hopefully this tome awaits in the mailbox upon my return from work today :) |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 20:17:17
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| I did end up getting "Murder in Baldur's Gate" today. Although short this must be the best campaign guide ever, with excellent artwork, and good descriptions - it really brings the city to life! I have only glossed over the adventure but it looks pretty good as well. The screen is fantastic. Love the maps, the tables, if all D&D Next FR products are of this quality I will buy them even though I'm an AD&D grognard. Only complaint is the flimsy wrap keeping the three items together, its already tearing and it should have been sturdier so as to keep screen, guide and adventure neatly together. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 02:37:20
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| Yeah the packaging is sub par but the content is awesome. Currently halfway through it (including the additional events available) plus I will run the dungeon magazine adventure. Using Next rules. We are having a blast with thus adventure. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 16:21:26
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| Here I've been wanting to have a city to base a whole campaign in...and this just keeps looking more and more like its the place I want! |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 20:35:46
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| I am a bit confused about all these people though, I'm still hanging out with Duke Eltan in 1367, but I suppose the adventure can be refit easily enough. OR so I hope :-) |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2013 : 19:09:46
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I wonder what some of the really experienced Sages of Candlekeep think about this product. I'm intrigued to get it. I looked at some pictures and find the product beautiful as an artwork but I lack knowledge about the actual adventure and lore in it. I am inclined to get this and the next one (I think it will set in Icewind Dale and will be an adventure like this?) though.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 00:20:45
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| I just ran a session today. Next session will be the final stage. This product has lots of room situations. It is very open ended. My players (human wizard and halforc fighter are having lots of fun. I'll tell.more later bathroom time babysitter |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 04:36:49
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I didn't buy it for the adventure, but more for the realmslore on Baldur's Gate. In that regard, I thought the product was disappointing. The write up was competent but in my view lacking in FR flavour with almost zero new realmslore tidbits. The content reminded me of the less stellar 2E Realms products that were farmed out to designers who just punched in information on the broad, pre-existing FR canvas. I could see Ed's hand in the product, but it had been heavily sanitised. If this is what can be expected from 5E FR, then it's going to be a very vanilla experience.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 04:54:27
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I didn't buy it for the adventure, but more for the realmslore on Baldur's Gate. In that regard, I thought the product was disappointing. The write up was competent but in my view lacking in FR flavour with almost zero new realmslore tidbits. The content reminded me of the less stellar 2E Realms products that were farmed out to designers who just punched in information on the broad, pre-existing FR canvas. I could see Ed's hand in the product, but it had been heavily sanitised. If this is what can be expected from 5E FR, then it's going to be a very vanilla experience.
-- George Krashos
That's exactly what I bought it for as well.
I haven't finished reading the campaign material yet, but from what I have managed to work through, I'm inclined to agree a little with your analysis, Krash.
Though I don't see it as being "vanilla," but, rather, just a preliminary outing as such, of what the framework of the 5e Realms will be like. I'm not prepared to wholly judge what's coming based on what I've read so far. I see this product more, as a kind of pre-5e Realms attempt. It's more about Wizards learning about what can and will work with the campaign material, and what more needs to be done with the lore to bring it back into step with what we all love about pre-5e Realmslore.
I do see it as being very generic, but at the same time, I can see there's love for the setting in what's written. It's just not really as pronounced as what we're used to as long-time Realms fans. Let's remember, too, that a lot of the early 3e FR material felt kind of generic at the time as well, with new designers and writers finding their own "Realms-focus" to carry the lore forward.
I'm hoping that this was indeed the case with Murder in Baldur's Gate. That it's just a first tentative step, and not a whole stride into the 5e Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Neil Bishop
Learned Scribe
Singapore
100 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 14:40:31
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I agree with what George Krashos said. It's a reminder of the bad lore days of 2E when we got absolute crap (that's a technical term) like slade's Netheril boxed set or some of the adventures which seemed to have simply had a Forgotten Realms logo slapped on them without any effort to make them feel like FR.
As for the adventure, it's basically just a collection of ideas that the DM then has to sort into an appropriate order and then create his or her own maps. In other words, it doesn't really meet the definition of a published adventure, IMO, and it's certainly next to useless as for the D&D Encounters programme in terms of how that is supposed to be run.
And then there is the gulf between the descriptions and the mechanics - the mighty Abdel Adrian who doesn't even pose a threat to a 1st-level group - and those horrible un-Ed names that were so prevalent in 2E and the CRPGs.
Oh well, it's good that some people are excited by the latest new thing.
Edit: Very best D&D adventure ever published? Nahhh, that's just hyperbole. |
Regards
NXB |
Edited by - Neil Bishop on 06 Oct 2013 14:49:32 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 16:47:05
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I didn't buy it for the adventure, but more for the realmslore on Baldur's Gate. In that regard, I thought the product was disappointing. The write up was competent but in my view lacking in FR flavour with almost zero new realmslore tidbits. The content reminded me of the less stellar 2E Realms products that were farmed out to designers who just punched in information on the broad, pre-existing FR canvas. I could see Ed's hand in the product, but it had been heavily sanitised. If this is what can be expected from 5E FR, then it's going to be a very vanilla experience.
-- George Krashos
No offense meant here, but this strikes me as both unnecessarily harsh and highly judgmental from a person who isn't buying the product for its primary purpose. If you're not buying it in order to play the adventure campaign, of course it's going to seem "lacking" to you.
This isn't a Volo guide, and it isn't one of Ed's famous day-trip articles to a particular region. It isn't intended to be either of those things. Too often, I think, many of the grognard ranks (myself included at times) only buy things for the "lore" because what we're really craving is a novel. There's no intent to actually use the adventure, no plan to gather a group to play this product through, so is it any wonder at all that people who make such purchases are somewhat disappointed?
For what it's worth, actually playing through the first part of this at GenCon was an immensely fun and rich experience. It definitely felt "Realmsy" to me, and I haven't enjoyed a Realms product since mid-3E. Playing it as intended is a critical part of evaluating a product, I think. After all, designers must create things that work for people who actually play D&D and not just focus on people who buy things as a side interest and stick them on their shelves for no other use.
Honestly, though, if you really think this is just material that's been farmed out to designers who are going through the motions, it's really quite unhelpful to compare it to "less stellar" products without giving a deeper explanation of what you really want to see in future products. What were those "less stellar" products of the 2E period, and why?
On the one hand, the city-book is designed as a relatively open sandbox. It has all the bits and pieces to make an interesting city, but leaves many things open enough that they could in fact be used in late 3E, any part of 4E, or for 5E/Next. It has many historical "easter eggs" both from the cRPG and Faerun's history, which is playful and fun for players to discover along the way. This is -exactly- what people asked for, by the way.
On the other hand, it includes a very tight and relatively linear adventure campaign that involves political wrangling, the rise of an evil god, and numerous city-style encounters. These too have some of that open-ended quality - though some themes and outcomes are relatively fixed (except for who becomes the Chosen of Bhaal). This is also -exactly- what people asked for, recently.
Again, if this isn't meeting expectations or isn't exactly what you want, be specific in letting them know exactly what things would have made this better for you. Saying things like "less stellar" and "farmed out" are not only unhelpful because they're vague... they also sort of douchey. (And for the record, I'm no designer and have no interest in becoming one, but old designers taking potshots at newer designers is pretty awful IMO). Personally, I don't see any evidence of "bad design" or laxness here. This came across to me as a sharp, well-designed and high quality product that was open-ended enough to be useful for a lot of people. And many people think of me as a "hater" around here. I liked this better than the 4E Neverwinter guide.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 06 Oct 2013 16:53:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 19:57:59
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But 'lore light' was the approach they took in 4e, and we see how that went. I haven't seen the adventure, but I'd have to agree with Krash's assessment as well.
Here's the thing - they are trying to harness the same formula that Paizo uses. One big problem - Paizo is working with a blank canvas - ANYTHING they paint on it will seem 'new and cool'. What would seem 'lore light' to us would be lore-heavy to a Golarion fan. Thus, the formula doesn't work with a setting wherein we know what color underwear a ruler wears on a certain day. Anything less then that level of detail is going to appear 'wanting'.
Its a shame, but it is what it is. WotC can't do FR the way Paizo does Gol, because she's a heavy ship laden with baggage. Think of how much lore needs to be provided to make us setting fans happy (not D&D players, mind you - they are two different things, even if some of us are both). What makes a DM/Paizo fan happy will never make a George Krashos (or any of us die-hard FR-junkies) happy, lore-wise. Its a task beyond the scope of today's type of RPG product. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2013 19:59:08 |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 20:28:16
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| I also wonder what FR products from 2nd edition are deemed inferior, out of sheer curiosity because I am completing my collection and so far it all feels realmsy to me :) |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 04:13:01
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quote:
Originally posted by TheriseNo offense meant here, but this strikes me as both unnecessarily harsh and highly judgmental from a person who isn't buying the product for its primary purpose. If you're not buying it in order to play the adventure campaign, of course it's going to seem "lacking" to you. (snip)
I have it for its primary purpose and I could not agree with George more.
Frankly, it fails in its primary purpose: it's not an adventure - where are the maps? - because it's just a collection of ideas and possible synopses for encounters and events. It's what you write before you write an adventure.
Oh, and another note about its primary purpose: it's supposed to be used for D&D Encounters. You know, pick up and play. Unfortunately, it's entirely unsuitable for its primary purpose because the DM has to actually prepare the adventure (and the maps) because the adventure isn't there.
Ahhh, memories of T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil: the fact that it was published incomplete because a feature rather than further proof that Gary never met a deadline that he adhered to.
As for sub-standard 2E products, the worst is probably the Netheril boxed set. It was a collection of silly little jokes - much like Gygaxian anagram and pun names - rather than a serious attempt to flesh out some of the (relatively) ancient history of the Realms. Never give your most valuable IP to a man named slade....
Anything related to the Living City is normally crap unless Ed's name is on it. Even then, there are guaranteed to be some very un-Ed (and un-Forgotten Realms) things in there.
However, 2E was, in many ways, the golden age of FR products largely because of Steven Schend's stewardship of the Realms and products such as the deity series begun by Julia Martin and more than capably finished by Eric L Boyd. For me, that trilogy stands head and shoulders above any other RPG sourcebook. If Helen of Troy had a face that launched a thousand ships, those three books - or even just one - are capable of launching thousands of campaigns.
(And I write all this as someone who prefers 4E as a ruleset and is currently enjoying yet another campaign in the 4E Realms.) |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 07:02:24
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In response to Therise, I point out that the Campaign Guide has twice the page count of the Adventure, so it might well be said that the adventuring part was not the prime focus of the product. When I use the term vanilla, I mean lacking in small, specific details that help to bring a locale alive. Does the Gate mint it's own currency? What do its coins look like? What is the symbol/uniform of the Watch? Badges/coats of arms of the Patriar families? Some new info on the taverns/inns of BG would have been nice - seemingly nothing has changed in over 100 years.
My comment was not to imply that this was a bad Realms product. To the contrary, it is a good one. But merely that. WotC have in my view only one more shot at this campaign setting. "Good" isn't going to get them over the line. Drop the font down, get rid of the white spaces and cram in enough information and realmslore such that you need to re-read it to get it all. Make it a complete product. Give a DM info on everything so that the locale can come alive. FR1 Waterdeep and the North is the gold standard in this regard. The Realms needs "great" products now. It is on the precipice.
-- George Krashos
P.S. A Campaign Guide without a single DR date mentioned anywhere. Who would have ever thought ...
P.P.S I'm a fan. Not a 'designer' . If WotC ever want to get in touch for my opinion as to how they can improve their FR products, they know where to find me. As I'm very sure they don't give a fig about my opinion, it is hardly inappropriate for me to criticise the work of others. I thought 5E was all about what the fans wanted ... |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 07 Oct 2013 07:16:07 |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 09:09:07
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quote:
I thought 5E was all about what the fans wanted ...
I thought the 5E version of the Realms was about making sure RAS can continue selling books. Seriously. The novels have always made more money than the TTRPG so it makes financial sense and WotC is, after all, a business.
If 5E FR was about what the fans wanted I dare say we would see a reset to 1375 DR (types the bloke who likes both 4E and the 4E Realms). Anyway, as long as the 5E Realms don't have a detail-free abomination for a world map I suspect it will be better received than the 4E version.
As for 5E itself, it's more about what Mike Mearls likes: a very Gygaxian AD&D-like ruleset, AD&D Third Edition if you will. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 13:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...I haven't seen the adventure, but I'd have to agree with Krash's assessment as well.
This, from the person who complains LOUDLY about people judging products before seeing them.
At least see it for yourself before judging it as unworthy. Yeesh.
Seriously, people, this is what's wrong with gaming consumers today. At least if I have a really negative opinion, I've read the whole thing through myself, with my own eyes.
Shame on you. Seriously.
LOL...
I agreed with George's assessment, based on his expertise with the setting - if anyone knows there is 'nothing new here', it would be him. Thus, as a a Forgotten Realms Lore product, it is WANTING. If I were to buy it solely for the lore, I would be disappointed. I don't need to buy it to figure that out.
I never said I wouldn't buy it for the adventure - it appears that that is quite good, judging by what some folks are saying. As a DM, I see potential there.
Fortunately for WotC, I no longer count myself an 'rabid (FR) fanboy', so the generic adventure inserted into Faerūn doesn't bother me the way it once might have. I no longer 'crave the lore' like I used to. For their sake, I hope others feel the same way.
My one conclusion was that WotC has to "try twice as hard to be considered half as good" these days. Paizo has it easy, is all. New world + new fans = a smooth ride. Whatever they tell fans won't be redundant; at least not yet. I don't need to read any product to figure that out - its just business. People don't like paying for the same info over and over again.
Will all of this make most of us (here) happy? I doubt it... but we are extremely hard to please. Will it get back those fans we lost, and even some new ones? Probably, if what they are writing is anywhere near as good as what Paizo is doing. The timing is perfect for people looking for 'something new' (and the fact that FR has all that history behind it is just the 'creamy center' in the middle of the cake). They can't do what WE do - dig through 35 years worth of material to find out everything there is to know about something. Thats FR's strength.
Will I miss new material? Absolutely! But I think we will actually be getting PLENTY of that when 5e finally comes out... and I am certainly looking forward to it. Right now, these products are just testing the waters of the market (making sure there IS a market), so they have to rely on 'whats gone before' for lore. We are stuck between rulesets right now - 5e shouldn't have that problem. If we want to ever see those delicious 'lore heavy' products again, then I suggest everyone buy this. If they don't see traction, they may just cancel it all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2013 13:32:51 |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 14:00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay(snip) If they don't see traction, they may just cancel it all.
Would that be a bad thing?
After all, under the FR agreement with Ed, WotC is required to keep publishing FR material or it all reverts back to Ed and he would be free to find a new publisher.
Personally, as much as I love FR OGB to FR 4E, I would be more than happy to see Ed have the rights once more and everything to be reset back to the OGB but have the setting purely Ed's, supported by certain able and trusted scribes such as Messrs Schend, Boyd and Krashos et al.
Throw in a decent publisher - Pelgrane Press, publisher of 13th Age, springs immediately to mind - and we could have the FR "we" have always wanted.
("We" is, of course, a very subjective term.) |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 16:39:37
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Still not sure what we are 'disagreeing' over, here... I think we are actually on the same page. I agree with everything you said in your response to me.
The bottom line is, I said "this isn't my idea of perfect'". You said much the same. We both think folks should buy it... for very similar reasons.
What I want and what is good for the Realms (at this time) are two completely different things. I am much like you - I would have preferred a straight-forward reboot, but I also know that would have crashed and burned. Sure, most of us would have been doing 'the happy dance', but there are like 5 billion people on this planet who would have thought otherwise.
If George says "its a bit light in the lore dept.", then I take him at his word. If that aspect of the product left him feeling unsatisfied, then I am fairly certain it would have left left me unsatisfied (and you said yourself you pretty-much agreed with that). So as a die-hard 'Realms fanboi', I am left somewhat unfilled... but as a DM who just wants to keep running Realms games, this (I am sure) is a great product and everyone should rush out and buy a copy.
@Derulbaskul - YES, it WOULD be a bad thing. I love your sentiments, and can agree with them... but in the RW it just won't work. You see, in the deepest, darkest, furthest reaches of Hell there is the hitherto unknown '10th level' - one so loathsome even Asmodeus does not dare to tread there.
Its where all the lawyers hangout.
Funny thing about legalities - the law gets decided by "who can afford the better attorneys" (ask OJ), and I am pretty sure Hasbro can retain better council then Ed can (and god help us all if this ever happened). I'd really rather NOT ever see this issue challenged - as it stands, Ed has a foot to stand on, and we have some hope.
And even if Ed 'won', would he really? The very nature of publishing has changed. At the time that contract was written, people still bought actual books. You can easily redefine 'a novel' in the eyes of the law today.
No, this a battle best left un-fought.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Oct 2013 16:42:23 |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 17:03:23
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Good points, @Markustay. Hasbro is likely to throw some heavyweight legal representation to ensure that they retained the FR IP even if they were in a clear breach of the agreement with Ed. (The USA is the one country I have refused to ever do business with. Because of litigiousness and the ability to legally avoid paying debts, the risk profile of the USA is actually one of the worst in the world. So despite the size of the market, it's often a very difficult place to do business simply because of US business practices, and I type that as a veteran of significant business dealings in places like India, Indonesia and Myanmar....)
And I am under no misapprehension about the state of the RPG hobby: it's basically a small business. I mean, even D&D itself has sales of under USD50 million and that's smaller than businesses I have started or run.
That said, and for the moment simply assuming he had the rights, I daresay he would be able to put together a pretty solid number using Kickstarter to produce a new OGB even if only as a PDF or print-on-demand release. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Murder in Baldur's Gate: Campaign
