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Bhaal
Acolyte
22 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 16:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I envision Myrkul as that which shows up when you're on death's door.
Showing up on "death's door" is my province. Myrkul might show up at a funeral to remind people that no one escapes him, but I am the arbiter of death itself.
Sure, I do the whole murder thing as my iconic thing. But death can be quick and sudden or it can also be slow in coming or even painless. I am the harvester who delivers souls to Myrkul.
quote:
A separate portrait featuring Bane ought to have one of Jergal's many hands on his shoulder too, hinting that Jergal may hold influence beyond the Court of the Dead.
This has never been the case since we Three ascended. I doubt that Jergal would be interested in taking on additional duties at this point, as he seems quite comfortable as the Scrivener of Doom.
quote:
There are also hands on the shoulders of Bhaal and Myrkul, suggesting Jergal's many arms (like a Spellweaver) and that perhaps Jergal holds more influence in the Court of the Dead than Kelemvor.
No, no thanks. Neither Myrkul nor I would serve Kelemvor. Count me as totally against a "Court of the Dead" idea also. It's one thing to have deities that complement each other and work in tandem, it's another thing entirely to picture some weird kind of "family portrait" of dead deities. No thanks to that.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 17:56:45
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/AGREE with everything Jeremy said.
Love the visuals....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 18:50:19
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Kelemvor's certainly a puzzle for 5E. I've never used him in my home Realms, because the ToT never happened, but I can understand why some people would like him. Eric Boyd, I think (?) did a really interesting take on the Kelemvor-Mystra relationship way back in his translation of the "Age of Worms" adventure path which was pretty cool.
Too many people like Kelemvor for WotC to just get rid of him, I think. Myself, I could absolutely enjoy 5E if Kelemvor decided to retire and die as a mortal, but I don't think that's very likely. So the puzzle is how best to keep Kelemvor.
I'm really not into the idea of a "Court of the Dead" because it really just doesn't seem "Realmsy" to me. Jergal as seneschal makes sense. But Myrkul wouldn't be any fun if he wasn't evil, though, and Kelemvor's entire purpose is to be passionless and neutral. I can't really see either one of those two "serving" the other, and certainly not in any kind of "court" system.
The questions here really seem to be, "what do you want the land of the dead to be?" and "what would be good for the narrative/adventuring avenues?" With Kelemvor you get gray/white silence and fairness, which is IMO pretty boring. With Myrkul you get mystery, fear, creepy priest stories, threats of punishment, and terrifying undead. I think Myrkul is ultimately better for the narrative story of the Realms. In many ways, Kelemvor served his purpose by being "the guy" who could take away Cyric rule of the land of the dead. I don't think we're really in any danger of that happening again. So is Kelemvor done? Is his purpose satisfied and he can retire? I think so.
I'd like to see Kelemvor entirely change and become the utterly neutral, passionless greater god that enforces whatever new "pact" AO has in mind. If any god steps out of their role too far, Kelemvor is the one who should work to put them back into their appropriate role.
Kelemvor might be a really good deity of Balance, Stability, and could even take the portfolio of Time - seeing that no being or entity (not gods, not humans, not elves) ever again disrupts the machinations of the universe.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 27 Aug 2013 18:53:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 19:07:39
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| I also want to note that I hope Myrkul stays in the Crown of Horns. I think he's a lot more fun that way, instead of being a deity. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Aug 2013 19:09:14 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 19:52:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also want to note that I hope Myrkul stays in the Crown of Horns. I think he's a lot more fun that way, instead of being a deity.
I hope not! Myrkul has millions of spooky adventure plot hooks that would never work with Kelemvor. Being locked to the Crown is just one thing - once you use it, then it becomes stale.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 03:46:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also want to note that I hope Myrkul stays in the Crown of Horns. I think he's a lot more fun that way, instead of being a deity.
I hope not! Myrkul has millions of spooky adventure plot hooks that would never work with Kelemvor. Being locked to the Crown is just one thing - once you use it, then it becomes stale.
But those "spooky adventure plot hooks" can still work with Myrkul in the Crown of Thorns.
We know he "enjoys" his current state. Being somewhat removed from under Ao's divine thumb would certainly have its advantages... especially for a former deity who still likes to meddle in mortal affairs -- fear and terror can still be powerful "weapons of influence" in his arsenal, just as his unpredictability still would be. So still plenty of opportunity for those "spooky plot hooks" you're talking about. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 04:06:02
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| Indeed. All the fear and spooky, with none of the restrictions of being a deity -- it's a winning combo. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 04:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Indeed. All the fear and spooky, with none of the restrictions of being a deity -- it's a winning combo.
so he's like Jafar after Aladdin tricked him into the bottle? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 04:52:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
But those "spooky adventure plot hooks" can still work with Myrkul in the Crown of Thorns.
Are you actually arguing that a single magic item has as many potential plot hooks as a Greater Deity with a massive priesthood, a divine realm in the outer planes, and millions of other servants with diverse goals and objectives laid out by their patron deity?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 05:25:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
But those "spooky adventure plot hooks" can still work with Myrkul in the Crown of Thorns.
Are you actually arguing that a single magic item has as many potential plot hooks as a Greater Deity with a massive priesthood, a divine realm in the outer planes, and millions of other servants with diverse goals and objectives laid out by their patron deity?
Perhaps.
Though wouldn't this really depend, ultimately, upon the creativity of the campaign's individual DM? And/or, the homebrew lore that the DM has written to support the campaign?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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LordAo
Acolyte
7 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 06:46:53
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Yeah, me and Jergal have talked. He is happy where he is at folks, leave the man be.
Although I am still considering the Simbuls various attitudes to be implanted into the new lady of magic goddess, she really needs some survival skills. Keeps rolling a natural one, when it comes to story plot. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 15:02:51
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I like Kelemvor as the god of death. I think we need a neutral god to fill such a role
I agree completely. I never much cared for Jergal when he was a god and frankly Kelemvor is doing a much better job. He really encompasses what it mean to be a god Of Death. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 16:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Kelemvor's certainly a puzzle for 5E. I've never used him in my home Realms, because the ToT never happened, but I can understand why some people would like him. Eric Boyd, I think (?) did a really interesting take on the Kelemvor-Mystra relationship way back in his translation of the "Age of Worms" adventure path which was pretty cool.
Too many people like Kelemvor for WotC to just get rid of him, I think. Myself, I could absolutely enjoy 5E if Kelemvor decided to retire and die as a mortal, but I don't think that's very likely. So the puzzle is how best to keep Kelemvor.
I'm really not into the idea of a "Court of the Dead" because it really just doesn't seem "Realmsy" to me. Jergal as seneschal makes sense. But Myrkul wouldn't be any fun if he wasn't evil, though, and Kelemvor's entire purpose is to be passionless and neutral. I can't really see either one of those two "serving" the other, and certainly not in any kind of "court" system.
The questions here really seem to be, "what do you want the land of the dead to be?" and "what would be good for the narrative/adventuring avenues?" With Kelemvor you get gray/white silence and fairness, which is IMO pretty boring. With Myrkul you get mystery, fear, creepy priest stories, threats of punishment, and terrifying undead. I think Myrkul is ultimately better for the narrative story of the Realms. In many ways, Kelemvor served his purpose by being "the guy" who could take away Cyric rule of the land of the dead. I don't think we're really in any danger of that happening again. So is Kelemvor done? Is his purpose satisfied and he can retire? I think so.
I'd like to see Kelemvor entirely change and become the utterly neutral, passionless greater god that enforces whatever new "pact" AO has in mind. If any god steps out of their role too far, Kelemvor is the one who should work to put them back into their appropriate role.
Kelemvor might be a really good deity of Balance, Stability, and could even take the portfolio of Time - seeing that no being or entity (not gods, not humans, not elves) ever again disrupts the machinations of the universe.
I like your idea about Kelemvor being a deity of balance, but I'm also fine with him as he is. Other than nostalgia, I see no need to have Myrkul back as god of the dead. I wouldn't mind Myrkul as a demigod who opposes Kelemvor by showing mortals the path to undeath. Maybe even making pacts with them like a devil would.
But I doubt that Myrkul as god of the dead would make the Realms more interesting. I think that Kelemvor's order that hunts undead is plenty interesting. We have more than enough undead on Faerun, and I'd rather see a god actively opposing it rather than encouraging it. Even with Kelemvor in charge, few mortals are at peace with the idea of dying, and most use all means at their disposal to extend their lives.
I think Death should be just as neutral as Knowledge or Magic. WOTC got it right with Kelemvor. I think 5e could find some interesting way to incorporate Myrkul without making him a god again. Then again, I'm not too fond about bringing back every dead god just because Ao said so. I'm not convinced that more gods automatically equals a better setting. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 21:18:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I think 5e could find some interesting way to incorporate Myrkul without making him a god again. Then again, I'm not too fond about bringing back every dead god just because Ao said so. I'm not convinced that more gods automatically equals a better setting.
Haven't they did it back in 2e with the Crown of Horns?  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 03:44:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I think 5e could find some interesting way to incorporate Myrkul without making him a god again. Then again, I'm not too fond about bringing back every dead god just because Ao said so. I'm not convinced that more gods automatically equals a better setting.
Haven't they did it back in 2e with the Crown of Horns?
I believe some folk were talking about that above... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 04:22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Oh shut it already Bahhl, you were dead for a time, how did it feel to have a god over you.
That which lives by the sword , dies by the sword. An you died by your sword. Who would want to worship a god who died already :P
Baahl The domain of the murdered :P, You can help illimater.
Worshipper of Torm, Worshippers of Bane, Worshippers of Sharess/Zandilar, Worshippers of Gargos, Worshippers of Mystra, Worshippers of Horus-Ra, need I continue? |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2013 : 20:37:47
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some stretched exaggerations about Golarion in here because it isn't commonplace
And Mythic Rules are out NOW not next year, I have my book
Pathfinder Mythic = DnD 3.5 Epic
Pathfinder elected to go away from just levelling from 21-30 as their "epic" PC advancement to a more weird system
they usually hit homeruns to WotC's swinging and missing, but in this case gimme level advancement so in the score of beyond 20th level it is 3.5 WotC Epic 1 to Pathfinder Mythic 0 |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Jergal, want your old job back?
