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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Aug 2013 : 19:14:03
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Yeah this seem really focused on various relationships and character development, where even most D&D novels not just just Salvatore focus on battle and action more. The only exception were a couple of novels from the lost empires series.
FR novels are really fun, but are not know for depth and deep character development, this one was.
Great novel. |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2013 : 19:32:28
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| Bruenor's stuff feels like it was inspired by Salvatore's Demon Wars work. I hope to see more of that in future Drizzt novels. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2013 : 20:06:14
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Bought the book yesterday and finished it about an hour ago. Have to echo others in that it might be Salvatore's best book I've read. Spoilers to follow...
As someone who was very against the idea of the Companions of the Hall returning in almost any way, I have to say the way it was done swayed me completely. You basically get to relive origin stories for them, and instead of making it seem like a long wait until the payoff, Salvatore actually gives them new wrinkles all based on their situation of having to live out a new life for 21 years before the big reunion. I thought he handled well the idea that they wouldn't be able to prevent themselves from developing emotional attachments in their new "lives" even knowing who they used to be. Also you see a fairly decent increase in power for the group (especially where Catti and Regis are concerned). Also I love the fact that they included a villain I have been curious about ever since the tidbits about it from Sea of Fallen Stars. It's little bits of lore like that I love to see finally expounded upon in my Realms books that keeps me coming back.
As for the book's place in the greater story of the Sundering, there was just enough intrigue and tidbits included to let you know this is only the beginning. I wonder how they will all tie in...as complete stand alone stories/characters but with the central theme of the big event happening or if there will be overlap with some stories/characters. |
Edited by - Merrith on 07 Aug 2013 20:09:57 |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2013 : 10:46:31
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| As im re-reading Companions i see that only "risk" in its storyarc is that we could (hope not!) get repetition of Hunters Blades trilogy somewhere in future. Otherwise its just getting better and better. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2013 : 17:11:52
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Just finished it.
And it was absolutely fantastic. 
Truly, this could be Salvatore's best work to date. I don't mean to sound trite, but it was emotional, heartwarming, hopeful, exciting, magical, and 100% Realms.
And... @Lilianviaten, the ending was SO good, I just don't have the heart to spoil it for you or anyone. Believe me, it is absolutely worth the wait of not being spoiled. As Salvatore said recently, "it's not what you think." It's better. So much better.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 08 Aug 2013 17:13:41 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2013 : 19:54:06
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| I have to agree with the positive feedback above. RAS' last few books were growing stale. In a breath of fresh air, he has reinvigorated his characters and set the stage for novel fodder for years to come. This is the first time in a very long time that I'm eagerly awaiting the next book! |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2013 : 19:58:00
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I have been not had a chance to read the last couple of days (life can do that unfortunately) and I am having to use willpower to not look at the back of the book.
For those asking about the map, it is actually the inside cover of the book and is beautiful. Maybe next time you find yourself near a brick and motar book store, take a peak. |
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2013 : 21:17:06
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**************SPOILIERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!******************
**************SPOILIERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!******************
**************SPOILIERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!******************
**************SPOILIERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!******************
Okay, I finished reading this book and will post my thoughts on it.
DO NOT READ FURTHER if you do not want anything spoiled.
First off, I missed the past two Drizzt books. I did refresh myself on what had happed prior to reading this one. I have been burned out and disappointed in RAS books for quite some time. Because of this, and because little changes with RAS books, expect a harsh review... With some good points.
When I began reading about little Ruqiah I was intrigued. Then came the bombshell that this was not a new character at all, this was Catti-brie. A huge "WTF, are you kidding me?!" type of reaction.
I know in the past that RAS has had repetitious issues with recycling story plots and characters. Every time one "dies" they come back. This time however I thought that they were indeed dead... and then this. HUGELY disappointing and another kick in the loins for those hoping for a dose of mortality/vulnerability for RAS heroes. Disappointing because most of these heroes were boring two dimensional characters to begin with. I haven't liked Catti-brie since the Halfings Gem. She became completely unrealistic for me. The ultimate goody two shoes, has a black & white moral code, always seemed to know at a glance the inner demons weighing down another character, and whom promptly cures them with words of wisdom. To me, she did not create good dialogue or realistic relationships-she destroyed them. She makes everything cheap and fake in my opinion. Disagree if you will, but that is my feelings on her.
I am getting off track, but this is my disappointment in discovering who Ruqiah truly was. Her character took a major downturn before she even got started. From that point on she continue to fill my expectation on a poorly done character. Despite being Catti-brie she was the daughter of two Desai people, two mages who loved her as any good parent should love a child. However the story continued its separation from reality when it downplayed the significance of the relationship between parents and daughter. Sure, RAS "explained" (breezed through) the turmoil felt by these parents who "lose" their daughter to the Shadovar, however it was never anywhere close to feeling real. Too easily these parents accept the loss of their beloved child. I think RAS should have written their point of view from a perspective of his own child being ripped away in this manner. Instead Ruqiah's parents were merely necessary filler for the story of Catti-brie's return. They filled just as many pages as necessary to move her on and that was it. Catti-brie herself seemed naive, never changed, and never grew as a character. Cheaply done. I give her tale a 2/10
Onto Bruenor.
I always liked Bruenor, though not because he is a deep character. Take away his title and he is the quintessential dwarf. Nothing new or outstanding about him other than his relationships with non-dwarves. However I always did like the no-nonsense types that don't waste all of our time conflicted with skin deep moral dilemmas such as whether it is the right thing to do to kill an incapacitated orc after the battle is over.
Do I like the fact that he is back? No. Again, it seems that RAS is either milking the payday from using his popular group of characters or truly has a limited imagination. Maybe a bit both. Bruenor has "died" like 4 times already? A faked "dying" in Crystal Shard (was okay-served a plot point), his plummet to the bottom of the gorge on the back of Shimmergloom (still okay), falling in battle in The Thousand Orcs only to come back (now it's getting old), and lastly in Gauntylgrim (seriously?). This dwarf has survived the fall of Mithril Hall, found his missing Homeland, reclaimed Mithril Hall and slain the Shadow dragon who took it, became the 8th AND 10th King of Mithril Hall (his abdication and reclaimation of the throne was ridiculous), defeated the drow siege of Mithril Hall and laid a 2000 year old Matron Baenre in her grave, turned back the overwhelming Orc Horde, struck a historical treaty with the massive Orc Forces, uncovered the ancient and lost home of the Delzoun Dwarves that no one else could find for a millennia, and helped end the threat of the Primordial. This dwarf has accomplished more than Superman, and he finally laid to rest in an epic conclusion to a great life. That should have been the end of a great tale. And now he's reincarnated. For what? Too sell more books? This character is DONE, he had his tale. Bruenor accomplished all that any character could or should. Bringing him back again is just silly. It reeks of no imagination, it reeks of recycling.
Vent over; I will say that I somewhat enjoyed Bruenor's journey. Of all of the characters reborn, Bruenor alone conveyed the frustration I think anyone would feel in this situation. Abandoning all he earned, unable to do anything while stuck in a babies body, realizing the ridiculousness of having to go through this 21 year process to stand at the side of a friend, struggling to cope with the reality of what happened and it's implications, etc. I felt from him more of this struggle than the other two characters combined. I felt his frustration and he acted out to his environment more realistically. It was also fun to watch little Arr Arr stun his fellow dwarves with incredible feats for so young a dwarf lad. It was rushed for him at the end I feel, and his "timing" was very cliché. I do not feel Bruenor really grew as a character, his changes felt more like mood swings rather than any real growth. I give his rebirth tale a 5/10. I would bump it up a notch if his ending wasn't so typical.
Onto Regis...
Regis's tale was the shining light of this book. Regis showed glimpses of a 3 dimensional character and is the only one who truly went through growth as a character. In the previous books Regis was always kind of an annoyance to me. He was the weakling that who always seemed to get in the way of his uber-powerful friends. His role seemed to be little more than to provide his friends with rescue opportunities. He always seemed to hold the Companions back. At first it was no big deal, it was new when the story was new, yet as the books became repetitious Regis just got old and annoying. I got tired of him being there.
Regis's rebirth was quite a change. I truly did enjoy the fact that he recognized that he was the "fifth wheel" of the group and did not want to be a drain on his friends anymore. He wanted to become a super hero like them and actively pull his weight. I could have read an entire book dedicated to his tale, and in fact would have liked to have learned more of his training and had more involved in his training than just countless hours in the practice room with his love interest. I would have liked to read more about his quest to become great rather than everything falling into place for him right in the neighborhood of his birth-including his acquisition of major magical artifacts-but regardless it was still an enjoyable ride. He even found love, which was an interest he oddly never seemed to have in the previous stories (strangely like Bruenor...). I did think it was very childish the way he approached the kiss given to him by the halfling lass. "I don't understand, why did you do that?" Regis, despite occupying the body of a boy, is an adult halfling who had frequented brothels yet he reacted like a young adolescent confused and fretting over his first kiss. I give Regis's tale a 7/10.
Now for the book as a whole. Again, RAS continues to demonstrate that he is like a enjoyable Dungeon Master who has 3 adventures that he recycles over and over for players. He stays not only with the same characters but they face the same moral issues, have the same conversations, stay in the same region on the map, and include the same bad guys book after book. The few times he managed to change things by introducing interesting new bad guys (such as Le'lorinel) ventured into new regions outside the north (Calimport) it doesn't last. It's back to drow, liches, orcs, assassins, shadovar, dragons and Icewind Dale, The Silver Marches, & the grounds beneath.
A big breath of fresh air in this book was that there was MORE dialogue and FEWER pointless battles to showcase the hero's talents over and over again. Sure, there was still some of that (outside of Regis who was developing his heroic skills and showcased them) but far less than normal. RAS is typically fantastic as describing a battle (minus wizards who all seem to be unimaginative evokers casting fireballs) but a good story relies on good dialogue. We do not need a fight every 50 pages to show what the heroes can do-particularly this group. They do not have to fight someone on the road every time they go from one town to the next. This book does a far better job of this than many previous RAS books.
The ending was no surprise to me. From the very beginning I FULLY expected Wulfgar to pop up in the end. I guess the only surprise is that he didn't make is appearance at the last second charging in with Aegis-Fang and a cry to Tempus. Beyond that, no surprise whatsoever. So we are left with all 5 of the Companions of the Hall reunited to adventure once more as if we haven't been there, done that. They had gone flat a long time ago which is why I was hoping to read Drizzt books where he had completely left the North and his old life behind following the death of his friends to adventure in new regions, making completely new friends, and laying low completely new enemies. For a quick example off of the top of my head I would be very intrigued with a Drizzt tale similar to the latest Wolverine movie where his wandering led him to be a ronin in a land like ancient Japan, full of a developed warrior society with foreign moral codes grounded in a culture outside of his understanding. I can think of a 100 ways that could go. It would have been extremely compelling and a new tale for Drizzt... Or a number of other completely inventive ideas. Instead of this we are set up for more of the same which is a big disappointment for me. I give the book a 5/10 and once again resign to the fact that RAS is going to continue to recycle the same tale over and over again. We will see more drow conflicts with Drizzt and Co, more liches to fight, more Shadovar, more orcs, and special appearances by Jarlaxle, Entreri, the Harpells, Mithril Hall, etc for the sake of their appearance. I loved these the first time I read this tale, but for the umpteenth time it's just flat. |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
Edited by - Slaygrim on 08 Aug 2013 21:17:52 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 04:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
Now for the book as a whole. Again, RAS continues to demonstrate that he is like a enjoyable Dungeon Master who has 3 adventures that he recycles over and over for players. He stays not only with the same characters but they face the same moral issues, have the same conversations, stay in the same region on the map, and include the same bad guys book after book. The few times he managed to change things by introducing interesting new bad guys (such as Le'lorinel) ventured into new regions outside the north (Calimport) it doesn't last. It's back to drow, liches, orcs, assassins, shadovar, dragons and Icewind Dale, The Silver Marches, & the grounds beneath.
I'm not quite following you. Of course, everybody is entitled to like or dislike whatever. But the stated rationale of your critique doesn't add up, to me.
You say that RAS uses the same enemies. But then, you go on to name 6. How is 6 the same bad guys, or the same adventures? (And that's completely ignoring pirates and the political intrigue of lords and magistrates, or any of the numerous new enemies encountered in Gauntlgrym or Neverwinter.)
You say that he stays in the same region (ID or the SM), but haven't the last several books been set along the Sword Coast (namely, Neverwinter, as in "The Neverwinter Saga")? There have also been Menzoberranzan, Luskan, Waterdeep, Auckney, and Carradoon/the Snowflake Mountains.
I can understand wanting closure or death of major characters, and feeling dissatisfied that this tale just keeps going and going . . .
But I think that that criticism really only works if you don't like the characters. I dont mind them continuing on and on, because I like the characters. They don't bother me, so neither does their continuance.
As far as Drizzt's diaries repeating familiar issues, I have to say that real life people have similar hang-ups. Some people never get over certain points, and go to their graves still harping on them. It's not the most pleasant character trait, of course. But it is certainly realistic and relatable. I would even go so far as to say that it's actually more realistic than having everything solved and filed away, like so many episodic TV shows. That's just too convenient. Real life is messier than that. Realistic characters are neurotic and obsessive.
It just sounds to me like you simply don't like the characters, so you extend that into not liking the author. But your specific reasons stated don't really make much sense to me. It just seems like a subjective, aesthetic difference of likes or dislikes, rather than anything rational or tangible.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 12:13:54
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Does Shade Enclave take a prominent role in this book? If so, who among the princes have fair amount of novel time? Spoilers do not spoil anything for me, so . . .
Thanks in advance! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 14:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does Shade Enclave take a prominent role in this book? If so, who among the princes have fair amount of novel time?
Shade enclave, yes, very involved. None of the princes are featured or even mentioned, though.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 16:27:15
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
Now for the book as a whole. Again, RAS continues to demonstrate that he is like a enjoyable Dungeon Master who has 3 adventures that he recycles over and over for players. He stays not only with the same characters but they face the same moral issues, have the same conversations, stay in the same region on the map, and include the same bad guys book after book. The few times he managed to change things by introducing interesting new bad guys (such as Le'lorinel) ventured into new regions outside the north (Calimport) it doesn't last. It's back to drow, liches, orcs, assassins, shadovar, dragons and Icewind Dale, The Silver Marches, & the grounds beneath.
I'm not quite following you. Of course, everybody is entitled to like or dislike whatever. But the stated rationale of your critique doesn't add up, to me.
You say that RAS uses the same enemies. But then, you go on to name 6. How is 6 the same bad guys, or the same adventures? (And that's completely ignoring pirates and the political intrigue of lords and magistrates, or any of the numerous new enemies encountered in Gauntlgrym or Neverwinter.)
You say that he stays in the same region (ID or the SM), but haven't the last several books been set along the Sword Coast (namely, Neverwinter, as in "The Neverwinter Saga")? There have also been Menzoberranzan, Luskan, Waterdeep, Auckney, and Carradoon/the Snowflake Mountains.
I can understand wanting closure or death of major characters, and feeling dissatisfied that this tale just keeps going and going . . .
But I think that that criticism really only works if you don't like the characters. I dont mind them continuing on and on, because I like the characters. They don't bother me, so neither does their continuance.
As far as Drizzt's diaries repeating familiar issues, I have to say that real life people have similar hang-ups. Some people never get over certain points, and go to their graves still harping on them. It's not the most pleasant character trait, of course. But it is certainly realistic and relatable. I would even go so far as to say that it's actually more realistic than having everything solved and filed away, like so many episodic TV shows. That's just too convenient. Real life is messier than that. Realistic characters are neurotic and obsessive.
It just sounds to me like you simply don't like the characters, so you extend that into not liking the author. But your specific reasons stated don't really make much sense to me. It just seems like a subjective, aesthetic difference of likes or dislikes, rather than anything rational or tangible.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
what the hell is the point in continuing to read the drizzt novels.how can there possibly be any tension felt for the characters if they are effectively unkillable.and for the record yes I hate bruenor and cattie with a passion.but I like drizzt and loved Wulfgar so read the books.but this is just ..........I'm pretty much speechless at this ridiculous turn of events.congratulations salvatore.youve just lost a reader.although I'm sure the money will come flooding in for you.which is probably why you brought back your cash cow in the first place. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 17:47:58
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I must say I was extremely skeptical on the thought of the crew coming back to life, because I was certainly more interested in a new Companions with Jarlaxle, Artemis and co.(sans the bitch). However, I was happy with the way Bob brought them back to life. Bruenor's story was great from the start. Catti-brie...well, was her old self, rather stale, but she did get to know her parents this time around a little bit better.
Regis though...started out pretty slow to me, but it was WELL worth the wait and was the best of the three detailed. I love this new Regis. I never cared much for Regis throughout the series. Can't wait to see him show off his newfound fighting prowess to Drizzt. Perhaps he'll get a little additional training from him?
I'm looking forward for the series to continue but I fear that it'll be the same old stuff to save a friend and kingdom as they will adventure off to take care of Pwent and deal with Tiago in Gauntlygrm, and return to Mithril Hall afterwards to deal with a looming threat. I think the one big change you'll see out of the new, old CotH is that Regis will eventually split from the group and return to Delthuntle in Aglarond. Perhaps Bruenor will also part ways to stay on as king again at Mithril Hall? One thing is bound to be certain: Drizzt and Catti-Brie won't part each other's company.
Also enjoyed Jarlaxle making a cameo. Here's hoping that he and Athrogate appear in the future books as well. I'm finding it more and more enjoyable reading about them over Drizzt and co. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 18:38:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does Shade Enclave take a prominent role in this book? If so, who among the princes have fair amount of novel time?
Shade enclave, yes, very involved. None of the princes are featured or even mentioned, though.
Wise move on Salvatore's part. Rivalen and Brennus have been used extensively by Kemp. Melegaunt and Yder were used a lot in Denning's books (ROTA trilogy). Telamont was used by Kemp and Denning.
Plus, Erin Evans and Erik Scott de Bie have also used the Shades in their recent books. By Salvatore using those 2 powerful warlocks, instead of the princes, he avoided potentially stepping on anybody's toes.
That's probably been my favorite aspect of 4e. We've had a chance to see a major setting villain used by several authors, and the approach was seamless. They all focused on different aspects of Netheril. |
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 21:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I'm not quite following you. Of course, everybody is entitled to like or dislike whatever. But the stated rationale of your critique doesn't add up, to me.
You say that RAS uses the same enemies. But then, you go on to name 6. How is 6 the same bad guys, or the same adventures? (And that's completely ignoring pirates and the political intrigue of lords and magistrates, or any of the numerous new enemies encountered in Gauntlgrym or Neverwinter.)
When there are like 20+ novels so far and the drow have been used 10+ times, the orcs 3, Errtu 3, the Shadovar 4+, Entreri as a villain 5+, and so on. There are of course hints in The Companions that these guys will be returning yet again. The drow are going to be back to antagonize the group, the Shadovar are still lurking, Bruenor wants to go after orcs again, and so on. So repetition in the past and on the horizon as well.
My annoyance is not so much how many times it has happened-which is considerable-but that now that he recycled his dead characters and recreated the Companions of the Hall he then hints towards more of the same villians in the future books. That's what really fueled my head shaking. Not only do you-once again-bring your characters back from the dead but now you are going to use the same villains too? Dude...
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
You say that he stays in the same region (ID or the SM), but haven't the last several books been set along the Sword Coast (namely, Neverwinter, as in "The Neverwinter Saga")? There have also been Menzoberranzan, Luskan, Waterdeep, Auckney, and Carradoon/the Snowflake Mountains.
The few forays into Waterdeep are fine, but pit stops are not truly story locations. And Neverwinter, Auckney, Luskan, Menzoberranzan, etc... these are all in the same region. They are all in the North.
There have been a few occassions where the story has taken brief breaks from the North, and that's what I'd like to see more of. Something fresh. Beast, when you're approaching 30 books tied to this tale it needs a little refreshment. Doing very similar things in very similar areas with the same characters and villains THIS many times... it's just stale.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I can understand wanting closure or death of major characters, and feeling dissatisfied that this tale just keeps going and going . . .
But I think that that criticism really only works if you don't like the characters. I dont mind them continuing on and on, because I like the characters. They don't bother me, so neither does their continuance.
I understand Beast, and I know you're a big RAS fan. You're a regular on his boards and have been for many years. Look, RAS got me into reading fantasy. To this day, even though I have "grown up" and read superior writings from GRRM, Patrick Rothfuss, Brent Weeks (Lightbringer Series), Brandon Sanderson, etc I still can go back and truly enjoy reading the Icewind Dale Trilogy, the Dark Elf Trilogy, the Legacy, and Starless Night. But after that things just became way too repetetive and predictable.
Drizzt moved away from being that dashing, daring, and dangerous drow to a whiney mental midget struggling with cheasy moral dilemmas. Wulfgar became an angry brute whom RAS seemed confused on how to use (and only became interesting again for one book, SotW). Bruenor started doing weird things like abdicating his throne to an ancestor who-for whatever reason-decided he wanted to be King again despite being "dead" for 2000 years and knowing no one. Then Bruenor decided he wanted to be King again after the old one died, and then wanted out again. And here he is resurrected and once more wanting to be King again... and then not. It's just silly. Regis went stale and had nothing to offer after he served his purpose through the Halfings Gem and just became this tag along who couldn't tie his shoes without needing to be saved. Cat went from innocent yet dwarf tough girl drawn into deep waters after being abducted by Entreri and into this super hero paladin chick who knew the soul of everyone she met. And it just kept repeating itself.
Even before 4ed and the Spellplague, I long thought the tale of Drizzt would improve and things could be fresh again if he found new companions and ventured into new lands. Then 4ed came out and I thought, YES, WE HAVE A CHANCE AT THIS!
But we did not get new lands. Drizzt moped around the North for 100 years feeling sorry for himself that his friends of 25 years (sans Bruenor) died. Never making new friends or companions (until Dahlia) during this long timeframe either (odd...). RAS blew a chance to revitalize the Drizzt story with something new. And by bringing back his old crew he not only continued this trend of lacking creativity, but he completely killed any mortality his story may have had. If anyone was foolish enough to truly feel like his heroes can die and be gone they certainly are not going to fall for this any longer. Hell, I'm expecting Cadderly to be freed/ressurrected next.
My point is that RAS's tale of Drizzt and company will always hold a place in my heart because it is what drew me in from the start. The early works are still good. But RAS has blown far too many chances to show some creativity and do something NEW with Drizzt.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It just sounds to me like you simply don't like the characters, so you extend that into not liking the author. But your specific reasons stated don't really make much sense to me. It just seems like a subjective, aesthetic difference of likes or dislikes, rather than anything rational or tangible.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I'd say you are wrong. I still like Drizzt, even though he has changed for the worse. I still like Bruenor even though the only thing he has changed is his mind about being King. Regis has improved IMO and I like him now more than ever... because he has actually GROWN. I always liked Wulfgar but Bob seemed lost on what to do with him. His personality and what he would do really seemed to create obstacles for the story RAS wanted to write. Catti-brie... well yeah, she sucks IMO. I stopped liking her around the Legacy.
What I don't like is how mortality is a joke in this tale. I don't like how characters are "killed" and brought back a dozen times. I don't like weird and unrealistic actions taking place by characters such as Bruenor dreaming his whole life to be King, becomes King, resigns, becomes King again, resigns, dies, comes back and wants to be King again, but then changes his mind... Just silliness. And the tale has suffered for it. But I bet RAS has sold a ton of books. |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 22:22:46
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| Anyone notice in The Companions it was mentioned, by Drizzt or Cat, that Drizzt knew her since she was a young adult? That was an error, she was a young child when he met her in Sojourn. |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 22:46:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
Anyone notice in The Companions it was mentioned, by Drizzt or Cat, that Drizzt knew her since she was a young adult? That was an error, she was a young child when he met her in Sojourn.
so whats the score with bruenors grave then.what happened to his corpse. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 00:10:22
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I loved the book, really. Regis's story was by far the best of the 3 and among my favorite of all Bob's tales. I would have liked a single book just on Regis.
For me, Regis and Catti-Brie should have been had this tale to themselves. Wulfgar and Bruenor deserve to be put to rest. I thought that going in, and reading it didn't change my mind. That is my only criticism, and I'm not even sure that Bob had a say in which of the Companions would stay dead and which brought back.
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 02:00:27
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I'm sure he did. The only reason they would try to push something like that is for $$$, but I seriously doubt RAS books have suffered due to the Companions of the Hall being gone.
I'm just a book reader, not an author, but I would have loved to see Drizzt with a drow love interest. Not an evil drow, but a Liriel type of drow. A drow struggling with her own morality. Dahlia wasn't really that for me, Dahlia was a headcase. I also would have loved to see Drizzt in the Underdark (although no assoicated with Menzo) again, or like I mentioned earlier a series with him traveling to a place like Kara-Tur. That could have been very cool if RAS fleshed out more about societies in the East and did a little "world building" like he did with the drow. |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 02:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I loved the book, really. Regis's story was by far the best of the 3 and among my favorite of all Bob's tales. I would have liked a single book just on Regis.
For me, Regis and Catti-Brie should have been had this tale to themselves. Wulfgar and Bruenor deserve to be put to rest. I thought that going in, and reading it didn't change my mind. That is my only criticism, and I'm not even sure that Bob had a say in which of the Companions would stay dead and which brought back.
The reason why it still worked for me was because of how Bruenor's tale was handled though, he seemed angry about that very same thing, for the exact same reason all of us are/were about it. How he worked through it in the story won me over on him returning as well.
Also, spoiler...
I don't believe that is really Wulfgar that approached at the end |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 04:07:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
I'm sure he did. The only reason they would try to push something like that is for $$$, but I seriously doubt RAS books have suffered due to the Companions of the Hall being gone.
I'm just a book reader, not an author, but I would have loved to see Drizzt with a drow love interest. Not an evil drow, but a Liriel type of drow. A drow struggling with her own morality. Dahlia wasn't really that for me, Dahlia was a headcase. I also would have loved to see Drizzt in the Underdark (although no assoicated with Menzo) again, or like I mentioned earlier a series with him traveling to a place like Kara-Tur. That could have been very cool if RAS fleshed out more about societies in the East and did a little "world building" like he did with the drow.
That would be PERFECT, Slaygrim. Salvatore has never much wanted to inject Drizzt into Realm Shaking Events, and Drizzt is a ranger. I would love to see him traveling greater distances, and ending up somewhere like Chult or the Plaguewrought Lands. He's done a lot of good in the North of Faerun, but it's time to move on.
Can you imagine Drizzt and the Companions in the Beastlands, felling monster kingdoms and liberating goodly peoples? Oh, it would be awesome. With this recent Lolth business, I almost wonder if RAS plans to have Drizzt return to Menzoberranzan and topple the power structure? |
Edited by - Lilianviaten on 10 Aug 2013 04:09:27 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 05:36:41
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty
what the hell is the point in continuing to read the drizzt novels.
Entertainment.
Isn't that the point in reading any fiction at all?
quote:
how can there possibly be any tension felt for the characters if they are effectively unkillable.
These are fantasy stories about make-believe people. I have a hard time getting that worked up about any of them, like that. The tension, if there is any, is from one page to the next. But I rarely feel any on a large scale. They're just escapist stories for me.
That said, mortal danger is only one element of value in storytelling--not the only one. There doesn't necessarily have to be a huge amount of it in every tale, across all genres. There doesn't even need to be a lot of it in every fantasy tale. Different strokes for different folks.
Is there really any tension with The Simpsons? How has it continued for this long? How did Law and Order go on for so long? Why is CSI still on the air?
Some people want to be comforted by familiar "faces" or voices. They get enough tension in their real lives. Their stories are for escape therefrom.
While the violence may not pose high risk to this party of heroes, which seems to eliminate tension from the tales, emotional drama still exists within these characters. Again, the threat of death or mayhem is not the only value in a story.
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I'm pretty much speechless at this ridiculous turn of events.congratulations salvatore.youve just lost a reader.although I'm sure the money will come flooding in for you.which is probably why you brought back your cash cow in the first place.
How could that happen, though, unless there were plenty of people ready, willing, and able to fork over said dough to read it?
That kinda answers your question about what is the point of continuing to read them. The point is that plenty of people (not you, obviously) still enjoy reading them, even with death seemingly not being a serious danger for the star players. Those characters are still beloved, just the same, and their tales bring comfort to a lot of folks.
When you write off "The Legend of Drizzt" so callously as you have done, you're not just insulting Bob. You're committing an affront to those folks, too. Their entertainment is the point. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 07:31:51
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| Bob gave the characters enough emotional baggage from their resurrection that it worked. Bruenor's plotline in particular tugged my heartstrings. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 08:01:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
When there are like 20+ novels so far and the drow have been used 10+ times, the orcs 3, Errtu 3, the Shadovar 4+, Entreri as a villain 5+, and so on. There are of course hints in The Companions that these guys will be returning yet again. The drow are going to be back to antagonize the group, the Shadovar are still lurking, Bruenor wants to go after orcs again, and so on. So repetition in the past and on the horizon as well.
Oh, no doubt, he reuses conflicts/enemies/locales/themes all the time. You get no argument from me on that.
I was just trying to point out that it's not the same (singular) one, every time.
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The few forays into Waterdeep are fine, but pit stops are not truly story locations. And Neverwinter, Auckney, Luskan, Menzoberranzan, etc... these are all in the same region. They are all in the North.
The North is an awfully big place, though. That description covers half the planet, if you think about it! So it's kinda hard to go some place and have it not be the North.
I think we (and of course Bob) would have to ask ourselves: What would be the point of having Drizzt go to the non-North? Why have him go to all the trouble of relocating to the other side of the globe?
Drizzt is obsessed about having a soul mate and belonging to a loving family. For all his would-be objections against those things, it's still the truth. And the only place he ever found such things was in the North. I'd say it's perfectly understandable why he is reluctant to stray from that place. Sappy as it is to hear (and for me to say), it's where his heart is.
quote:
[...] and that's what I'd like to see more of. Something fresh. Beast, when you're approaching 30 books tied to this tale it needs a little refreshment. Doing very similar things in very similar areas with the same characters and villains THIS many times... it's just stale.
Understandable. You're certainly entitled to want that, and to feel that way.
Me, on the other hand . . . I'm more like a stereotypical dwarf. I find solace in routine and near-repetition. It makes me feel grounded. It feels safe. No matter what strife and storming is going on out there, I can know that at least I've got some stability right here, in this Hall.
Those people who constantly crave something exciting and new just come across as unappreciative for what they already have. I think of kids mindlessly, foolishly feeding the latest trends and social crazes, which were of course dreamt up by some craven business moguls who deliberately sought out people governed by such mindless foolishness. I think of collectors hoarding widgets just to feel like they've got the latest and greatest of whatever, instead of simply savoring the old.
I shudder at the pace of change in this day and age.
And so, I just haven't really minded what you have pointed out about the stories.
If the corridors of this Hall smell a might bit musty, for me, as a dwarf, I'd say that makes them just about right.
quote:
Drizzt moved away from being that dashing, daring, and dangerous drow to a whiney mental midget struggling with cheasy moral dilemmas.
Yep, and once upon a time I had a gripe about that, too. I missed Crystal Shard Drizzt (pre-repackaged edition Crystal Shard, with the extra Drizzt Diaries tacked on). I wanted that reckless, occasionally mean guy back.
But eventually I realized that I was failing to see the character through his own eyes. I was only looking at him superficially. "Dance, I say!"
I can now empathize and sympathize with Drizzt's profound longing for love and belonging, and that speaks to me even more loudly than my regret for the loss of his earlier persona.
I think it took some time for Bob to really even figure out what kind of persona he wanted Drizzt to have. And this emo version of Drizzt is the definitive Drizzt--like it or not. It took some time for me to come to terms with that, too. But I did, eventually.
quote:
Wulfgar became an angry brute whom RAS seemed confused on how to use (and only became interesting again for one book, SotW).
Well, one mini-series: "Paths of Darkness". The character of Wulfgar was prominent in three of the books in that series: The Silent Blade (Drizzt even came right out and said that the use of that phrase in the book's title applied to Wulfgar's emotional state), TSOTW, and Sea of Swords.
But you're right in that Bob even admitted in some old interviews that Wulf basically got shafted when Drizzt stole the limelight from him. It was weird and unpleasant for the author. "POD" was an effort to, retroactively, address that.
(I'm still not really sure how a "barbarian" is even supposed to fit in with a group of what are supposed to be a bunch of civilized folk. Once he became civilized, would he still even be a barbarian, anyway? I'm not talking game stat blocks, here--I'm talking pragmatics.)
quote:
Bruenor started doing weird things like abdicating his throne to an ancestor who-for whatever reason-decided he wanted to be King again despite being "dead" for 2000 years and knowing no one. Then Bruenor decided he wanted to be King again after the old one died, and then wanted out again. And here he is resurrected and once more wanting to be King again... and then not. It's just silly.
But we were never really told that Gandalug wanted to be King, though. Were we?
In RL, Bob sent the Companions packing back to ID in Passage to Dawn in order to basically re-set the characters back to square one, as they had been in The Crystal Shard, as he finished out a contract with TSR and bid them adieu.
That left him with the practical matter of figuring out who would be King of Mithral Hall, then. Returned King Gandalug made as much sense as anybody. Generals Dagnabbit and Dagna were Adbar dwarves--not Battlehammers. General Banak had not even been created, yet. And Pwent was a pure soldier, and never a leader or politician.
I believe that Bruenor gave up the throne to Gandalug, and also later on to Banak, because Bruenor is not a stereotypical dwarf. Instead of stability, Bruenor craves change and adventure. For all his skill in smithing weapons and fortifying tunnels and building relationships, deep down he wants to get out, find some new stuff, and whack something!
Notice that Bruenor never settled down and married.
Bob never ceases to write characters against type. Even his greatest dwarven character is atypical for a dwarf.
Bruenor stepped aside to let Gandalug have the throne because leading a caravan to somewhere else sounded like more fun than staying put in the Hall. Heck, leading a quest to find Mithral Hall in the first place sounded like more fun than staying put in Icewind Dale. Bruenor is not content to stay put. He constantly wants something exciting and new.
It's true that a whole heckuva lot was made out of Bruenor demanding to take his place as the Eighth King of Mithral Hall. He pined over the Hall for nearly 2 centuries in ID. And he made a grand show with his royal arms and armor in the foyer to that Hall. And he had his bust sculpted right along those of his 7 predecessors.
But I don't think he ever really wanted to be King. I think he only wanted to become King. IOW, he only wanted a change from the status quo.
Nearly 2 centuries of slumming it in the butt end of the world are bound to do that to a guy.
I imagine that Gandalug accepted the throne again, himself, simply because Mithral Hall was still a lot more familiar to him than anywhere else in Faerūn. It's not that he particularly wanted to be King. (Recall that he had abdicated the throne himself, 2000 years before, as told in flashback in The Legacy.) It's just that after 2000 years in a magical limbo, Old Feller need some kind of stability and familiarity, at least in the short term.
And Bruenor was more than happy to give it to him--which in turn gave Bruenor an out to hit the road again.
When news came to ID of Gandalug's death, I don't know that Bruenor was really wanting to be King again. I think he just wanted another adventure. Go back and read The Thousand Orcs, and pay attention to what Bruenor really spends most of his time talking about. It's the thrill of getting out of the routine of being a chieftain in ID and hitting the road again--maybe even to find Gauntlgrym. Already, in those few years of stability in ID, Bruenor had planned his next great big gig. And it didn't involve sitting still on any throne.
Even then, duty called, and he found himself doing exactly that, yet again. But that didn't mean that he liked it, though.
Throw in the orc treaty, and he was downright ready to hop right on up out of that throne.
What you call "weird" and "silly" is definitely a characterization that goes against type, for a dwarf. But it's also entirely in character. Bruenor has been very consistent, throughout the books.
quote:
Regis went stale and had nothing to offer after he served his purpose through the Halfings Gem and just became this tag along who couldn't tie his shoes without needing to be saved.
You are forgetting that he served in the role of Steward in The Lone Drow when Bruenor was comatose. And while doing such, Regis was already expressing regret that he hadn't done more to be of help to his friends in the past, and that he was committed to changing that, in his own small way. He was stepping way out of his comfort zone, but it seemed like the right thing to do. And the other characters really noticed and appreciated it, too.
Don't forget how he "died", either: while selflessly trying to help Catti-brie. His use of the magical pendant helped soothe her nerves after being Spellscarred, but ultimately it sucked him into her illness, as well. But at least he tried.
Regis had grown self-conscious about being a user and freeloader, or a facilitator of his friends' troubles. I say again: he had grown.
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Cat went from innocent yet dwarf tough girl drawn into deep waters after being abducted by Entreri and into this super hero paladin chick who knew the soul of everyone she met. And it just kept repeating itself.
She pretty much knew everybody's soul from the very first book in which we met her, The Crystal Shard, though. Remember her taunts against a young, macho Wulfgar in ID? Cat has always been very perceptive, like that.
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RAS blew a chance to revitalize the Drizzt story with something new. And by bringing back his old crew he not only continued this trend of lacking creativity, but he completely killed any mortality his story may have had. If anyone was foolish enough to truly feel like his heroes can die and be gone they certainly are not going to fall for this any longer. Hell, I'm expecting Cadderly to be freed/ressurrected next.
My point is that RAS's tale of Drizzt and company will always hold a place in my heart because it is what drew me in from the start. The early works are still good. But RAS has blown far too many chances to show some creativity and do something NEW with Drizzt.
Those two paragraphs demonstrate to me that you are of the personality type that craves change. You're much like Bruenor, in that respect.
Irony of ironies, I'm actually not like Bruenor (oh, the horror!  )--at least in that respect.
But can you see how change isn't everything, for everybody? Circling the bases in one's own back yard feels good, to some folks. There's just not much need to take extended trips for a bunch of road games, for such people.
What's more, can you see how imposed change from up on high really isn't cool, to some?
Bob has said that he and Ed were basically biding their time after 4E was pushed through, waiting to see how long it would take for them to try to undo at least some of what was done. Ed said several times that Bob had the long game in mind, when people were observing that Drizzt was seemingly turning dark. I now think that was Ed code-speak.
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Catti-brie... well yeah, she sucks IMO. I stopped liking her around the Legacy.
The next book, Starless Night, when Wulfgar was gone and the way was paved clear for her to begin asserting some sort of feelings for Drizzt (again), was where I finally started to like her. Weird!
quote:
But I bet RAS has sold a ton of books.
Yep.
And that means that a ton of people have bought them. That resistance to change, or staleness, that you dislike so much is actually well received by a whole lot of people.
I'm not prone to make an appeal to popularity. It is a logical fallacy, after all.
But can you at least see that change for change's sake isn't everything to everyone? People can find comfort in stability and steadfastness. That doesn't make such readers pathetic, or such an author a sellout. It's just reality. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 08:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
Anyone notice in The Companions it was mentioned, by Drizzt or Cat, that Drizzt knew her since she was a young adult? That was an error, she was a young child when he met her in Sojourn.
Yeah, she was 11 years old when he first met her.
Some cultures might consider that to be a young adult, but none of these characters ever did. They all still saw her as a little girl.
Weird.
WOTC, you guys need me! I could catch these things for you!
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
so whats the score with bruenors grave then.what happened to his corpse.
That's a great question. I think it's particularly relevant, because I think I remember reading a line in which the characters observe the throne of Gauntlgrym again, and Bruenor's grave would've been nearby.
Although, my understanding of the concept of reincarnation is that the soul's new body really doesn't have much to do with the old body. They're the same soul, but totally different carnes, or fleshes. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 10:01:07
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| Thank you for your replies beast.I appreciate your well put together argument.my rant was an instant reaction with out much thought put into it.I still stand by my original point though.at the end of the day bruenor was a VERY OLD dwarf.he led a courageous life and had many epic battles and died a hero.to ressurect him now just seems bizarre.anyway why dosent ras bring back Zak instead.that's someone lots of people would be really excited to see. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 15:46:40
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Like some aspects of it, hated most of it.
They should have stayed dead and Drizzt should have continued on being his more curmudgeon demeanor with Artemis. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 16:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by BEASTThat's a great question. I think it's particularly relevant, because I think I remember reading a line in which the characters observe the throne of Gauntlgrym again, and Bruenor's grave would've been nearby.
Although, my understanding of the concept of reincarnation is that the soul's new body really doesn't have much to do with the old body. They're the same soul, but totally different carnes, or fleshes.
Bruenor did see his own grave, even went digging it out to retrieve his old axe/shield. Seeing his decayed old body hit him pretty hard. |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 17:01:44
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| Does anyone remember that old Simpsons episode where they made fun of the old star trek cast.captain kirks doing his captains log thing and he says 'so very tired' before a reference is made to Klingons.kinda reminds me of the companions return. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 18:30:32
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To those generally bothered by the return of the Companions of the Hall I will merely note this fact.
The story lines of those characters had NOT yet fully played out (although at least Bruenor got to do most of what he might have done in his lifetime) precisely because the Spellplague (and its attendant time-jump) hit them. The Cattie-Brie/Drizzt relationship was JUST at the point where they would be clear to adventure at each other's side. Regis might have opted to improve himself (as he does here), Cattie-Brie was already seeking training as a powerful wizard, Bruenor might have had to grapple with the orcs on his doorstep. All those lines were cut off half formed.
All this tale has done has restored (and enhanced as many have noted) the tale of the companions to where it was before the 4E 'Reign of Terror' hit. That's not exactly unfair for an author to do. For those fans of 4E it is particularly fair as WoTC (and Bob/Ed) respected the 4E canon instead of just retro wiping it out as if it never occurred. All in all a decent solution to the dilemma 4E wrought on RAS's characters. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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"The Companions"
