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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 21:02:36
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So for awhile now I've had this idea in my head that the Saurals came from Abeir (and also combining it with Athas, amongst other things). I figure, all the 'from some other world' loose ends we've had over the years in D&D, we could tie them all to the currently blank Abeir.
So I was hanging out over at The Piazza, and I learned something new - the Suarials that are in Malatra are not native - they are refugees from some sort of cataclysm from their homeworld. Now, this in-itself does not ruin my theory (they could have been in Malatra for centuries, since the last time Abeir and Toril bumped-into each other), but it sparked another line of reasoning...
Someone over there made mention of the fact that maybe Moander was behind this 'cataclysm' as well (I guess he just doesn't like Saurials), and then I realized we could do some Gray Richardson-syle ancient (Creator) lore and say this goes back to something the Sauroids did (and in my HB lore, I have it where the sauroid race was composed of the Saurials and their kin, the Sarrukh). So Moander probably has some sort of vendetta against them (as much as a blob of crap can have a cohesive thought).
And then it struck me - Moander could affect things on BOTH worlds. 
At least... if my theory they came from Abeir holds any water.
Anyhow, maybe other 'primordial' powers (like the elemental lords) were able to traverse the gulf between the two worlds - beings like the 'Seven Lost Gods'. Perhaps it was only deities that were barred from crossing between them.
Any thoughts?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2013 21:04:26
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 03:34:49
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| Before I plod ahead with some theories of my own -- some of which you've previously inspired, Markus -- I'd like to hear more about how you have tied the Saurials to Athas? |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 04:55:21
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| they both have the letter "a" and "s" in them, therefore they are clearly related. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 06:16:57
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I, personally, would need to see something more definitive tying saurials to Abeir. I've said more than once that I'm happy to play in gray areas, but from what I can see, nothing ties the saurials to Abeir any more readily than to any other world...
Also, Ao separated Abeir from Toril. The saurial homeworld connected to Tarterus, and from there to the Realms. They were able to scry on Elminster when he was on the saurial world, and he was able to cast a single spell to get himself out of there. I'll agree that it's not definitive, but it seems to me that if that was all that was done to separate Abeir and Toril, it was pretty weak and shouldn't have been that much of a barrier for anyone, divine or mortal, to go either way.
So I need something really solid to even connect saurials to Abeir, as opposed to just some nameless world. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Jul 2013 06:23:03 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 08:10:20
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| I wouldn't be surprised if WotC tied the saurials to Abeir as it would tie in quite well with the much of the theme of the place. I actually like the idea. As for the separation not being all that strong who knows, maybe Ao (in his near supreme power) demanded that the gods/ordials not cross worlds (and they complied). Mortals, including the saurials would not be so restricted and, given that few would be able to make the crossing and fewer still would want to do so...the problem sort of solves itself. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 14:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I wouldn't be surprised if WotC tied the saurials to Abeir as it would tie in quite well with the much of the theme of the place. I actually like the idea. As for the separation not being all that strong who knows, maybe Ao (in his near supreme power) demanded that the gods/ordials not cross worlds (and they complied). Mortals, including the saurials would not be so restricted and, given that few would be able to make the crossing and fewer still would want to do so...the problem sort of solves itself.
Not really. If it was that easy, there still should have been more traffic. And deities could have gotten a toehold in Abeir by sending in enough faithful. The Realms has a lot of interloper deities, and the deities also have a history of doing whatever they want. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 19:36:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So for awhile now I've had this idea in my head that the Saurals came from Abeir (and also combining it with Athas, amongst other things)
Yes. Athas is well known as a world of lush green jungles choke full of various big lizards. Where arcane spellcasters from Toril can operate without any problems and live in peace. Everything matches perfectly. 
quote:
Any thoughts?
I think that there are some differences between "theory" and "speculations".  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 19:46:21
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| Abier suffers from lack of detail and known interactions. An while we do have allot of interloper dieties, we also very clear on the type of setup they do. We don't have powerful beings often coming here with GOD level powers , they usually come here and sink into the local god system of being worship and getting power form it. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 21:24:16
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Wooly: We already know that Moander obtained a foothold (either from or to Abeir, I dunno which) so at least one of the gods 'did what they wanted' in that regard. Still, many of the gods may have considered it to be too much trouble to attempt to gain influence in Abeir, especially if they knew the consequences could be steep. Doing 'what they want' in Faerun does not necessarily mean they would do the same in Abeir as the consequences could have been far less severe on Toril (the planet being their 'given' playground out of the two worlds and all). I'm just saying that one does not have to equate to the other in that regard.
I agree that there would be more foot traffic between the two where mortals are concerned but think on this. Not all people have the ability to use magic. Of those that do not all of them can cast the world spanning magic that allows for such travel (and some that do would not choose to explore other worlds/planes). On top of that, whose to say there wasnt more traffic and it just didnt get put into the lore. My thoughts center on the fact that Abeir was basically ignored in the lore...and please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Abeir, as a separate world, was retconned in by WotC to explain their new editions to the setting. Until 4e, I had never read anything regarding a twinned planet (or whatever it is).
Of course, this is all conjecture on my part and I'm really just throwing out ideas and potential explanations. I just don't think the theory is that far 'out there' and, as I'm sure you would agree, WotC likely wouldn't have a problem doing something like this anyway. They have a history of 'doing what they want' after all. 
All of this assumes that WotC would even think to add this bit of lore to the Realms (Im certain they wont). I still like the idea though. Just seems to tie the saurials nicely to the Realms. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 21:39:03
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| This sort of reminds me of the mass effect 3 theory that the entire game was shepered under the control of the reapers and that the ending was false. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2013 : 04:41:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Wooly: We already know that Moander obtained a foothold (either from or to Abeir, I dunno which) so at least one of the gods 'did what they wanted' in that regard. Still, many of the gods may have considered it to be too much trouble to attempt to gain influence in Abeir, especially if they knew the consequences could be steep. Doing 'what they want' in Faerun does not necessarily mean they would do the same in Abeir as the consequences could have been far less severe on Toril (the planet being their 'given' playground out of the two worlds and all). I'm just saying that one does not have to equate to the other in that regard.
My point is that if Ao isolated the worlds to separate deities and primordials, then it shouldn't have been just a minor inconvenience to circumvent that.
Ao kicked all of the deities out of the heavens and stripped away their power, simultaneously. Waukeen had to give up her divinity to even leave the Prime.
And even mortal magic proved sufficient for keeping interloper gods out of the Realms.
With all that in mind, is it really likely that Ao went to such great lengths to separate deities and primordials, but then left such an obvious bypass? That's like building a fence to the water's edge and thinking that no one will wade in the water to get around it.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I agree that there would be more foot traffic between the two where mortals are concerned but think on this. Not all people have the ability to use magic. Of those that do not all of them can cast the world spanning magic that allows for such travel (and some that do would not choose to explore other worlds/planes). On top of that, whose to say there wasnt more traffic and it just didnt get put into the lore.
Oh, I agree that not everyone is powerful enough to hop to other worlds... But if Abeir was that easy to get to, there would have been a least a little traffic back and forth going back for millennia, and there should have been other references -- even if nothing more than rumors.
And if it was that easy, it would be a very small investment indeed to slip some followers over there to establish worship. It could readily be done with plausible deniability -- "but Ao, I never told my followers go thru that gate, they simply did so out of their own enthusiastic reverence!"
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
My thoughts center on the fact that Abeir was basically ignored in the lore...and please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Abeir, as a separate world, was retconned in by WotC to explain their new editions to the setting. Until 4e, I had never read anything regarding a twinned planet (or whatever it is).
Oh, it was very much a retcon.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Of course, this is all conjecture on my part and I'm really just throwing out ideas and potential explanations. I just don't think the theory is that far 'out there' and, as I'm sure you would agree, WotC likely wouldn't have a problem doing something like this anyway. They have a history of 'doing what they want' after all.
I'd rather not bring theoretical actions by WotC into this... My argument is that prior lore does not support the idea that saurials are from Abeir.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
All of this assumes that WotC would even think to add this bit of lore to the Realms (Im certain they wont). I still like the idea though. Just seems to tie the saurials nicely to the Realms.
I think a better connection would have been to have them from another world within Realmspace.
But either way, there really isn't anything definitive about the saurial homeworld. Prior Realmslore argues against it being Abeir, and there isn't anything to suggest a prior connection to the Realms.
If I wanted some prior connection to the setting, I'd have made the saurials be native to some other world, where dinosaur life flourished and mammals never really caught on. A group of planeswalking Sarrukh discovered the world, tinkered with some of the dinosaurs to create saurials, and then left. Perhaps they intended to return but never got the chance; perhaps they weren't satisfied with the results and simply wrote off the experiment. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2013 : 18:13:11
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So for awhile now I've had this idea in my head that the Saurals came from Abeir (and also combining it with Athas, amongst other things)
Yes. Athas is well known as a world of lush green jungles choke full of various big lizards. Where arcane spellcasters from Toril can operate without any problems and live in peace. Everything matches perfectly.
Ah, eye-rolling... how nice...
Can you direct me to the WORLD MAP of Athas that you are so obviously privy to? I am not familiar with 4e Athas (or 4e anything, for that matter), but I did have the earlier 2e stuff... and the entirety of the Dark Sun setting FIT snugly in the Raurin desert. I know, because I placed it there in one of my first FR campaigns (but in later campaigns realized how that didn't work, lore-wise, at all).
I suppose if an alien race landed in the middle of the Sahara they might think they had landed on a desert world, but that would not be very good reasoning.
The Abeir I envision (my own, HB version) has blazing hot, nearly impenetrable equatorial region. Dragons and certain other species can cross (with some difficulty), but for the most part, the two hemispheres are completely separate. This is because the world has zero axial tilt (unlike Toril, which has been bombarded by space debris so often its axis has shifted several times). It also means the arctic regions are always dark and frozen-over (and also nearly impenetrable by 'normal' species). Thus, the southern hemisphere is known as 'Athas' to those who live there (which really smooths-over all lore to the contrary, if there is any), and the northern hemisphere is known as Abeir, with several large jungle-covered continents (except for the northerly continent of Larakond, which bordered on the 'dark lands' at the pole, and is no longer even on Abeir).
I have taken what little we know about several VERY undetailed worlds (not settings, mind you, which are often tiny parts of those worlds), and mashed them together. I am not saying that is how it IS, I am say that is how I would use that lore, if I were to use it at all.
I have even thought about making Threnody a continent on that world. 
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
I think that there are some differences between "theory" and "speculations".
Yeah, the first part is a lot of speculation, but I was more wondering about the possibility that others - not deities - may have had some ability to move between worlds.
And if you'll recall, it was a very strange piece of magic that the saurial mage used. The spell required an exchange of 'like matter', which is very different then normal portal spells. It may have been able to bypass the barriers. As for Elminster, well... he's Elminster! If anyone could worm his way out of an impossible situaton it would have been him. 
I think the barrier would have stopped deities, and 'space stuff' from entering the atmosphere of Abeir, but primordials ('old gods'?) and perhaps some very special, VERY talented mortals with access to an artifact or some-such could, possibly, cross-over, especially if the two worlds had already begun to become coterminus (which is implied by the ToT and new Sundering lore, and also by comments made early in 4e by Brian James). For all we know, Elminster may have had to travel to someplace where the 'veil between the worlds' was weakest - he would definitely know about such things; part of his job is to repair such 'tears', when they occur. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2013 18:21:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2013 : 18:40:52
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Oh, and I think Maztica was once part of Abeir, and thats why in 4e it 'went home'.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Before I plod ahead with some theories of my own -- some of which you've previously inspired, Markus -- I'd like to hear more about how you have tied the Saurials to Athas?
I haven't, I've tied them to Abeir's northern hemisphere, which has very little contact with the south.
However, I suppose that the Pterrans and Pterrax could both be devolved forms of (saurial) Flyers.
The Dray could possibly be connected (I actually think 'normal' dragons are the result of some sort of magical experimentation, perhaps by planer giants, and were made from more primitive Drake stock). Maybe if dragons were a cross between Sauroid intellects and drakes, the dray would be another lost 'cousin' of the Sarrukh. I understand that doesn't follow the canon of Athas, but what if the Dray were 'throw-backs' to an earlier variant that was magically brought back? Most of that experimentation would have taken place on the proto-(unsundered)world, and be lost in history.
As for the Sarrukh themselves, I am thinking they are the epitome of (sauroid) raptor evolution, and that maybe the Braxit are the last of the T-Rex sauroids. Like the other creator races (most especially the Fey), they would have had a multitude of sub-races. The Sarrukh are just the only ones the folk of Faerūn are aware of (and there are very few of those knowledgeable folk, as well). The few remaining Sarrukh in Abeir/Athas could have evolved into the Ssuran (which would make a lot of sense).
We are taking about 35+k of years here - lots of time for species to go off in in different directions. My Abeir/Athas amalgamation is an example of a primal (prehistoric) world that suffered very little in the way of WSE's (like meteor strikes, ice ages, etc), and the original inhabitants weren't wiped-out and replaced, but rather, evolved into strange new forms. Its a 'might have been' version of Toril itself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2013 18:45:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2013 : 18:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So I need something really solid to even connect saurials to Abeir, as opposed to just some nameless world.
But thats the beauty of it - I am not really tying saurials to Abeir - I am tying them to Abeir-Toril, the original, unsundered world. Bits and pieces of 'dino' races exist on both now.
All I am saying is that the Sarrukh are just one variant of the Sauroid creator race, and the saurials are other examples. I am also not saying that this is how it IS, or how it should be - I am just saying its an interesting possibility. Of course I know that Athas was never meant to be on Abeir, or that the Saurials were supposed to be from there - all of that pre-existed the 4e concept of Toril having a 'sister world'. I just like to look back on past lore and find ways to connect things to the new lore (because for better or worse, we are stuck with it). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2013 18:50:03 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 00:32:17
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| So when dragonborn got dumped on us, did any powers go with it besides the dragon lords, did anyone hitch a ride? |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 13:12:52
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| I don't remember Malatra, weren't the saurials transported by the Ancients on spelljammers? That would explain why gods can't reach the world through the phlogiston. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 18:06:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So for awhile now I've had this idea in my head that the Saurals came from Abeir (and also combining it with Athas, amongst other things). I figure, all the 'from some other world' loose ends we've had over the years in D&D, we could tie them all to the currently blank Abeir.
So I was hanging out over at The Piazza, and I learned something new - the Suarials that are in Malatra are not native - they are refugees from some sort of cataclysm from their homeworld. Now, this in-itself does not ruin my theory (they could have been in Malatra for centuries, since the last time Abeir and Toril bumped-into each other), but it sparked another line of reasoning...
Someone over there made mention of the fact that maybe Moander was behind this 'cataclysm' as well (I guess he just doesn't like Saurials), and then I realized we could do some Gray Richardson-syle ancient (Creator) lore and say this goes back to something the Sauroids did (and in my HB lore, I have it where the sauroid race was composed of the Saurials and their kin, the Sarrukh). So Moander probably has some sort of vendetta against them (as much as a blob of crap can have a cohesive thought).
And then it struck me - Moander could affect things on BOTH worlds.
At least... if my theory they came from Abeir holds any water.
Anyhow, maybe other 'primordial' powers (like the elemental lords) were able to traverse the gulf between the two worlds - beings like the 'Seven Lost Gods'. Perhaps it was only deities that were barred from crossing between them.
Any thoughts?
That's an interesting concept, and given that the beings from Abeir have definitely not heard of gods... maybe its true. Another option though MAY simply be that Abeir is a world in which divine magic is not possible. Maybe because it has no connection to the outer planes? So, gods may go over there, but they can't inspire followers UNLESS they're local to their followers and can thereby grant divine power within a radius of their position on the world. That could prove interesting in the case of the Mulhorandi deities who were very used to being amongst their worshippers.
Just wondering, was Moander ever officially branded a Primordial (I like this concept btw). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 18:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh, and I think Maztica was once part of Abeir, and thats why in 4e it 'went home'.
agreeing here. I'd like to see it come back, but only for the purposes of providing a new area that can see significant and interesting new builds on the lore we previously knew. I don't see many people complaining if we significantly change this area. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Theory piled on top of a theory
