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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 15:01:07
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This topic has been beaten to death, but from previous discussions here, this is how it goes:
Mystra is FOR the furthering of magic, in ALL its forms (even ones that wind-up detrimental to her). Thats 'her thing'. She wants Mages to share their knowledge, to spread magic further, and also achieve 'new heights'. This isn't necessarily an altruistic goal - it furthers her portfolio (and thus her power).
She is NOT, by nature of her portfolio, a 'good' deity. Her 'leanings' in that regard come from the human-half of her personality (and she's had at least three that we are aware of). She tries not to let her personal feelings interfere with the furthering of magic (and her portfolio). Thus, Manshoon is one of her 'favorites'... even if she hates his guts personally.
What she does not tolerate is Mages killing other (up-and-coming) Mages, and hoarding knowledge for themselves - that path normally leads to 'lost lore', which detracts from her portfolio. So although she tries not to be 'good or evil', a problem arises in that its usually evil mages killing wizards and hoarding magic, and its usually 'goodly' mages who open magic schools and try to spread magic further. Thus, she supports 'good' over 'evil' as a by-product of what she is really doing - furthering her own goals (magic).
This is why she will ignore most of what goes on in Thay, and even ordered the Simbul to stop hunting down Red Wizards (unless provoked). So long as the majority of Red Wizards take on apprentices and do magical research (and spread magic further), she does not want them harmed... despite any moral convictions she may have otherwise.
So its not really a 'good vs evil' thing, but rather, it just appears that way a lot of the time because of the nature of mages themselves.
As to whether we should have one - I prefer a more aloof magical deity, but whatever, I'll accept whatever they give us.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jun 2013 15:04:33 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 19:26:00
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First of all it fits the setting! She is part of the whole world. So for me she kind of needs to be there.
Secondly any spell caster would do well in paying homage to her. She will help, guide and comfort those who would seek her guidance. Give items, power and secrets to the most trusted of hers with the only limitations of not destroying magic or anyone who researches magic for magic itself. She is like the opposite of the Catholic Church during the middle-ages who would discourage science... which magic sort of is.
Thirdly A mage can do magic without her, but magic will be safe with her. It will be personal and filled with love. Love from the mother of mysteries. Whenever a mage uses magic he or she touches her, and she touches the spell caster. And that is true magic.
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 23 Jun 2013 19:27:41 |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 06:07:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Magic is Mystra, and vice versa.
How so? The weave was just an layer between magic and mortals that allowed mortals to tap into the magic without burning their fingers.
Technically Mystra is nothing but a parasite that wormed it's way between mortals and magic. She is neither magic nor the source of magic, just the gatekeeper that governs access to magic because she just set herself up in this role and mortals are powerless to deny her
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Which is lunacy, because if Mystra were ever truly gone, they would have no power at all (because Mystra is magic).
She's not. She's the weave. But the weave is not magic or the source of magic. The sourcebooks clearly say that the weave is merely a safeguard between the magic and the world.
Wizards can cast just fine when they go where the weave doesn't exist, e.g. the planes or other worlds
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Regarding Mystra being the Weave.
FRCS pg 247: "Essentially, Mystra is the Weave."
This would seem to make your point for you. Except it doesn't.
The word "essentially" would be unnecessary if Mystra was the Weave. They wouldn't waste the 12 characters; it would just say Mystra is the Weave. That might seem like splitting hairs, but Mystra is consistently described as tending/maintaining the Weave rather than being the Weave.
In Bury Elminster Deep, p. 7, Mystra says, " am Mystra, I am magic.
In [i]Elminster Enraged, p. 3, Elminster thinks to himself, "Aye, the shattering of the Weave - of Mystra, who was the Weave - had wrought great change in the Art."
So it would appear that both of you are right and both of you are wrong.
Specifically in reply to xaeyruudh- I am me and tend and maintain myself all the time. I can only imagine you do too. :) |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 04 Jul 2013 16:34:45 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 07:19:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
Specifically in reply to xaeyruudh- I am me and tend and maintain myself all the time. I can only imagine you do too. :)
This calls for a witty observation regarding the (stereotypical) male habit of prioritizing video games (and D&D of course) above self-maintenance. Alas, I am not witty and can't think of a good line. And fortunately, I am an enlightened specimen who bathes daily and moreover is above such base and earthy humor, particularly in polite company. In any case I suppose you could observe that Mystra is not male (surely Elminster would have noticed) and would therefore be better behaved. And I would riposte thus: Mystra just hasn't played any great video games.
Nice reference finds. Upon consideration after my earlier posts, I shy away from equating magic and the Weave. Your sweater might be cashmere, but it's not the case that all cashmere is in your sweater or that sweaters can't be made of other material. Not a great example, but my point is that there has to be more to magic than the Weave, and there must be more to the Weave than just magic, too.
I think the authors of most/all of the sources we're looking at are relying on metaphor (or is it simile?) and linguistic convenience. I would feel most comfortable if magic, the Weave, and Mystra were each separate entities, so that each of them can persist without the others.
This enables Mystra to hear prayers which are uttered in the middle of a magic-dead zone, and the Weave to still exist in that space but be unresponsive to casters due to lacking "juice."
It also enables magic to still exist in the Realms even if the ludicrous myth of Mystra's death and the Weave's dissolution were true.
Of the three, the Weave must be the most vulnerable and magic the most persistent. Mystra can reincarnate herself, or be restored, as long as magic exists in the world.
Just my take on it, based on what seems to need to be true.
And thanks for putting a smile on my face, Emma. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 04 Jul 2013 07:20:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 14:53:32
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Borrowing from RW philosophy, we know that a sentient being (and maybe non-sentients as well) are composed of three major 'selfs' - Body, Mind, and Soul. This translates perfectly in D&D, because upon death we have the mind getting stored in the Astral (IIRC), the soul going on to whatever afterlife it has earned, and the body crumbling (except in the case of undead with physical forms). The body is obviously our anchor to the Prime Material - it is an organic phylactory.
Moving on... Mystra - the one we are most familiar with - is the 'mind', and The Weave is the body. That leaves the Soul... I guess I just figured-out why Mystryl/Mystra needs a human component in each incarnation.
Anyhow, we could say that I - Mark Taylor - am also these three things. All three could said to be 'Mark'. However, that doesn't preclude the notion that all three are also separate things, each with its on 'job' to do to create one whole, living being. Mystra the mind and Mystra the body (The Weave) are indeed one and the same, and yet separate components of the greater whole. What happens when the mind fails? The body enters a 'vegetative state', and without outside assistance, will usually start to deteriorate (thus The Weave 'runs amok').
This is how Mirtek & xaeyruudh can both be right.
One last thing - Lurue is Magic itself - the power that lies beyond The Weave. IF Mystra's Weave is like an electrical grid, then Lurue is the electricity. She is a primal power. I figure I'd provide one last analogy to sort out that last bit of magical 'what's what'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jul 2013 14:55:24 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 15:20:12
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| The realms may not actually need Mystra but the fans like her so she is returned to the setting. |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 16:34:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Borrowing from RW philosophy, we know that a sentient being (and maybe non-sentients as well) are composed of three major 'selfs' - Body, Mind, and Soul. This translates perfectly in D&D, because upon death we have the mind getting stored in the Astral (IIRC), the soul going on to whatever afterlife it has earned, and the body crumbling (except in the case of undead with physical forms). The body is obviously our anchor to the Prime Material - it is an organic phylactory.
Moving on... Mystra - the one we are most familiar with - is the 'mind', and The Weave is the body. That leaves the Soul... I guess I just figured-out why Mystryl/Mystra needs a human component in each incarnation.
Anyhow, we could say that I - Mark Taylor - am also these three things. All three could said to be 'Mark'. However, that doesn't preclude the notion that all three are also separate things, each with its on 'job' to do to create one whole, living being. Mystra the mind and Mystra the body (The Weave) are indeed one and the same, and yet separate components of the greater whole. What happens when the mind fails? The body enters a 'vegetative state', and without outside assistance, will usually start to deteriorate (thus The Weave 'runs amok').
This is how Mirtek & xaeyruudh can both be right.
Yes, and when I said they were both wrong as well, I meant that they were wrong in insisting that their opposing views weren't true. One argued that Mystra isn't magic and one argued that Mystra isn't the Weave.
As a general point, not in response to Markustay... It's important not to fall into the logical trap of saying, well, if Mystra = the Weave and Mystra = Magic, the Weave = Magic. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 16:48:13
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
And thanks for putting a smile on my face, Emma.
Success! :) |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Why would we even want a god of magic now..
