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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 16:47:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
interesting... though I still say Jhaamdath had it coming whether or not they all deserved it, we'll never know, nor we'll never know what would have happened if Jhaamdath was able to continue being a war machine.... you know Im going to go ask ED that...
Whether or not you think the Jhaamdath "had it coming" or not... it's still genocide.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
all is fair in love and war and all
All is actually not fair in love and war. The genocides most people (in our world) think of first - Holocaust, Armenian genocide, and Rwandan genocide ALL occurred in the context of war (WWII, WWI, Rwandan civil war). I think there are few people that would argue that any of those situations were "fair."
That was something I was actually quite impressed with in the lore - almost all of the genocides that I could find happened in some sort of relation to larger conflicts (usually wars). This is how it has almost always happened historically. Without the concept of "us and them," the threat of danger to your own society/culture (real or perceived), and violence on a mass scale, genocides just don't happen (generally). |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 14 Jun 2013 16:47:43 |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 17:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
First of, who are we speaking of here. Elves on as a racial whole are devided along the major cultures of sun elves, drow, moon elves and sylvan elves. Of the 'genocides', all of them were done by sun elves and drow.
I disagree. Unless I'm mistaken, the Dracorage Mythal was not created only by sun elves. The Descent of the Drow was perpetrated by Corellon and all of his priests and high mages. There are three examples of sea elves in my list. The destruction of Jhaamdath was perpetrated by the elves of Nikerymath (Nikerymath was founded by refugees from Syorpiir, which was founded by green elves, right?). While the largest number of Eldreth Veluuthra are sun elves, wild elves and moon elves are numerous.
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"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 18:53:30
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I was generalising there (as I totally ignored sea elves, because I dont know alot about them), but I still stand by that the order for most of the genocides come from both racist and sun elven sentiments.
Certain elven houses openly have racist sentiments, even in the current political climate of tolerance (largely thanks to Queen Amluriel allied houses who oppose racist sentiments), but most moon elven houses are quite appalled of the Eldreth Veluuthra's existence (one of the reasons its a clandestine organisation).
Upon looking into the Jhaamdath-Nikerymath conflict, the high magic ritual was again invoked by a quartet of powerful Elven High Mages. It's not clear, but they seem to have acted indepently from the rulers at the time, raising the tidal wave in responce to the slaughtering of elven resistance. What is clear is that elves have have had little to no control over elven archmages tendency to let their arcane or divine experiments become terrible solutions for conflicts. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 18:53:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Emma Drake -
That's fantastic. I love what you've done, and I'd be interested to hear what you think about the elves now as a result of the research you've done so far. Do they seem more prone to genocide and mass murder than humans might be, or do they seem pretty on par?
I hesitate to draw broad conclusions. While I was skimming all entries in TGHotR, I really only bothered to fully read and carefully consider the entries dealing with elves. So any conclusion I draw would be somewhat skewed.
That said, a few things struck me while looking at atrocities committed by elves.
First, elves (other than drow) have access to High Magic, which can be extraordinarily destructive in ways that few human civilizations have had access to. There are certainly examples of highly magical and powerful human realms that used their power to subvert and destroy other peoples (Netheril, for example). Nearly half of the examples of genocide and over a third of the mass murder/criminal stupidity events I found used High Magic.
Second, few of those acts were committed, as some people have tried to argue on this thread, as a knee-jerk reaction. The only instances that seem to be swift and sudden are the destruction of Ched Nassad and the Darkwoods Massacre, and even those two events were grounded in centuries of simmering dissent and conflict.
Certainly to some of the victims, particularly the humans, it may have looked this way. One day the people of Jhaamdath were blissfully unaware that they had angered the elves (or perhaps thinking their parents or grandparents had but that the conflict was over) and the next - BAM, they ceased to exist. But when one takes a step back and looks at the evolution of the Jhaamdath empire/realm, you see that they had in reality been in conflict with the elves for some time. To the elves, who have long lives, it was a consistent, escalating conflict to which the humans responded only with further depredation of their territories. This difference of perspective is quite significant in looking at how humans and elves might approach genocide. For example, I just finished readying Cormyr and at one point in one of the flashback chapters, the elven king says to one of the kings of Cormyr that they had, in their few lifetimes in the area, wreaked more havoc and destruction on the forest, than the elves had seen in thousands of years. The human then had a moment of clarity wherein he realized that if the humans of the area were destroyed, it would only be a blink in the life of an elf. And for an elf who lives many hundreds of years, for that much destruction to occur in only 50-100-200 years, they can see it unrolling further into the future, multiplying at an exponential rate. It gives them a very ... I hesitate to say it, but it's what I'm thinking... apocalyptic view of the impact of these shorter lived races on their lands, their lives, etc. What is a civilization of 10,000 people that has only been around for a few hundred compared to the life of the entire forest, your people, and the world itself? It's dark, it's painful... but is it necessary, they might ask themselves? (This is, by the way, the way many Nazis also viewed the Holocaust.)
Third, most of these examples of genocide, indeed all of them except in the case of the sea elves and the Dracorage Mythal, are perpetrated against other groups of elves or humans. It has me wondering why that is. Elves certainly had other enemies - orcs in particular. There is even a religious background to the conflict with orcs. Yet those instances of fighting orcs are always spun as wars in which both sides experienced casualties (and perhaps even atrocities) but no one side completely destroyed the other. Orcs and other goblinoids certainly reproduce rapidly and spread into territories as quickly or moreso than humans. Is this because orcs have only been portrayed as warring bands, with a complete absence of focus on innocents in their societies? If there are no non-combatants, and only wars... Is this because the stories are more compelling (and thus written more frequently) when the victims with whom we identify more closely are the ones affected? Is this because you can only truly hate and seek to destroy or subsume those things that are also similar? Or is it because when we read passages about masses of orcs being killed in battle we automatically think "war" while we think "massacre" when it's a more sympathetic race? |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 14 Jun 2013 19:27:35 |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 19:23:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I was generalising there (as I totally ignored sea elves, because I dont know alot about them), but I still stand by that the order for most of the genocides come from both racist and sun elven sentiments.
Certain elven houses openly have racist sentiments, even in the current political climate of tolerance (largely thanks to Queen Amluriel allied houses who oppose racist sentiments), but most moon elven houses are quite appalled of the Eldreth Veluuthra's existence (one of the reasons its a clandestine organisation).
Upon looking into the Jhaamdath-Nikerymath conflict, the high magic ritual was again invoked by a quartet of powerful Elven High Mages. It's not clear, but they seem to have acted indepently from the rulers at the time, raising the tidal wave in responce to the slaughtering of elven resistance. What is clear is that elves have have had little to no control over elven archmages tendency to let their arcane or divine experiments become terrible solutions for conflicts.
I, personally, as a player, dislike elves. While some of them are kind and warm and cosmopolitain, I find that as a people they are cold, distant, and xenophobic (read: racist). So when you say that elven genocides come from racist sentiments but narrow that down to sun elves and drow, I have to disagree. Both because the examples I list say otherwise and because there are so many more subgroups of elves that can be quite racist.
I was reading some old "Ask Elaine Cunningham" scrolls this week and she says, for example, that Arilyn Moonblade, a half-elf who is neutrally good aligned, would not have been ok with Danilo Thann helping Liriel Baenre (in the Starlight and Shadows trilogy), even knowing that Liriel was not evil and attempting to escape the grasp of Lolth. I'm paraphrasing, but she said something along the lines of, "Arilyn is too much of an elf to support interacting with a drow, good or not."
Being appalled at the existence of Eldreth Veluuthra is not the same as thinking elves aren't better than everyone else. There's a large divide between the two ideas and I think that's where most elves fall - between the two extremes.
I think you're onto something with this focus on the High Magic. I noted in another reply that it was a trend in almost all of the events I listed. You say that High Magic is usually conducted by a small elite while no one else knows about it. Do you have books where that is described? I haven't read that, though I don't doubt that it may be the case. I'd like to read more about it now that my interest is piqued.
I will say, however, that even in cases of a small elite group acting out with overwhelming force against enemies (both military and civilian), if the general population has real issue with what they did, there are repercussions. Was there protest? Were these people removed from positions of power? Was there a backlash? If not, I have to wonder if the elves, even while shaking their heads in shame, weren't also thinking... "It's dark, it's painful... but was it necessary?"
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"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 14 Jun 2013 19:29:30 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 21:07:41
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Of coarse elves would see themselves as better or more important than other races, partly because of their long life experiences gives them inflated sense of selfworth and their extended high magic cultures on multiple worlds gives them obvious examples of advanced cultural achievements. Their arrogance is no hubris, as elves can prove their superiority with actual use of elven artifacts (mythals) or advanced magic use (high magic). Many elven archmages in Faeruns history have felt their hands were forced, with the end result of the archmages showing the very limits of what their (supposed) magic superiority can do.
In the case of the Killing Storms, the offending high mages were not even caught (Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves). The investigation took for many years only to result in suspicion that the offending archmages were Aryvandaaran. The ruling house of the time was Siluvanede, and it's highly likely the (then probably demonic) Vyshanti nobles housed the archmages that performed the Killing Storms. The Dlardrageths (a Siluvanedan house with Vyshanti Empire-like motivations) were imprisoned for many of their crimes only when Arcorar was founded many years later (the Last Mythal Book I,Forsaken House).
The events of the the Fall of Jhaamdath are mostly found in the GHotR (page 25). I honestly don't know how elven historians look back on this one. I guess it's elven histories most damning case of genocide. I don't expect them glorifying the event in any case, but I agree that here a certain amount of 'it was neccesary' sentiments are held.
I would say that most elves are thaught to look at the Crown Wars as an unnecesary turn of events, but most houses still glorify the high arts (even those of war) of that time period. The Dark Descent is usually seen as a rash decision with unforseen consequences while the Dark Disaster (the name says it all) is seen as an epic crime.
[Correction on Dlardrageth lore and some additions on Jhaamdath] |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 14 Jun 2013 21:22:08 |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 22:03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
In the case of the Killing Storms, the offending high mages were not even caught (Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves). The investigation took for many years only to result in suspicion that the offending archmages were Aryvandaaran. The ruling house of the time was Siluvanede, and it's highly likely the (then probably demonic) Vyshanti nobles housed the archmages that performed the Killing Storms. The Dlardrageths (a Siluvanedan house with Vyshanti Empire-like motivations) were imprisoned for many of their crimes only when Arcorar was founded many years later (the Last Mythal Book I,Forsaken House).
Thanks! I'll add those to my (admittedly quite long) reading list. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 08:39:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
interesting... though I still say Jhaamdath had it coming whether or not they all deserved it, we'll never know, nor we'll never know what would have happened if Jhaamdath was able to continue being a war machine.... you know Im going to go ask ED that...
Whether or not you think the Jhaamdath "had it coming" or not... it's still genocide.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
all is fair in love and war and all
All is actually not fair in love and war. The genocides most people (in our world) think of first - Holocaust, Armenian genocide, and Rwandan genocide ALL occurred in the context of war (WWII, WWI, Rwandan civil war). I think there are few people that would argue that any of those situations were "fair."
That was something I was actually quite impressed with in the lore - almost all of the genocides that I could find happened in some sort of relation to larger conflicts (usually wars). This is how it has almost always happened historically. Without the concept of "us and them," the threat of danger to your own society/culture (real or perceived), and violence on a mass scale, genocides just don't happen (generally).
yes but as I said Jhaamdath ahd it coming. That said there is also no magic in RL like there is in the realms.
If you could foretell the future and it became to the point its either you or them, which would you choose, yours or their country( or your home or theirs). Mind you there is no right answer to this, but at an unfortunate problem is that whichever you choose, the consequences you must also accept.
I would assume that the elves either knowingly or not took the consequences after all the undead of Jhaamdath were said to kill elves when they found them.
as for the holocaust reference, that was evil incarnate true and hitler was evil incarnate what he did and is ultimately responsible for what he had done, Germany paid for and it took 50 years to rebuild itself from that war.
the rowanda civil war...... well I think iirc correctly well that one also was coming ofr a long time and I think it too was done on oppression by one of the two cultures there and one got fed up with it and well..... thats iirc and may not be the case.....
come to think of it, did you know that Japan's war crimes in ww2 made germany's crimes look tame???? and look at what they got for it. Two hellish explosions that cost them dearly and still their neighbors harbor grudges and ill feelings toward them.
kind of what the Crown wars, the crimes the illthiri committed made the aryvaandar's crimes look tame in comparison.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 16 Jun 2013 08:42:26 |
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carbos
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 09:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragoninteresting... though I still say Jhaamdath had it coming
Indeed, after all elves need their lebensraum.
Tell me, if someone seeing all atrocities commitied by elves decided to sink Evermeet, or cast rain of fire above Evereska or drop a mountain on Myth Drannor, would you also say that "they had it comming"?
quote:
Originally posted by BladewindTheir arrogance is no hubris, as elves can prove their superiority with actual use of elven artifacts (mythals) or advanced magic use (high magic).
Elves aren't only ones with powerful magic or artifacts, through history they had many contemporaries that could rival or beat them. Most of them are dead true, but then again most of elven empires are dead as well. |
Edited by - carbos on 16 Jun 2013 09:46:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 14:29:04
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When two societies/species are in contention (for their very survival), why does anyone "have it coming"? 
The Elves are supposed to be 'deep thinkers', but apparently, when it comes to themselves, they give very little thought to anyone else. It goes way beyond simple racism - they truly feel other sentient beings are 'less then animals' (because they have more respect for mere animals). Their negotiation skills (when it comes to other races) are abysmal - they usually just give an ultimatum like "stop doing such-and-such or die" - what the hell kind of relationship is that? A parent ordering a child to stop? When it comes to Elves, its exterminate or be exterminated, end of story.
Drow are the only Elves you can trust - you KNOW what they intend to do. They are quite honest about wanting to gut or enslave you. Its the other ones that should all be 'shoot on sight', IMO. They are all evil, but at least Drow own-up to it. Their sense of entitlement is legendary. Elves need to be hunted until extinction.
As for destroying Evermeet or Cormanthor... where do I sign-up?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jun 2013 14:32:17 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 15:53:51
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Elves are vermin that need to be hunted down... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 16 Jun 2013 15:54:17 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 16:21:41
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| you do that and I'll stay here watching as you get cut down..... by the lovely nymphs over there standing there 500 miles away from the gates of everska. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 16:24:36
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oh and btw still a war machine that needed to be stop and would have had it coming anyway imo
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
. . . And here's Ed's next reply, this time to sf dragon, re. this: "I have a hypothetical question for Ed. If he had chose to do it instead, how would he had Jhaamdath been if it was to continue as a war machine instead of having it wiped out into undeath?"
Ed replies:
Ah, hypotheticals. If I had three or four lifetimes to spare, I could REALLY dig into these. ;
I have always thought that if Jhaamdath had avoided the fate that befell it, that culture would have made the Napoleonic/Hitlerian mistake of expanding too fast by violent means, taking on too many foes at once, ending up beset on too many fronts at once - - and collapsing. I have in the past dropped some very subtle hints in this regard, by noting who their inevitable foes would be, if they expanded far enough (and as a game designer, I always want a setting to have a variety of opposed powers, purely because it makes for more interesting and varied adventure opportunities).
So saith Ed. Who's on a roll this morning (well, it's still morning here as I type this), and has yet another reply up his sleeve...
love,
THO
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 16 Jun 2013 16:26:05 |
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carbos
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 16:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
oh and btw still a war machine that needed to be stop and would have had it coming anyway imo
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
. . . And here's Ed's next reply, this time to sf dragon, re. this: "I have a hypothetical question for Ed. If he had chose to do it instead, how would he had Jhaamdath been if it was to continue as a war machine instead of having it wiped out into undeath?"
Ed replies:
Ah, hypotheticals. If I had three or four lifetimes to spare, I could REALLY dig into these. ;
I have always thought that if Jhaamdath had avoided the fate that befell it, that culture would have made the Napoleonic/Hitlerian mistake of expanding too fast by violent means, taking on too many foes at once, ending up beset on too many fronts at once - - and collapsing. I have in the past dropped some very subtle hints in this regard, by noting who their inevitable foes would be, if they expanded far enough (and as a game designer, I always want a setting to have a variety of opposed powers, purely because it makes for more interesting and varied adventure opportunities).
So saith Ed. Who's on a roll this morning (well, it's still morning here as I type this), and has yet another reply up his sleeve...
love,
THO
Would those other enemies exterminated them to the last person? You know there have been many wars in FR and as far as I'm aware majority of them didn't end with total extermination of one or both sides. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 21:38:45
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that depends, most of those enemies would have been wiped out in such a way that they would not pose a threat again for the next hundred plus years and if those enemies were foul enough that it would require all of its neighbors combined to stop, then yes I think it would down to the last man capable of picking up a weapon or casting a spell and in some cases depending on the neighbor wiped out completely.
The elves would wipe any orc they came across and the same goes for an orc against elf.
the dwarves don't like giants, orcs, goblins
hobgoblins despise elves out right.
elves don't like anyone intruding on their territory after being told not to, and is always going to be the only warning they get depending on the intrusion.....( In Jhaamdath's case, not wanting to add supplies to a war machine)
so yes and no.
never will know all of jhaamdath's war crimes in their military expansion campaign either.....
( that also said, we could go and list atrocities and war crimes committed by human empires too)
netheril mistreatment and enslavement of the gnomes
likely to have mistreatment of low netheril( really lodross was the tongue of high netheril, I'm important you're not)
the near eradication of the orc tribes( yeah yeah would have been a problem if they didnt)
hehehe I'd have to go look for more myself....
Deep netheril
if the compairson of what high netheril was doing, than deep netheril was likely not getting along with their neighbors either......
which could say taht they likely did something from damaging the underwater environment to murder of sea elves you get the point( sadly there never was much on deep netheril..... if there is a module on it point me to it)
sea elves and the sa( never could spell it) never liked each other anyway and yes would exterminate the other to the last
you got me on the one with the merfolk......
shamblers love elves and would wipe them out completely too and then eat them... though they'd do that to any humanoid they catch too
and you want to know who are the most successful at the most atrocious crimes in faerun?? The gnomes they fooled and used everybody...
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 16 Jun 2013 21:42:01 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2013 : 22:06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The elves need to learn from necromancers: everything has its uses, even the remains of the smallest insect. Why commit genocide when you can put to use that certain race you so vehemently discriminate?
Spare parts? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2013 : 05:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I deleted my original post to this topic, because when I posted, I hadn't read others yet. Now I've read most of them.
I like elves. They are my favorite race, and as a whole, I like them better than humans. But I also know the elves have faults, just like everyone else. Some of the elves are evil, or at least have done evil things. There have been elven characters I do not like, and the Crown Wars I think is a dark stain in their history. There were several elves in Elminster in Myth Drannor I did not like. But, as some have said, we cannot judge an entire race on the actions of some, or events from the past.
I wouldn't call them a bloodthirsty race who are constantly searching for something to kill.
Ah, but would you say they are no better or worse than humans? 
Humans are not a bloodthirsty race who are constantly searching for something to kill, either. There are good aligned humans, there are evil aligned humans, and most humans have a tendency to fall somewhere in the middle - neutral / unaligned. Some humans engage in unspeakable atrocities, and other humans engage in unimaginable altruism. It runs the entire spectrum.
I argue that elves are fundamentally no different, and that there is nothing innate in their nature that leads them to be good aligned in the same way a celestial is good aligned. It is something that each elf must achieve over time through their actions. In other words - no pure blooded elf is born innately good.
As a result, simply assuming that elves are naturally Chaotic Good makes no sense.
Mmm, I can see your point. There are evil elves and evil humans, and there are good humans and good elves.
@TBeholder: I agree that the Crown Wars was a, um, bad event in elven history, to put it mildly, and it was indeed whole houses--cities even--of elves that launched themselves against each other. But that shouldn't be a reflection of the entire elven race.
I'll admit I was surprised by the actions of the elves in Myth Drannor. I had not expected the nobles to be quite that nasty, because in other FR books I had read concerning elves, they did not act that way, though Evermeet had it's share of less than complimentary elves. But in Making of a Mage, the elves were far kinder in nature and to Elminster. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2013 : 12:14:03
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So I've been following this thread since it was started and I'm still not sure what @carbos is looking for. Like are you just looking for help coming up with ideas for your games or are you looking for a discussion on what crimes the elves may or may not committed?
If it is the first, then you can use any of the ideas @Emma drake gave you or take any of the wars the elves have been in and slightly alter them to the way you want. While if it is a discussion on the elves it doesn't look like one, It seems more of one showing how much one hates elves than an actual discussion on them. I would like to note that most of the information used so far on all the genocide the elves perpetrated seems to be a bit construed or faulty. One can argue round and round on many aspects of what is considered bad by nations that fight with one another as we don't have much information to make those judgement calls. Like what are the Laws of war in faerun. seeing that faerun is based in a middle age society can we apply our modern Laws of war to faerun. We also have little information on the incidents that @emma drake listed to make a definite case of whether it was crimes against others or not.
Ok, so i had more to say but I figured I would leave it as is and maybe post more later. |
Edited by - kysus on 18 Jun 2013 12:23:40 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2013 : 12:41:19
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[...] the Crown Wars was a, um, bad event in elven history, to put it mildly, and it was indeed whole houses--cities even--of elves that launched themselves against each other. But that shouldn't be a reflection of the entire elven race.[...]
It wasn't about ''houses'' or ''cities'', it was a Farun-wide war which involved all the major elven kingdoms (which covered almost the entire continent at the time). And it started cause Aryvandaar went like 'lulz, we wanna rule everything' (even tho undeniable tensions among Ilythiir and the other empires were already there when the flame was lit). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2013 : 18:24:21
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quote:
Originally posted by kysus
So I've been following this thread since it was started and I'm still not sure what @carbos is looking for. Like are you just looking for help coming up with ideas for your games or are you looking for a discussion on what crimes the elves may or may not committed?
I think @carbos found what he or she was looking for. Now it's just a discussion by others as well.
quote:
Originally posted by kysus
I would like to note that most of the information used so far on all the genocide the elves perpetrated seems to be a bit construed or faulty. One can argue round and round on many aspects of what is considered bad by nations that fight with one another as we don't have much information to make those judgement calls. Like what are the Laws of war in faerun. seeing that faerun is based in a middle age society can we apply our modern Laws of war to faerun. We also have little information on the incidents that @emma drake listed to make a definite case of whether it was crimes against others or not.
Ok, so i had more to say but I figured I would leave it as is and maybe post more later.
Please explain how the evidence is construed or faulty. We also have a lot of evidence about many of those events. Jhaamdath, the Dracorage Mythal, the Dark Disaster, the Descent of the Drow... among others.
Any time you take a modern, Earth concept ("genocide") and apply it to a pre-modern, fantasy world ("faerūn"), you're going to have problems. Even applying the term genocide to events in Earth history that came before the modern era can be problematic. The main reason is that "genocide" carries with it an implied moral judgement. And if we speak of a time where "total war" was the norm, is it appropriate to take a word (and its implied judgement) from an era where total war is not the norm?
I would argue first that the comparison of Faerūn to the Middle Ages is somewhat overly simplistic. There are very important distinctions that affect how "total war" is interpreted. Faerūn is an agrarian society, but literacy is much more common and serfdom is not the primary system for the lord-vassal relationship (though there are areas where that is not the case). There is no magic on Earth - they don't even have guns. There are different races on Faerūn, some of which are intrinsically evil. And, perhaps the most important difference, the existence and prevalence of nation-states (empires, etc) in the Realms makes a HUGE difference in how war is fought. So, yes, most people work the land and wouldn't know a platinum piece if it fell out of the sky, but just as using "genocide" can be anachronistic, so can generalizing the structure of faerūnian society (and how they fight wars) based on medieval Earth models.
I feel, based on the research I've done, that there is a distinct difference in the way faerūnians view what we on earth might call "cultural genocide" and "total genocide."
Genocide doesn't actually require the death of everyone in a culture/race/etc. To clarify, the Nazis desired "total genocide" - the death of all Jews, wherever they were found, to the absolute exclusion of cultural integration/absorption into the majority culture/race. In the Armenian example, however, while many people were murdered, there was also a small movement to absorb some of the victims (primarily women and children) into the majority culture. The aim was to kill the sub-culture, to root it out of the majority society, but if you forcibly convert some of those people, the same end is reached as if you killed them.
It appears to me that when the former type (total genocide) of crime (yes, I said crime) is committed on Faerūn (by elves or non-elves), people generally view it as a mistake, as a crime against conscience, an atrocity, shameful. (At least when committed against creatures that aren't viewed as inherently evil. When orcs and beholders or whathaveyou are killed en masse, few seem to care much.) I point to the reaction to the Dark Disaster, the investigation following the destruction of Jhaamdath, and the conference (660 DR) between merfolk, shalarins, and Dukars following the Ninth Serōs War where they drafted the Laws of Battle in an attempt to avoid further genocidal slaughter as but three examples of this. "Genocidal slaughter" is the exact term used in the GHotR, btw. So the idea of genocide IS something that faerūnians consider reprehensible, and at least as early as 660 they tried to codify a system of laws to avoid it.
However, when the latter occurs, less so. The takeaway I get from that is that the concept of culture as something that should be preserved, even in the case of a conflict between two different cultures, is less important and more fluid. Nations rise and fall, people are absorbed into one or another, such is the way of things. But life still has value (value that can range from selling individuals into slavery to increasing your number of vassal farmers to intermarriage and cultural integration to maintaining a subculture within your majority culture) and snuffing out every last person is wrong.
So yes, when I apply the term "genocide" in the modern sense (including the elimination of cultures but not the death of all its people, such as in the case of the Descent of the Drow), there is some room for interpretation. However, I also assume that anyone asking for a rundown of a modern, Earth concept applied to a pre-modern fantasy world would understand that it is a forced comparison and judge it accordingly. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2013 : 22:24:01
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@carbos
"Indeed, after all elves need their lebensraum."
This is one of the things i find to be faulty as of all the elven kingdoms to exist only Aryvandaar and Aryselmalyr can be considered guilty of this and i find it pretty harsh to judge the elven race on the actions of just two realms out of what 20 to 22 elven realms that had existed.
To your first part I would argue that its not a simplistic view seeing how high fantasy in general is based on our mythical stories of the real world, the technological level in both is the same, the way kingdoms tend to conduct themselves is the same. Just because there are other fantastic races and wonderous magic in fantasy doesn't change that fact. The wars are for the most part still fought the same, they still use phalanx formations like the Romans did, they still make use of infantryman and archer formations and charioteers like the English and Egyptians did, cities are still put under siege when when the enemy is trying to occupy them, and you still have kingdoms expanding their borders at the expense of others. Though I'm curious at what you mean by "prevalence of nation-states (empires, etc) in the Realms makes a HUGE difference in how war is fought"? Because in every game book or novel that i have read that dealt with war in Faerun it felt like i was reading a history book on the crusades or any of the battles in midieval Europe.
As to the topic of genocide at least in part so far to those that i have researched starting with Jhaamdath which was already at war with the elves of Nikerymath as they started invading and destroying the elves land and killing any elf that opposed them. It is stated that before the elves made use of high magic that Jhaamdath had fully killed off 90% of Nikerymath's population and that it was whole generations wiped out " Aside from the coronal and four high mages, no other elves in Rucien Xan had seen a full century of life." It wasn't til then that they resorted to high magic, which was the equivalent of using a tactical nuclear bomb and can be compared to what the allies did to Japan in WW2. And you can argue this all you want but the effects were the same mass destruction and lose of life. As far as considering that genocide I get the feeling that it was more of a defensive attack to end Jhaamdath as a threat, seeing as how there were survivors and it had to be a decent amount if they thought they could reform Jhaamdath, the elves didn,t follow them and keep trying to eradicate them. Its stated that most of them later migrated to other areas and formed places like sembia, cormyr , and the dalelands and i would be surprised if there were still a few small villages or towns that survived in the mountains that was later taken over by other countries. And while before saying it can still be considered "mass murder" take a look at where both the terms "mass murder" and genocide came from, the allied nations that crafted those articles used both carpet bombing and the use of nucks on civilian targets which is listed in the articles of war as a form of mass murder and none of what they did was considered to be crimes in WW2. This is where I find it interesting cause it seems in a case of all out war certain rules no longer apply, there is considered to be some leeway on what is considered acceptable loses to end a war and what is considered malevolent actions to others like mass murder. I would note that for the elves of Nikerymath to wait to 9/10ths of their population to be wiped out before using high magic to solve a problem to be a bit more on the side of being responsible, I don't think i know of any other kingdom for any race that would do that in a war most i bet if they had that power would use it much earlier on just to prove their superiority over the other nation. And from reading the novels i think it shows how the elves are being more responsible by relying on high magic less and less to solve their problems as noted in the "last mythal" series of how they reacted to the nightstar.
As for as Aryselmalyr from reading the sea of falling stars all i can say is that set of wars was a total clusterF%^& and just about every race in there was to blame. As it states in the SoFS the races were killing each other off in wars long before the elves arrived, all the elves did was bring bigger "guns" to the giant death match. Ok thats all i got on the sea elves other than the Laws of battle were crafted just for the kingdoms of seros in response to all the wars there was no surface kingdoms involved in that. And i wouldn't put alot of stock in to the GHotR other than using it to quickly locate dates in the timeline to later look up more fully in one of the 2nd edition books that details the lore of that area. The reason i say this is that Ive found some pieces of lore to have been added in to retcon previous lore making some of it confusing on what sources to be trusted.
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 02:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by kysus
To your first part I would argue that its not a simplistic view seeing how high fantasy in general is based on our mythical stories of the real world, the technological level in both is the same, the way kingdoms tend to conduct themselves is the same. Just because there are other fantastic races and wonderous magic in fantasy doesn't change that fact. The wars are for the most part still fought the same, they still use phalanx formations like the Romans did, they still make use of infantryman and archer formations and charioteers like the English and Egyptians did, cities are still put under siege when when the enemy is trying to occupy them, and you still have kingdoms expanding their borders at the expense of others. Though I'm curious at what you mean by "prevalence of nation-states (empires, etc) in the Realms makes a HUGE difference in how war is fought"?
First, I didn't mean any insult. I also said that applying modern earth terms for things like genocide can be problematic.
We might actually be talking past each other here. There are a lot of things about the Realms that are similar to the Middle Ages. But there are other things that mix it up, in terms of technology, politics, and education. Not only that, generalizing for all of the Realms through all of its history is clearly... wrong and fraught with problems. Orcs of the north and Elves of the forest and humans in Cormyr are all going to fight quite differently with different weapons, tactics, numbers, etc., etc. And that's just circa 1370 and on land! Thus... overly simplistic.
You say that technology is the same in the Realms as the Middle Ages. I disagree!
Longbows didn't see wide usage until the 14th, moving into the 15th century on earth. Caravels were invented in the late 15th century. Steel, while discovered as far back as ancient times, was not easily or widely produced during the Middle Ages.
But the most important difference, in my mind, and the reason I said it made a really big difference, is the evolution of ideas between the Middle Ages and the Renaissance and beyond. Particularly as regards how people view "nations." I would argue that kingdoms do NOT function the same in the Middle Ages on Earth as they do in the Realms (circa 1370). The idea that one is not "vassal of Lord Thunderpants" but instead a Spaniard or a Frenchman or a Sembian or a citizen of Waterdeep... that's huge. That's an idea that gains credence and power not in the Middle Ages, but in the Renaissance. Most states in the Realms, as of the 1370's, adhere to the Westphalian System (mid 17th century) - that is to say, independent, centrally controlled nations that recognize and respect each others authority and borders (until they don't, but that's how we get wars...). Huge.
quote:
Originally posted by kysus
It wasn't til then that they resorted to high magic, which was the equivalent of using a tactical nuclear bomb and can be compared to what the allies did to Japan in WW2.
I don't want to get bogged down in the weeds with this about why the Allies should or should not have used the bomb, but I will point out that it's a broken metaphor - two cities is different than attempting to destroy all of Japan.
quote:
Originally posted by kysus
And while before saying it can still be considered "mass murder" take a look at where both the terms "mass murder" and genocide came from, the allied nations that crafted those articles used both carpet bombing and the use of nucks on civilian targets which is listed in the articles of war as a form of mass murder and none of what they did was considered to be crimes in WW2.
"Those articles"? The terms were not invented by the Allied forces after WWII. I'm not sure what you're referring to. Scholars consider the firebombing of Dresden, the execution of prisoners by Soviet forces, etc, etc. to be mass murder.
quote:
Originally posted by kysus
Ok thats all i got on the sea elves other than the Laws of battle were crafted just for the kingdoms of seros in response to all the wars there was no surface kingdoms involved in that.
The point of saying something about the Laws of Battle was to point out that these ideas were being discussed, not that it would apply to everyone.
quote:
Originally posted by kysus
And i wouldn't put alot of stock in to the GHotR other than using it to quickly locate dates in the timeline to later look up more fully in one of the 2nd edition books that details the lore of that area. The reason i say this is that Ive found some pieces of lore to have been added in to retcon previous lore making some of it confusing on what sources to be trusted.
I understand that you may not agree with everything in the GHotR, but it is canon. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 04 Jul 2013 07:55:13 |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 02:21:12
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'll admit I was surprised by the actions of the elves in Myth Drannor. I had not expected the nobles to be quite that nasty, because in other FR books I had read concerning elves, they did not act that way, though Evermeet had it's share of less than complimentary elves. But in Making of a Mage, the elves were far kinder in nature and to Elminster.
I felt the same way about Myth Drannor. But even in Making of a Mage, elves were not immediately kind or helpful to Elminster. They came to trust him because they accepted him on someone else's word and grew fond of him, iirc.
I think what it came to, in my interpretation, was that Elminster represented a dramatic change in Myth Drannor. One that had been building for some time and had many detractors. He thus drew the ire of those detractors, even if their anger was a more broad fear, bitterness, or displeasure with the movement to open up the city to non-elves.
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"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2013 : 04:36:14
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Beautifully put, Emma. That's exactly what Ed was trying for; that a few elves eagerly embraced the change El represented, the majority were uneasy but saw change as inevitable (but something to be warily managed), and the rest of the elves fiercely fought against it, piling on El because he was the catalyst/poster boy of the change that had been building starting to really roll.
Ed has also said several times and in as many places, down the years since he wrote ElinMD, that he wanted to underscore that decadence and corruption afflicted haughtily overpowerful elves in very much the same way as it afflicted haughtily overpowerful humans.
love,
THO |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2013 : 11:54:34
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Thank you very much for sending us a bit of your experience and Ed's point of view, Lady! It's always a pleasure to see you around.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2013 : 16:57:53
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| Yes, thank you! :) |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2013 : 22:27:41
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-Because it's topical and because it is what I did my college thesis on and get driven nuts when it's improperly used:
-Genocide is not simply killing on a mass scale (though that often happens). Genocide is, specifically, the coordinated and intentional plan to eradicate an entire nation of people. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, adopted by the UN in 1948, defines genocide as, "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".
-I didn't follow the conversation especially closely, but that, hopefully, should help everyone. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2013 : 23:59:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Genocide is not simply killing on a mass scale (though that often happens). Genocide is, specifically, the coordinated and intentional plan to eradicate an entire nation of people. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, adopted by the UN in 1948, defines genocide as, "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".
I think that the distinction has been observed, more or less, in the thread. It's one of the reasons I made two different lists for the OP. I have the same reaction to conflating the ideas. Heh.
For someone reading your definition who isn't versed in the scholarship, there is a little bit of contradiction between "plan to eradicate an entire nation of people" and "in whole or in part."
To anyone who doesn't understand the distinction: What that means is that the desire to eliminate a certain national, ethnic, racial or religious group (a more narrow definition than some scholars adhere to) can also be confined to only part of that group. For example, in the Armenian Genocide, the perpetrators didn't desire the murder of every Armenian everywhere. They wanted to eliminate the minority within their borders. Thus, genocide "in part."
A Realms example of this concept might be the Fall of Blingdenstone. The drow of Menzoberranzan wanted to eliminate the independent presence of all deep gnomes within their sphere of influence. Striking with overwhelming force, they killed or enslaved 3/4 of the population of Blingdenstone. They would have killed or enslaved 100% if they had been able to. So while the drow did not intend to kill all deep gnomes everywhere, their desire to murder all in the city and destroy their unique culture/influence in the area means that it would be considered genocide using this definition. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2013 : 07:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Because it's topical and because it is what I did my college thesis on and get driven nuts when it's improperly used:
-Genocide is not simply killing on a mass scale (though that often happens). Genocide is, specifically, the coordinated and intentional plan to eradicate an entire nation of people. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, adopted by the UN in 1948, defines genocide as, "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".
-I didn't follow the conversation especially closely, but that, hopefully, should help everyone.
omg he posted..... the snow in .... what was big M's layer names??? well the ice melted
and big A's layer froze over..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 12:22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by carbos
I take it most people didn't read Silmarillion, with Noldors commiting one massacre after another or even Hobbit where Elves of Mirkwood show up to loot lone Mountain.
Only replying to this question on Tolkien elves, I met my brother, who is much more a Tolkien fan and expert than me, and he told me the Noldor are cursed. Doing a little research, I found this:
"The Noldor led by Fėanor demanded that the Teleri let them use their ships. When the Teleri refused, they took the ships by force, committing the first kinslaying. A messenger from the Valar came later and delivered the Prophecy of the North, pronouncing Doom on the Noldor for the Kinslaying and rebellion and warning that if they proceeded they would not recover the Silmarils and moreover that they all will be slain or tormented by grief. At this, some of the Noldor who had no hand in the Kinslaying, including Finarfin son of Finwė and Indis, returned to Valinor, and the Valar forgave them. Other Noldor led by Fingolfin (some of whom were blameless in the Kinslaying) remained determined to leave Valinor for Middle-earth. Prominent among these others was Finarfin's son, Finrod. The Noldor led by Fėanor crossed the sea to Middle-earth, leaving those led by Fingolfin, his half-brother, behind. Upon his arrival in Middle-earth, Fėanor had the ships burned. When the Noldor led by Fingolfin discovered their betrayal, they went farther north and crossed the sea at the Grinding Ice which cost them many lives."
And remember Fėanor is the elf who was fooled into forging the One Ring. Well, since Tolkien doesn't have drow, maybe they would be the closer race to Dark elves by the D&D perspective.
Besides, as I said before, Mirkwood elves are generally identified with Wood Elves, who were neutral in the original AD&D settings. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Topic |
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How many genocides were committed by Elves in FR?
Topic Locked
