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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 15 May 2013 : 03:15:31
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Well it seems they had a guest author for most of the planning...
And everyone says they hate 4e becuase they lost everything the liked or loved in 3e.....
Well guess who the guest author was?
george rr martin
yep
Everything you were just starting to love...was killed by ...him..
none of this is true
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 03:53:35
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*Blink* So why did you post this if quote:
none of this is true
Is there something you forgot to type in your post that even makes the name Martin reverent? (Maybe a link, WotC statement, something? ) |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 15 May 2013 03:56:30 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 04:18:39
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| Ill wait for someone that reads his books to post, and maybe help understand the joke. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 04:42:30
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I've read all the books and get the joke. I'm just not sure why it's relevant since it isn't true. 
I loved the A Song of Ice and Fire series, though A Dance with Dragons was the weakest in the series so far. Mostly because it was all a build up to what is about to take place in the next book. I'm a shameless fanboy of the setting and books.
Besides, if George RR Martin was writing a novel for the Realms it'd be completed sometime around 2025.  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 05:11:39
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Ill wait for someone that reads his books to post, and maybe help understand the joke.
You this was a joke, in that case it was posted to the wrong shelf. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 05:27:40
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this is general chat, how is it wrong?
Am glad someone got the joke :P |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 15:15:13
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I've only read the first two books (so no spoilers please), but I am assuming it is the whole "the world was changed by the novels" thing, which occurs in many, MANY series.
If you want to know the real reason (IMO), its because there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians. When someone like George Martin, Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan, etc, change their settings via the main storyline, its acceptable, because the story has been running in that one* direction since the beginning.
In a shared world, we have dozens of authors - each with their own ideas about which direction the world should (d)evolve in - all running in different directions. That's not an epic story, that's just a mess. Thats where 4e went wrong - it tried to do too many things at once, and became something entirely unrecognizable to most of the fans (game and setting alike).
So yeah, the George Martin thing may be applicable (if you mean what I think you mean), but had it been just ONE person steering the ship, rather then lots of people with separate agendas, then it may have been a lot less jarring.
Conversely, there is too much going on on a corporate level to allow enough freedom of creativity. When I think of some of FR's better authors - Ed, RAS, Elaine, Paul Kemp, etc - I picture Michelangelo in The Agony and the Ecstasy... especially Elaine. Its not easy to work within the confines of someone else's script.
There are way too factors involved to point to any one thing that "went wrong". Thats all I'm saying.
*Robert Jordan is an exception, of sorts. His books read like they were written by dozens of different people with separate agendas. I lost interest after the last book (actually written by him) - I just couldn't keep track of all the sub-sub-sub-plots going on. When you are reading a story, and they start to tell you what a certain character is doing - and you NEED TO GO LOOK UP WHO THAT PERSON IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA - then the series just falls apart, IMHO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 May 2013 22:08:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 15:59:48
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| lol, yeah, I didn't start reading a Song of Fire and Ice until the first season of Game of Thrones. I've only been waiting for the next installment for a little over a year, and I feel for those people who have waited multiple years between each installment. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 16:10:47
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Heck I've written and published a book about the long waits between Martin's books. Also feel free to peruse our forum for disgruntled Martin fans at www.iswintercoming.com
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 17:47:17
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| He kills off what readers tend to get fond of *hence the joke* |
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TheHermit
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 19:47:18
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| When a joke needs this much explanation and discussion, you may want to workshop it a little more. |
- "Glitz & Klax's Potions & Elixirs"/"The Sandmen", Inside Ravens Bluff, The Living City; 1990; TSR, Inc.
- "The Far Guardians' Traveler's Mission", Port of Ravens Bluff; 1991, TSR, Inc.
- "Signs Painted", Polyhedron #70; April, 1992; TSR, Inc.
- Communications Director, Coliseum of Comics, Orlando, FL - http://coliseumofcomics.com/ |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 19:53:10
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| Go back to your cave hermit :P |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 20:15:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've only read the first two books (so no spoilers please), but I am assuming it is the whole "the world was changed by the novels" thing, which occurs in many, MANY series.
if you want to know the real reason, its because there are too many chiefs and not enough indians. When someone like George Martin, Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan, etc, change their settings via the main storyline, its acceptable, because the story has been running in that one* direction since the beginning.
[/size=1]
The simple reason the 4e realms was such a dismal failure was because the developers took charge of it instead of the writers. If the writers like Ed Greenwood had the helmsman power he has now, we would never have gotten such a shoddy idea as the plague realms.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 22:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
He kills off what readers tend to get fond of *hence the joke*
Oh, hadn't caught that part. Yeah, he does do that, but then you find out that they're "not really dead" half the time. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 22:19:13
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Well, yeah.
What works for Walking Dead apparently doesn't work for FR (although it also seems to work for Martin - the fact that "no-one is safe" is one of the things I like about his writing).
Of course, there is a world of difference between killing off much-loved characters (Blackstaff, etc) and turning the clock ahead a century and saying "everyone is dead, lets move on". Its the reason why everyone hated the second Thomas Covenant series. Sadly, there is an even better example (much 'closer to home') - how the Cataclysm split the DL fanbase.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." --- George Santayana
Either that, or they just couldn't bothered to study the past - fictional OR real. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 May 2013 22:20:10 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 22:51:32
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Aw, GRRM's early work was the essential inspiration behind Charles Stross's inception of the Gith race(s), and for that awesome planar masterpiece of relentless evil I can forever forgive their lesser writings.
4E was quite alive for many years, but if by "killed" you mean it altered the D&D game and D&D settings drastically enough to "ruin" its popularity then I wouldn't place the blame on a blameless author, I would place it squarely on the shoulders of Wizbro brand management. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 May 2013 22:54:44 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 00:25:53
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I got the joke.  |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 05:47:19
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| Markustay, what is the DL? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 12:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Markustay, what is the DL?
Dragonlance. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 01:57:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*Robert Jordan is an exception, of sorts. His books read like they were written by dozens of different people with separate agendas. I lost interest after the last book (actually written by him) - I just couldn't keep track of all the sub-sub-sub-plots going on. When you are reading a story, and they start to tell you what a certain character is doing - and you NEED TO GO LOOK UP WHO THAT PERSON IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA - then the series just falls apart, IMHO.
Wheel of Time is awesome! I plan to read the last one as soon as I finish Prophet of the Dead
I haven't read Song of Ice and Fire because I heard he kills, like, almost everyone. "I like this character...oh, crap, now he's dead! What about this one? Nope, that guy is dead too". Not for me. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 03:13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I haven't read Song of Ice and Fire because I heard he kills, like, almost everyone. "I like this character...oh, crap, now he's dead! What about this one? Nope, that guy is dead too". Not for me.
I would argue that George RR Martin gets a bad wrap when it comes to killing characters in a Song of Ice and Fire. He doesn't kill characters willy-nilly for no reason. Every major character in the books that has endured hardship or death earned it fair and square. Every major character who has died earned it either through actively and knowingly pissing off those more powerful, or acted in a manner that was in character but incredibly stupid.
There are consequences in a Song of Ice and Fire, and more often than not they are harsh. It's just not a world where there is a set group of heroes, who can stand toe to toe with the evil overlord, spit in his eye, mock him openly, and then escape to safety to eventually defeat him and bring about an era of peace and happiness for all. Such a foolish character would be captured, dragged away, tortured, and then most likely executed unless they are forced to endure something far worse.
However, there is some karmic justice built into the world. Genuinely bad people get punished, and often suffer horrible fates even worse than those they inflicted on others. Anyone whose read far enough to know the story of Reek knows that fact to be true. *Shudder* Talk about a fate worse than death.
It's also a world where there really isn't a strong line dividing good guys and bad guys. It's just a world filled with people, all of whom have their own motivations, character flaws, and personal values. Some are willing to go further than others to get what they want, and others are not either because of the risks involved or because of their values.
Characters that you may hate in the beginning, turn out to be more than just horrific monsters that deserve death. Some of them earn a redemption or have redeeming qualities. Of course, some horrific monsters just stay horrific monsters.
It's a rich, complex, and compelling world. It's not a place you'd like to visit and live - a world where might makes right isn't all that great - but you could believe that such a world could exist. I genuinely believe that any adult who loves fantasy is missing out if they don't read them. (And let's be clear these *ARE* books for adults, as they are rather graphic in all departments from sex to war. The sex scenes occasionally verge on erotica, and war is portrayed in a way that is realistic - often with completely innocent people suffering because of more powerful people's ambition.) |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4469 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 04:27:26
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| For the record, I think the 4E Realms has probably the most original elements in it so far and has been my favorite version of the setting to-date. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4469 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 04:30:02
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*Robert Jordan is an exception, of sorts. His books read like they were written by dozens of different people with separate agendas. I lost interest after the last book (actually written by him) - I just couldn't keep track of all the sub-sub-sub-plots going on. When you are reading a story, and they start to tell you what a certain character is doing - and you NEED TO GO LOOK UP WHO THAT PERSON IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA - then the series just falls apart, IMHO.
Wheel of Time is awesome! I plan to read the last one as soon as I finish Prophet of the Dead
I haven't read Song of Ice and Fire because I heard he kills, like, almost everyone. "I like this character...oh, crap, now he's dead! What about this one? Nope, that guy is dead too". Not for me.
I read the book and I pretty much stopped there. It's just not a story that I could get into. I was REALLY hoping they would develope the storyline about the creatures above the "Wall" and.......yea no story yet and it's still summer. STOP SAYING "Winter is Coming!" no it frickin' ain't. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 05:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
this is general chat, how is it wrong?
Well it is General Forgotten Realms chat, posting a joke that attacks an author that had nothing to do with any part of 4th Edition clearly does not belong IMO is this section of the Keep. Well Met might have been a better place to offer your joke. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 17 May 2013 05:25:10 |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 06:50:36
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| Uhm out of all the many main characters only one is dead, and that demise is the catalyst for opening up the plot for the series and thus necessary. A few secondary characters bite the, ah, arrow but the whole GRRM killing off characters is exaggerated. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 09:18:52
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| Good joke. I love GRM but he does tend to kill of pretty much every character that you can root for. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 11:29:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
Uhm out of all the many main characters only one is dead, and that demise is the catalyst for opening up the plot for the series and thus necessary. A few secondary characters bite the, ah, arrow but the whole GRRM killing off characters is exaggerated.
This.
Seriously, I consider the last book to be the weakest in the entire series so far, and my biggest complaint is that he wasn't rough enough with most of the main characters. One especially felt like he had bullet proof plot armor, and even though he's my favorite character in the books there are a handful of moments that took place where GRRM should have killed / screwed him, but didn't.
I can understand why people find reading the books difficult when -EVERY- character is supposedly at risk. Hell, there were two cases where I had to put the book down a few minutes (and I'm pretty sure most people reading it had the same reaction). It's a bit like being punched in the gut. It's brutal. You're rooting for them to succeed. Then because they screw up spectacularly they fail and they reap the consequences of that failure.
However, I don't think anyone can honestly read the books and say that they didn't earn their deaths. No one can say, with honesty, that within the context of the story and setting that what happened wasn't appropriate. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 11:30:07
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I fail to understand people’s love for Martin’s novels. They aren’t really that great. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 12:58:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
Uhm out of all the many main characters only one is dead, and that demise is the catalyst for opening up the plot for the series and thus necessary. A few secondary characters bite the, ah, arrow but the whole GRRM killing off characters is exaggerated.
It's more than a few characters, and not all of them are secondary -- some were indeed primary characters. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 13:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*Robert Jordan is an exception, of sorts. His books read like they were written by dozens of different people with separate agendas. I lost interest after the last book (actually written by him) - I just couldn't keep track of all the sub-sub-sub-plots going on. When you are reading a story, and they start to tell you what a certain character is doing - and you NEED TO GO LOOK UP WHO THAT PERSON IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA - then the series just falls apart, IMHO.
Wheel of Time is awesome! I plan to read the last one as soon as I finish Prophet of the Dead
I haven't read Song of Ice and Fire because I heard he kills, like, almost everyone. "I like this character...oh, crap, now he's dead! What about this one? Nope, that guy is dead too". Not for me.
I read the book and I pretty much stopped there. It's just not a story that I could get into. I was REALLY hoping they would develope the storyline about the creatures above the "Wall" and.......yea no story yet and it's still summer. STOP SAYING "Winter is Coming!" no it frickin' ain't.
Like I said above, I've only read the first two in the series, and I love it... but yeah, so many times he foreshadows something... and then that character dies. I have to admit the novelty of that has not worn out for me... yet.
Two things - first, you have to realize the story is about the world - individuals just don't matter (which is what makes it so realistic). Second, the series is highly humanocentric, which is usually lumped into 'low fantasy' (Conan, etc). Aside from WoT and SoT there are dozens of EXCELLENT human-only (or mostly human) series that are considered classics, including Pern. Martin allowed for other creatures/races... but then doesn't dwell on them. I think thats pretty neat - the biggest threat in his setting are other people.
When you don't use tons of fantasy races as a crutch, your stories have to be that much better to keep the reader's interest. I think Martin does that VERY well. The rest is just backdrop. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 May 2013 13:04:35 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 17:44:15
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To be fair....instead of races, he uses houses/tribes of folks, much like eberron does.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
this is general chat, how is it wrong?
Well it is General Forgotten Realms chat, posting a joke that attacks an author that had nothing to do with any part of 4th Edition clearly does not belong IMO is this section of the Keep. Well Met might have been a better place to offer your joke.
Does not really seem to be bothering Wooly, so lets just drop it and let the conversation keep going. |
Edited by - silverwolfer on 17 May 2013 17:45:45 |
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I know what went wrong with 4e finally...
