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muir
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
 Posted - 11 May 2013 : 11:56:24
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No pun intended, but is there any bar to a cleric of Shar pretending to be a cleric of some other deity? I vaguely remember that this is frowned upon/punished, like mages using others' sigils, or nobles using others' heraldry. It does seem covered by her portfolio, though. (For a game set in 1370 DR.)
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Edited by - muir on 11 May 2013 13:39:51
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 14:07:29
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In my game, Beshaba would certainly be happy with it!
In the Realms there's no Olidammara, true, and I'm not 100% sure how Mask would take it, but I reckon he would allow that too.
As for Shar... well, that would depend.
Shar's Dogma (according to Faiths & Avatars) forbids "consorting with" good clerics "unless undertaken to take advantage of them in purely business dealings or to corrupt them from their beliefs into the service of Shar". And it adds that a devotee of Shar "must not speak against clergy of the goddess, nor interrupt their devotional dances for any reason."
So, I would say yes, as long as the above is respected.
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Edited by - Ze on 11 May 2013 14:08:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11857 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 15:53:17
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I would state that its all about intent and whether it furthers the ethos of the god without harming its perception. Thus, Leirans would probably be encouraged to do such. Mask wouldn't have a problem with it either. Shar it would probably depend on the circumstances.
We also have instances where this is seen, such as the cleric of Cyric that posed as a Banite for the Empyrean Odyssey (I forget his name). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 18:47:54
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| I agree that it would depend on the deity and circumstances. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 20:17:38
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quote:
Originally posted by muir
...is there any bar to a cleric of Shar pretending to be a cleric of some other deity?
None that I recall.
I've run a game where a cleric of Velsharoon masqueraded as a cleric of Oghma and led a group of lesser priests where some of those priests were legitimate clerics of the Binder and others were priests of Velsharoon.
All this in a large castle filled with monks, sages, scholars and watched over by priests and warriors of Helm.
So yeah, I'm firmly in the camp that priests can obfuscate who they're truly praying to/fake praying to a deity they don't keep as their patron. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 06:19:39
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| I'd also say it depends on the deity. |
Yan
Playtester |
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muir
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 09:42:31
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No ban from Ao, then.
The deity in question is Leira, who this cleric loudly proclaims not to be as dead as commonly believed. She plans on furthering Shar's aims in Nimbral, and that is all I have at present. Cyric would object, if he gets word of it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11857 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 12:17:40
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So, to get this straight, this priest will invoke the name of Leira in a lie, intending to power Shar. This may be one of those "depends on the circumstances" things... as I see these actions as having a firm chance of solidifying the "return" of Leira (if she's dead) or the subversion of the worship energy to Leira (if she's alive).
Now, I'd love to see this happen. The question is how closely is Shar watching her worshippers to notice this cleric's actions. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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muir
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 14:11:35
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The circumstances follow published canon pretty closely up to that point; Cyric and Mask killed Leira, Cyric inherited most of her portfolio. However, this is not known Realms-wide; many, especially the Nimbrali, know something happened to Leira, and she has been quiet for the last decade or so.
The cleric does know Leira is dead, but isn't that well-versed in cosmological theology, and does not realize that her actions might bring back Leira. Her ruse is designed with two aims in mind. The primary one is to give her an 'in' to Nimbral; even if state worship is now banned, she believes (from...interviewing...ex-priests of Leira who escaped the purge) that there are those on the island who would gladly receive her ministry. With an in, she hopes to convert some Nimbrali mages to the use of the Shadow Weave. The secondary one is weakening Cyric's hold on a portfolio element which is rightfully Shar's. (Not that she thinks in quite those terms.)
Shar did not nudge the cleric into doing this, and, unless things go quite wrong, is unlikely to notice until after the ball is set rolling, so to speak. Once she becomes aware, her actions will depend on how well the cleric is doing. A Beguiler might be sent to help spread, or silence, knowledge of the Shadow Weave. I think Shar would prefer a revived (and perhaps subservient?) Leira to a more-powerful Cyric, and so is unlikely to prevent her restoration unless it would lead to a direct loss of power.
For those wondering, this came out of the "Does your character have any long-term goals?" question I ask each player to answer privately at the start of a new campaign. |
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HandFullofCheese
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 21:22:54
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| I think it would be up to who and how. I played a campaign before where a cleric/wizard of cyric infiltrated the church of bane using certain spells and "mundane" subterfuge. His goal was basically subversion, murder, and chaos. I don't see cyric, the prince of lies, having much problem with that. In fact, would probably find it amusing to anger Bane that way. But some other deities, it seems less likely. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 21:38:04
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quote:
Originally posted by muir
No ban from Ao, then.
The deity in question is Leira, who this cleric loudly proclaims not to be as dead as commonly believed. She plans on furthering Shar's aims in Nimbral, and that is all I have at present. Cyric would object, if he gets word of it.
Ao does not care that much about what followers of a deity does, Ao as I recall was concerned about number of followers a deity had and how treated.
Leira might object if not dead (deities do come back from reports of death in the past).
Shar likely would not care at all a Cleric using a another deity in name as long honor and her goals are worked toward. Lolth clearly has tried this in the past, I do not recall which deity it was to expand followers on the surface. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11857 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 21:56:28
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| Hmmm, this would be very interesting from a roleplaying aspect if the divine worship energy did catch Leira's attention(which granted, how many Nimbrali are already sending her energy, most of which may be getting siphoned to Cyric). The fact that the other worshippers are being "true" worshippers, whereas this worshipper is a "lying" worshipper might just be enough to catch her attention. It would be interesting if the weakened goddess reached out to this Sharran priestess .... pretending to be Shar.... and made her do something. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 22:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It would be interesting if the weakened goddess reached out to this Sharran priestess .... pretending to be Shar....
Interesting indeed. Good thinking sleyvas.
As far as I understand this is a PC's background, so I would take care not to spoil the player's fun. Apart from that, I'd surely steal this idea.
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muir
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 15:23:16
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I second the "Good thinking, sleyvas."
I have yet to use divine appearances in my games, even for the devout clerics, with one exception (and that was when a character's long-term goal was godhood.) I find myself curious what the character's reaction will be when 'Shar' sends her visions/whispers.
As for spoiling the player's fun...I know them well enough to be pretty sure that if they ever realize what is going on (the deceiver deceived) they will be most amused. |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 17:48:51
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In Starlight and Shadows, Shakti Hunzrin serves two gods (Vhaerun and Lolth) and as one of her rewards for her devotion to Vhaerun, she can guard her thoughts from other priestesses of Lolth. In this way she isn't found out by the Lolth clerics as being a devotee of another god. I know also that clerics of Ghaunadaur are allowed to mask their faith by pretending to worship Lolth so that they are not targeted. If it is possible in these cases, why not others?
In Faiths and Avatars, one of Shar's portfolios is "unrevealed secrets" and its says of her: "She revels in the concealed, in that which is hidden, never to be revealed." Her church consists of mostly underground cells and "Her clergy work toward fulfilling her desire for secrecy by always acting through manipulation and behind-closed-doors intrigue." Beyond even that, when she took over Ibrandul's portfolios during the Time of Troubles, she continued to grant his clergy spells in his name, using them as puppets to continue her war against Selūne. Having undercover clerics seems very appropriate for Shar. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 22:24:42
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Priests of Leira, Goddess of Illusions, always deceived and misled people as a way to worship their deity, they never revealed their true faith to outsiders, and they often pretended to be priests of other deities as a way to explain their priestly spellcasting; I imagine they would sometimes carry such deceptions "too far" and even fool each other. Priests of Mask often disguised themselves as priests of other faiths when robbing or infiltrating their temples, although their false faith would only be a tool discarded after it served a purpose.
Cyric often impersonated other deities - even granting powers to their priests - to serve various idiotic and illegal schemes. Shar, Talos, Malar, and Bane sometimes pretend to be other deities - or hide their schemes behind a disposable peon they pretend to elevate as a godling.
And mortal priests, especially evil or ambitious ones easily manipulated through offerings of power, are easily fooled by the Powers they serve. The intrinsic nature of their faith dictates complete trust and belief in a world populated by competitive (and immoral) gods. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 May 2013 22:25:54 |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 22:26:21
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| i would say a cleric could go and do it if it was in line with reaching a goal set by the deity dogma. the only "holy" person whould i dont think would hide there symbol is a palddin |
Edited by - portose_sharpe on 13 May 2013 22:33:03 |
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muir
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 11:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Priests of Leira, Goddess of Illusions, always deceived and misled people as a way to worship their deity, they never revealed their true faith to outsiders, and they often pretended to be priests of other deities as a way to explain their priestly spellcasting; I imagine they would sometimes carry such deceptions "too far" and even fool each other. Priests of Mask often disguised themselves as priests of other faiths when robbing or infiltrating their temples, although their false faith would only be a tool discarded after it served a purpose.
Cyric often impersonated other deities - even granting powers to their priests - to serve various idiotic and illegal schemes. Shar, Talos, Malar, and Bane sometimes pretend to be other deities - or hide their schemes behind a disposable peon they pretend to elevate as a godling.
And mortal priests, especially evil or ambitious ones easily manipulated through offerings of power, are easily fooled by the Powers they serve. The intrinsic nature of their faith dictates complete trust and belief in a world populated by competitive (and immoral) gods.
Some helpful info there, especially on the priests of Leira. They player is planning on being circumspect, but that is the sort of information their torture could have extracted. I agree completely with your last paragraph. The way the player presents the character, she is a true fanatic, and her ambition is to "be ever, only, all for Shar," to mangle a hymn.
Might I ask your source? I suspect 2E books, which I plan on amassing someday. At present, I only have 3E, and no physical copies on hand. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 23:47:54
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My statements are based primarily on 1E/2E/3E lore ... descriptions of this sort about Leira's clergy can be found in 1E FR0: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and/or 2E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, 2E FRA: Forgotten Realms Adventures, 3E Faiths & Pantheons. Leira hasn't received a lot of attention or consistent treatment in published products, and is probably most famous for being slain by Cyric.
New powers (or new names and images for existing powers) are worshipped all the time, numerous countless little cults are ignored throughout the Realms although sometimes one will rise to prominence in some locality. Godlings are often disguised aspects of an established deity, sometimes even a sort of hybrid aspect of several, and their power is rarely high enough to attract the attention of their competitors. All deities - at least those with something to hide - use little cults such as these to further their own power.
[Edit]
To specifically answer your OP query: Shar's clergy often end up believing themselves clerics of some other (usually unknown and seemingly benevolent) goddess, in many cases they aren't even aware their little goddess is some aspect, ally, or false face of Shar. PSK's Twilight War trilogy demonstrates this exact situation, where Shar's position as a goddess of secrets is taken to such extremes that all the highest priests at a temple of Siamorphe (led by an insane manic delusional high priest) are drugged or hypnotized into hallucinogenic dreamlike/nightmarish stupor while offering sacrificial victims to Shar at the secret altar beneath. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 May 2013 23:55:03 |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 16:22:18
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I believe clerics impersonating others is not an unheard of thing, especially with regards to Shar. For instance in Cormyr:Tearing of the Weave the opening plot involves an entire temple of Mystra being run by clerics of shar. Among the Cult of the Dragon there is both a cleric of Tiamat posing as a devotee of Shar and Cyric, and a cleric of Cyric and Shar posing as a worshiper of Talos. Rather involved stuff.
So it seems that a lot of this diety 'masking' goes on but as those above have stated each of these cases will be somewhat circumstance-driven. Though I think many dieties like Shar, Mask, Cyric etc. would be open to infiltrating and converting others from within.
In my campaign I have a Banite npc who got hounded from Zhentil Keep during the Cyricist takeover and posed as a priest of Tempus in Hillsfar...til the dark lord's glorious return that is. |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 09:32:13
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| were they not posing as clerics of mystra in that story? i thought it was clerics of shar posing as a good deity. |
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Can clerics mask their deity?
