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With human bandits they'll occasionally stop to consider that it's society that's forced these men into a life of thievery and murder.

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Originally posted by Venger

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With human bandits they'll occasionally stop to consider that it's society that's forced these men into a life of thievery and murder.

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No, no I'm pretty sure I kill them just as dead without a second thought. I don't think I've ever stopped to wonder what the childhood was like for the human highwayman whose skull I just cleft in two.

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Originally posted by Venger

Yeah, no, even then I don't stop to think how society is to blame for the poor plight of these benighted thieves, murderers, and rapists. I just wonder if I can catch the whole lot of them in a single fireball.

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Originally posted by Venger

Yeah, no, even then I don't stop to think how society is to blame for the poor plight of these benighted thieves, murderers, and rapists. I just wonder if I can catch the whole lot of them in a single fireball.

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Originally posted by Venger

Yeah, no, even then I don't stop to think how society is to blame for the poor plight of these benighted thieves, murderers, and rapists. I just wonder if I can catch the whole lot of them in a single fireball.

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Originally posted by Ze

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You forgot the rest of the line: I don`t want to play a human. Being a human in a human world, I want to play a non-human, because I don`t want to be the same in fantasy as I am IRL, even if I could kick butt.

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CD, I was just joking, I didn't mean to offend you, and if I did, please accept my apologies.
Just to make two things clear -
1- kicking butt has never been my criterium for creating a character.
2- Even if I play a human in the Realms, it's hardly the same as I am in RL.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
What alignment do you play as, Venger?

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"Good roleplaying does not preclude the possibility of fireballing their asses."

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Speaking for myself, the attractiveness, or lack thereof, for orcs and goblins has never been a reason to dislike them. Their millennia-long history of rampaging across civilized lands and killing other folks just because they are there, that's been my reason to dislike them. And when you live in a place where this happens, and where you prolly know someone who was killed by orcs or goblins, then a prejudiced attitude is rather justified. Actions, not appearance.

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Well, look at it from the orc and goblin's point of view. Humans, dwarves, and elves have millennia long histories of raiding their villages, slaughtering their people, and forcing them to live on lands where it's impossible to cultivate anything, giving them no other way to survive than to raid, pillage, and plunder. They have no more reason than to spare a human/elven/dwarven life than the human/elf/dwarf has reason to spare them.

But that's aside the point. I have a problem with writers casting orcs and goblins in this light to begin with. Now, I'm not saying I want orcs to be fluffy, cuddly, friendly people. In my own campaign they are still a very warlike race.

But when it's as simple as they raid and kill for no other reason than that they're orcs, it goes back to the idea that we're giving the heroes or the pc's something to kill without making them consider the consequences of it.

With human bandits they'll occasionally stop to consider that it's society that's forced these men into a life of thievery and murder. With orcs, they're inhuman monsters that kill because that's what they do.

There is a place for creatures of pure and irredeemable evil in D&D. That place is called the lower planes. Demons, devils, yugoloths, etc, these are creatures literally made of evil.

Orcs, goblins, drow; these are mortal creatures possessed of free will who should be cast and written as such. They should be more complex than simple brutes and backstabbing scoundrels.

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Originally posted by Venger

Yeah, no, even then I don't stop to think how society is to blame for the poor plight of these benighted thieves, murderers, and rapists. I just wonder if I can catch the whole lot of them in a single fireball.

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Originally posted by Apex

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Originally posted by Venger

Yeah, no, even then I don't stop to think how society is to blame for the poor plight of these benighted thieves, murderers, and rapists. I just wonder if I can catch the whole lot of them in a single fireball.

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Hear, hear! That is my kind of gaming and more importantly it is in this light that Gary created the game in the first place. Yes, there are supposed to be clear delineations between good an evil. That is one of the prime aspects of fantasy as a genre. Also, last I checked, Orcs didn't evolve, they were created by an evil god in his image. The only difference between an orc soldier and an orc child is about 7XP's.

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Originally posted by Venger

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
What alignment do you play as, Venger?

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Generally Lawful Good, which isn't the same as Lawful Bleeding Heart.

I'd think you'd be happy, though. I'm not treating the human bandits any differently from the orc bandits. I'm not judging them on the color of their skin, but by the content of their character...

...which is that of a scumbag who deserves to have a fireball shoved up his ass.

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"Good roleplaying does not preclude the possibility of fireballing their asses."

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Precisely!

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Hear, hear! That is my kind of gaming and more importantly it is in this light that Gary created the game in the first place. Yes, there are supposed to be clear delineations between good an evil. That is one of the prime aspects of fantasy as a genre. Also, last I checked, Orcs didn't evolve, they were created by an evil god in his image. The only difference between an orc soldier and an orc child is about 7XP's.

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I think Drow do at least have their "morality" shown, buy you present a good case for the orcs and goblins. Yes, fiends are the absolutely evil beings. However, that being said, I do believe we've been presented several visions at least in the realms where Orcs are given the chance to be civilized. Some cultures even live alongside them with little difficulty (some even consider half orcs normal members of their community).

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Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, what began in 4e as a reduction in alignments will end in 5e with everyone being Neutral Greedy.

You don't rescue the Princess from the dragon anymore, you slay the dragon, take its horde, and then you take the Princess' crown and anything else of value she has on and sell her to the first slaver you come across.

YAY! for heroes.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus


Do you want to guess how much I care about the late Mr. Gygax's opinion on...anything? Don't get me wrong, I have considerable respect for the man, but this line of thinking is not only outdated, it's one of the cancers that constrains the fantasy genre. It locks it in a narrow corner where there's no room to explore or grow. Placing these kind of restrictions on the world takes the wonder and fantasy out of fantasy.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

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Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, what began in 4e as a reduction in alignments will end in 5e with everyone being Neutral Greedy.

You don't rescue the Princess from the dragon anymore, you slay the dragon, take its horde, and then you take the Princess' crown and anything else of value she has on and sell her to the first slaver you come across.

YAY! for heroes.

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No, these days you come to find out that the princess was a petty tyrant who rules her kingdom with all the generosity and maturity one can expect from a spoiled rich entitled teenager, and the dragon was trying to spare the population the suffering that she would inflict on them should she come to power.

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"Glory & Gold Won by Sorcery & Sword

You’re no hero.

You’re an adventurer: a reaver, a cutpurse, a heathen-slayer, a tight-lipped warlock guarding long-dead secrets. You seek gold and glory, winning it with sword and spell, caked in the blood and filth of the weak, the dark, the demons, and the vanquished. There are treasures to be won deep underneath, and you shall have them."

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"Adventurer is a dirty word. You’re a scoundrel, a villain, a wastrel, a vagabond, a criminal, a sword-for-hire, cutthroat. Respectable people belong to guilds, the church or are born into nobility. Or barring all that, they’re salt of the earth and till the land for the rest of us. Your problem is that you’re none of that. You’re a third child or worse. You can’t get into a guild—too many apprentices already. You’re sure as hell not nobility—even if you were, your older brothers and sisters have soaked up the inheritance. The churches—they’ll take you, but they have so many acolytes, they hand you kit and a holy sign and send you right out the door again: Get out there and preach the word and find something nice for mother church. And if you ever entertained romantic notions of farming, think again. You’d end up little more than a slave to a wealthy noble.

So there’s naught for us but to make our own way. There’s a certain freedom to it, but it’s a hard life. Cash flows out of our hands as easily as the blood from our wounds. But at least it’s our life. And if we're lucky, smart and stubborn, we might come out on top. There’s a lot of lost loot out there for the finding. And salvage law is mercifully generous. We find it, it’s ours to spend, sell or keep."

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Well, it's still a question of simplicity.

How do you know they're rapists? How do you know they're murderers? Does the DM cast them as mustache twirling stereotypes? Did someone tell you they were murdering rapists? Why do you believe the person who told you that? Was it a potentially corrupt authority figure using you as a tool to eradicate the rebellious freedom fighters who're throwing a wrench into his small scale tyranny? If they are evil, why kill them as a first resort? Why not try and arrest them to face justice, killing them only when they force your hand?

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I have no problem with the use of lethal force when necessary and I'm generally more liberal when it comes to what qualifies as "necessary". But I know people who have, in real life, killed other people and have had it ruled justifiable homicide. Even still, it's something that haunts them. It's something they carry with them every day for the rest of their life. They may not be angsting about it constantly, but it isn't something that is casual.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I have no problem with characters in universe having racist attitudes towards orcs/half-orcs, tieflings, elves, dwarves, whatever. That's fine. I include that in my own home brew, despite favoring (half)orcs and tieflings over other races personally.

What I have a problem with is the player attitude of "It's ugly, kill it" "It's not human, kill it." "It's different, kill it." I hate that attitude in players, I hate that attitude in writers. It's moral simplicity taken to an offensive level.

And while I'm fine with the in-universe racism playing a part, I do have issues with writers making it perfectly justified. Playing orcs and goblinoids up as stupid marauding brutes is boring and is done to give the heroes something they can kill without tackling the moral complexity that comes with taking a life, which is something else I find offensive. Killing is never something that should be done lightly, at least not by heroes. It is sometimes, indeed, often justified. But it should never be justified just because "they're orcs", or "they're goblins" or "they're monsters". Because something isn't like us, because it is "the other", is not sufficient reason to kill it with moral impunity. Killing an orc should have no more or less moral weight than killing a dwarf or an elf; a life is a life.

These are my issues.

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Originally posted by Venger

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Well, it's still a question of simplicity.

How do you know they're rapists? How do you know they're murderers? Does the DM cast them as mustache twirling stereotypes? Did someone tell you they were murdering rapists? Why do you believe the person who told you that? Was it a potentially corrupt authority figure using you as a tool to eradicate the rebellious freedom fighters who're throwing a wrench into his small scale tyranny? If they are evil, why kill them as a first resort? Why not try and arrest them to face justice, killing them only when they force your hand?

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If I'm fireballing them to death I pretty much already know they're bad guys.

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That's pretty circular logic. "Of course I'll kill them, they're bad guys." "But how do you know?" "Well, if I'm killing them of course they're bad."

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Originally posted by Venger

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Well, it's still a question of simplicity.

How do you know they're rapists? How do you know they're murderers? Does the DM cast them as mustache twirling stereotypes? Did someone tell you they were murdering rapists? Why do you believe the person who told you that? Was it a potentially corrupt authority figure using you as a tool to eradicate the rebellious freedom fighters who're throwing a wrench into his small scale tyranny? If they are evil, why kill them as a first resort? Why not try and arrest them to face justice, killing them only when they force your hand?

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If I'm fireballing them to death I pretty much already know they're bad guys.

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I have no problem with the use of lethal force when necessary and I'm generally more liberal when it comes to what qualifies as "necessary". But I know people who have, in real life, killed other people and have had it ruled justifiable homicide. Even still, it's something that haunts them. It's something they carry with them every day for the rest of their life. They may not be angsting about it constantly, but it isn't something that is casual.

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You expect me to angst over the fictional people I kill in an RPG?

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No, but I would expect your character to.

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I would angst over fictional people, and do XD

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Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, what began in 4e as a reduction in alignments will end in 5e with everyone being Neutral Greedy.

You don't rescue the Princess from the dragon anymore, you slay the dragon, take its horde, and then you take the Princess' crown and anything else of value she has on and sell her to the first slaver you come across.

YAY! for heroes.

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