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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 02:05:13
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| Um, no... in general for everyone. It is more logical. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 04:26:53
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Beast,
Pretty funny. I was always partial to the sales pitch for: "Melf's Minute Meteors - Got a Minute? Have a Meteor!"
MrH,
That was me being sarcastic. Lol.
I appreciate that you have got that POV, but I just can't get on board with it. If you make matrilineal descent your 'go to' system then it serves to further cheapen the role of fathers in society. We men are already biologically disposable enough (200 million sperm versus 1 egg = young men die on the medieval battlefield in droves) for me to sign up for that! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 19:05:41
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| It is more logical because, as I already stated, you always know who somebody's mother is. In patrilineal descent there is paranoia about women's sexuality to assure paternity, concepts such as "bastard children", and so forth. I was discussing lineage in imaginary societies not contemporary social issues, too. |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 19:25:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Some have speculated that certain Priests would not accept marriage of opposing faiths. Speculation is not the same as canon.
In Elminster's Daughter, Joysil describes how Nouméa Cardellith's (née Fairbright) husband paid her to stay away, changed churches, and remarried in his new church, annulling their original marriage. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 20:27:02
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Mr H,
Again, we shall simply have to agree to disagree about the potential meritorious benefits of a hypothetical matrilineal system. To each their own!
On the issue of discussions of imaginary societies versus real world ones (the distinction of contemporary versus pre-modern isn't really relevant to our point - that was my point! Lol), I'd merely point out that my whole argument was based on the fact that humans - no matter where you happen upon them - share the same basic biology. That means we have the same basic strengths, but it also means we have the same basic weaknesses. So, male concerns about the paternity of their offspring are going to prove something you'd need to tackle be it here, there, or anywhere. Sure, societies can vary, but only along a continuum defined by the limits of human biology. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 00:25:29
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I don't agree to disagree when you're wrong.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 00:39:03
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Asking another to change and opinion or outlook and then declare they are wrong because they do not agree with you is poor user interface.
With that said, there clearly can be merit in tracing bloodline from Mothers, short of the Drow Matron killing the midwife (if one was used) and true blood mother type of event, most births clearly do come from the Mother without doubt.
Society however does not yet follow the idea that the Female is Dominate and it does not matter at all who the Father is.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 00:50:14
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MrH,
I think you misunderstood my use of the phrase 'agree to disagree', Lol. Here is what I meant: "(idiomatic, of two persons or other parties) To tolerate each other's opinion and stop arguing; to acknowledge that an agreement will not be reached. I know we're never going to agree on the merits of vegetarianism so let's agree to disagree, shall we?
(http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/agree_to_disagree)
I get that you've got your opinion, and when dealing with sociological issues all we can ultimately have are opinions. There is no 'absolutely correct' way to run a social railroad. That's the beauty of dealing with human beings!
Also, thanks for the peacemaking assist Kentinal. Hopefully we've put this debate to bed.
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 04:21:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
Beast,
Pretty funny. I was always partial to the sales pitch for: "Melf's Minute Meteors - Got a Minute? Have a Meteor!"
MrH,
That was me being sarcastic. Lol.
I appreciate that you have got that POV, but I just can't get on board with it. If you make matrilineal descent your 'go to' system then it serves to further cheapen the role of fathers in society. We men are already biologically disposable enough (200 million sperm versus 1 egg = young men die on the medieval battlefield in droves) for me to sign up for that!
I have to go with MrH on this one. Matrilineal descent is really the only SURE way to know the ancestry of an individual. Unless the mother gave the child up anonymously, the mother will nearly ALWAYS be known for certain. Not so with fathers, when a woman can claim any of a number of possible candidates as the father, whether it be her "husband"/recognized mate or someone else.
Unfortunately, in a medieval-based fantasy society (or any pre-modern society) there is no way to be truly certain of the actual paternity. Maternity on the other hand, is pretty straightforward. A woman gives birth, which is clear and irrefutable evidence of maternity of the child. This is why it was historically used as a means of determining bloodlines in ancient times. It would be much the same in the Realms. How does this cheapen or trivialize the role of fathers? They are still necessary for there to even BE a child- just not to determine its legitimacy. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 04:41:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
This is why it was historically used as a means of determining bloodlines in ancient times. It would be much the same in the Realms. How does this cheapen or trivialize the role of fathers? They are still necessary for there to even BE a child- just not to determine its legitimacy.
Historically? That's a pretty broad proclamation. Where? When?
Edit: To be more clear... While matrilineal descent was the tradition in some societies, it was not, by any stretch of the imagination, "the way things were done in ancient times," which is what it appears you're saying. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 27 Jun 2013 04:56:03 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 05:40:55
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Alystra,
While I won't dispute the obvious logic of your argument that, in a pre-modern society (read pre-1980's when DNA testing became available, Lol) you cannot be 100% sure that a child descends from a father instead of a mother, this doesn't mean it should be the best or only way to go when trying to provide proof of legitimacy for descent purposes in a society.
I see Emma has plunged in and pointed out that, in fact, very few historical civilizations have taken this approach to determining descent/inheritance/etc. So, I won't go into much detail about that issue (other than to note that none of the societies who did so approached the complexity of a high medieval European city state - the Iroquois nation probably being the closest to such).
Now, I want to be VERY clear that I have NO problem with the idea of sexual equality or the concept of the eldest (or even most capable - regardless of birth order) child of EITHER gender inheriting power, land, money, or the throne in a kingdom. I'll also grant that in dealing with a fantasy world with many differing races and cultural groups you'd be much more likely to see many different ways of running the 'social railroad' than we saw in Earth's history.
However, (and here is where I'll do my best to respond to your question) when you mix a certain level of gender equality (and the sexual decision making power that goes with it) with a system that basically says 'we aren't even going to bother trying to figure out if you are really the father of this child' you have a recipe for the role of a father in the life of a family being greatly diminished.
When I made my comments before about always remembering human biology when discussing the impact of hypothetical social systems on the function of a society, I made it recognizing that women are reproductively predisposed to the selection of certain mate criteria (just as men are). Women viscerally prefer fitter, stronger, more 'masculine' featured men (strong jawed, symmetrical faced, etc) with higher perceived levels of power and lower perceived levels of weakness/emotion. Some men are the biological 'winners' in this lottery, but most are not. That is part of why few of us fellas find ourselves in high demand by the opposite sex without having to really work at it. What's worse for men is that it only takes a few minutes for an 'interloping' high reproductive value male to sire a child with a woman.
The potential impact of this in a society where paternity isn't monitored because it simply doesn't matter, is that women would be able to slyly (or perhaps not even so slyly - as in the case with drow) breed with whomever they wanted to while men would have limited recourse over the issue. That would leave a small number of reproductively advantaged men siring the majority of the children in that society - while not bearing their share of the responsibility for raising those children. Instead you'd have men who were 'fathers' in name - but whose bloodlines would actually be slowly dying out before their eyes - serving as the main 'paternal role models' for children. Not a pretty picture.
Lack of social power brings with it a lack of respect (a sad historical truth many women would likely agree with), and lopsided power distribution eventually corrupts even those with the finest of intentions. So, men who tried to buck such a system could be easily dismissed by women. Basically you'd be allowing a woman who felt like it to say, 'you parent these children only because I allow you to, we don't even know for sure you are their father, disagree with me and be cast out of this family.' I can't imagine that would help anyone to build a healthy role for fatherhood in such a society.
The historical alternative (matrilineality within a patriarchal power structure) seems to result in even greater degrees of repression/social control by men over women (as you point out in your earlier reply on this topic) and that's not helpful either! So, I just don't see how you square the circle with matrilineally emerging as your preferred model of social organization for a pre-modern society. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
Edited by - Kris the Grey on 27 Jun 2013 20:45:44 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11803 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 00:43:32
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Just my viewpoint on the patrilinear and matrilinear discussion
If the father is expected to specifically take care of "his woman" and "his children" and shamed for not doing so... then I see it definitely being a patrilinear society.
If its instead a society where the community raises the children and men simply take on the role of "protector/defender" and women take on the role of "child rearers until they become old enough to be young servants for the men"... then I could see matrilinear.
Thus, most realms societies in my view would be patrilinear, since the father is expected to take on a role in raising "his" kids. There's very few "it takes a village" cultures in the realms. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2013 : 04:23:55
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I agree with mostly everything you've written in your previous post Kris the Grey, but I think one important thing is overlooked... magic.
Does anyone honestly believe that absolutely no one in the Realms has come up with a paternity spell?
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Pregnancy Test [Divination]
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 5 Minutes
Range: Touch
Duration: 5 Minutes
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Focus: Urine sample from a female.
You cast a spell to determine whether or not a female is pregnant. If the focus (a urine sample) glows green then it means she is pregnant. If it glows red it means she is not pregnant.
Paternity [Divination]
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 5 Minutes
Range: Touch
Duration: 5 Minutes
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Focus: A wedding ring or other object used in a marriage ceremony.
You cast a spell on a female who is pregnant to determine the legitimacy of her fetus. If the focus (usually a wedding ring) glows green then the fetus is a legitimate heir. If the focus glows red it is not a legitimate heir.
Abort Fetus [Necromancy]
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 5 Minutes
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude Saving Throw
Spell Resistance: Yes
You cast this spell on a female who is pregnant. If she fails the saving throw she miscarries the fetus within her, successfully ending her pregnancy. There is no long term harm to her reproduction caused by using this spell, even if it is used multiple times.
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Here the major pressing issues are solved. So long as the society and culture is very open to abortion, and even socially punishes females who knowingly give birth to illegitimate children - then it solves most of the major issues. Combine this with other forms of contraception of the non-magical sort, and we can probably deal with most of the issues raised.
I'd find it shocking to discover that spells similar to the above didn't exist in the Realms and were not extremely common. (So common, in fact, that many people developed different spells to accomplish the same exact task just slightly differently.) |
Edited by - Aldrick on 29 Jun 2013 04:28:23 |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2013 : 05:28:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If the father is expected to specifically take care of "his woman" and "his children" and shamed for not doing so... then I see it definitely being a patrilinear society.
If its instead a society where the community raises the children and men simply take on the role of "protector/defender" and women take on the role of "child rearers until they become old enough to be young servants for the men"... then I could see matrilinear.
I assume that patrilineality (?) is implicit in most of the Realms (someone more knowledgeable on FR's various regions, kingdoms, etc. could comment better than I) but part of the fun of creating a world (or a portion thereof) is to think up interesting new ways of doing things and how they might be instantiated.
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Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2013 : 14:24:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Does anyone honestly believe that absolutely no one in the Realms has come up with a paternity spell?
LOL - The wizard Maury Povich has a show on the Crystal Ball Network - Who da baby-daddy? 
"Just look at that kid Maury - it has tusks! That ain't mine!"  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2013 : 15:42:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Does anyone honestly believe that absolutely no one in the Realms has come up with a paternity spell?
LOL - The wizard Maury Povich has a show on the Crystal Ball Network - Who da baby-daddy?
"Just look at that kid Maury - it has tusks! That ain't mine!"
LOL. I was imagining Vangerdahast in the role of Maury Povich for all of Azoun IV's bastard children.
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2013 : 23:33:45
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Aldrick/Markustay,
Funny stuff, Lol.
I know THO or Ed (or some combination of the two!) talked about contraceptive magics somewhere in the past, so that problem they have solved (well for the rich anyway). However, if paternity were that easy to sort out I think the plots of a bunch of 'the honor of the Realm must be preserved!' tales would need a fixin'. Lol. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 00:01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
Aldrick/Markustay,
Funny stuff, Lol.
I know THO or Ed (or some combination of the two!) talked about contraceptive magics somewhere in the past, so that problem they have solved (well for the rich anyway). However, if paternity were that easy to sort out I think the plots of a bunch of 'the honor of the Realm must be preserved!' tales would need a fixin'. Lol.
Yeah, I know. This is how magic can sometimes screw up a story. ...but think about it. Just imagine all the amazing stuff a wizard can do with magic, and then it has to be asked why no wizard has come up with a spell to determine paternity, to determine whether or not a woman is pregnant, and magical abortion methods - well... it just seems improbable.
These types of things are even more important in day-to-day life and civilized culture than Fireballs and Magic Missiles.
And besides, it's the best logical way (that I can come up with, at least) to address the problems you bring up and still have the Realms be as sexually liberated for women as imagined. Really, in the real world one of the major reasons that women became so liberated was because of advancements in contraception - in particular birth control pills. It's hard to be liberated when you've got to constantly care for a screaming poop factory. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 00:10:34
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I also want to add that abortive methods of contraception for the poor would likely be some type of common natural herbs. When it comes to paternity claims, a father can likely lodge a petition with the ruling body or a local church. There would likely be a trial and the paternity determined via magic. If the husband isn't the baby's daddy, then it would likely result in harsh consequences for the woman. (Up to and including annulling the marriage.)
This would likely create a class situation between women - where more wealthy women are more sexually liberated and free (fewer consequences) than women who are poor (more consequences). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 01:27:53
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Which of course leads to more powerful Mages coming up with more powerful spells to obfuscate the truth and give false results in such situations.
And then there is the horror-potential for necromantic magic and aborted fetuses...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jun 2013 01:29:17 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2013 : 23:16:15
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I've always been under the impression that the herbs necessary to prevent conception (i.e. not "abortive," but "preventive") are quite common and widely used. And of course there are lots of ways to have sex without any chance of getting pregnant, and the Realms doesn't have a long-standing pseudo-religious tradition of frowning on those things.
Also, in a world where there is polymorphic magic (etc), I don't think fathers are really *necessary* to have children, but that's a pretty big discussion there.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 01:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I've always been under the impression that the herbs necessary to prevent conception (i.e. not "abortive," but "preventive") are quite common and widely used. And of course there are lots of ways to have sex without any chance of getting pregnant, and the Realms doesn't have a long-standing pseudo-religious tradition of frowning on those things.
Also, in a world where there is polymorphic magic (etc), I don't think fathers are really *necessary* to have children, but that's a pretty big discussion there.
Cheers
There are two posts that pop to my mind re: contraception. One is by someone else and the other is one I posted. Both have great information. Ed responded with some lore about herbs and other contraceptive methods in the Underdark on the second scroll:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2588
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16988
Your comment reminds me of a funny conversation one of the players in my home game had with a priest of Chauntea one of the very first times we played. Our group rolled into a tavern and said player was on the prowl for a good time. After some light flirting with the priest, she asked if he wanted to head upstairs. He said something about plowing her field, she said something about said "methods of having sex without any chance of getting pregnant," and he asked indignantly why someone would plow a field without planting seeds. Much laughter ensued. Both player and npc priest slept alone that night.
But yes, it does beg the question - how would a god/goddess of fertility, procreation, etc. feel about such things?
As for the second comment - In the case of fathering/mothering half-dragons, lore explicitly states that a dragon polymorphed (via a spell) cannot produce children. It only works if he (because only male dragons can impregnate human or demihuman females) has the innate polymorph ability.
I don't know if it's discussed somewhere else (it probably is), but that says to me that when you polymorph, you don't actually get all of "the plumbing," so to speak. So I'm inclined to think that magic doesn't actually allow for cutting cis-gendered men out of the equation.
That said, if it DOES work like that... why is it men that are no longer necessary? :P That street does work both ways... Perhaps it is women that become unnecessary to have children.
All joking aside, men and women doing the horizontal tango to have children in the Realms will continue to be the primary way children are begat for (at the very least) two reasons - it's cheaper than magic and people really like to have sex. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36792 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 01:47:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
Your comment reminds me of a funny conversation one of the players in my home game had with a priest of Chauntea one of the very first times we played. Our group rolled into a tavern and said player was on the prowl for a good time. After some light flirting with the priest, she asked if he wanted to head upstairs. He said something about plowing her field, she said something about said "methods of having sex without any chance of getting pregnant," and he asked indignantly why someone would plow a field without planting seeds. Much laughter ensued. Both player and npc priest slept alone that night.
But yes, it does beg the question - how would a god/goddess of fertility, procreation, etc. feel about such things?
It's not always the planting season.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 06:59:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
But yes, it does beg the question - how would a god/goddess of fertility, procreation, etc. feel about such things?
I honestly think this would depend on the deity. My feeling is that a deity such as Silvanus would be opposed to contraception because it disturbed the natural order of things. Basically, when you have sex you're supposed to have babies. ...of course, that doesn't mean you have to have procreative sex as Erik Scott de Bie points out. There are other animals in nature, aside from humans which engage in non-procreative sex so it is natural, and that would likely serve as "contraception" for those who worship Silvanus. However, using things that would prevent or stop pregnancy in procreative sex would likely be forbidden.
Then on the other extreme end, you have a deity like Shiallia who believes, as stated in the first line of her dogma, "The only true goal of any living thing is to procreate." Thus, I'd wager they'd have the same hang-ups as the faithful of Silvanus when it came to methods to prevent and end pregnancy (ending a pregnancy is likely one of the worst sins you could commit in the faith), and would strongly encourage procreative sex - perhaps even, to some degree depending on the sect, to the point of discouraging all other sexual acts. Basically taking the position that Every Sperm Is Sacred. (Lol, yay - Monty Python reference.)
I think Eldath, Lurue, Nobanion, and Mielikki would likely have the same view as Silvanus.
However, I think Malar and Talos would have a slightly different view. They'd both likely promote pregnancy in a similar way to Silvanus, however this is only to determine whether or not the child is worthy of life. Once born they'd likely pass judgement on the infant to determine whether or not it'll grow up to be strong and useful - if it appears weak, sickly, or frail - the priests / druids of Malar would likely leave it out in the woods somewhere for wild animals to kill and eat. The faithful of Talos may do something similar, leaving the infant exposed to the elements, and if the infant survives after a period of time then it would likely be taken back and be viewed as blessed or spared by Talos.
I think your view and Wooly's view are pretty spot on when it comes to Chauntea - at least for the Pastorals. The True Shapers no doubt lean more toward the point of view of Silvanus. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2013 : 23:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
As for the second comment - In the case of fathering/mothering half-dragons, lore explicitly states that a dragon polymorphed (via a spell) cannot produce children. It only works if he (because only male dragons can impregnate human or demihuman females) has the innate polymorph ability.
And what, dear lady, is this lore you speak of? And which edition does it hail from? And which sourcebook in that edition, which is bound to contradict a different sourcebook?
I jest, but it is important to keep in mind that when dealing with magic, nothing is a hard and fast rule, but only a guideline. There are always exceptions, misunderstandings, extraordinary circumstances, etc. Particularly when it comes to the creation of intricate and unusual racial backgrounds for PCs. 
quote:
I don't know if it's discussed somewhere else (it probably is), but that says to me that when you polymorph, you don't actually get all of "the plumbing," so to speak. So I'm inclined to think that magic doesn't actually allow for cutting cis-gendered men out of the equation.
And I see no reason to think that it doesn't. There are examples (not discussed openly on the page, but easy enough to read between the lines) of people changing biological sex by magic and helping to produce babies. If a man polymorphed woman were to become impregnated, then turned back into a man, what would happen to the fetus? Would he continue to carry it (and won't THAT be painful when the nine months are up?) or would it perish? Great fodder for stories right there.
quote:
That said, if it DOES work like that... why is it men that are no longer necessary? :P That street does work both ways... Perhaps it is women that become unnecessary to have children.
I didn't mean to imply that only men aren't necessary. I was merely observing that with magic, two people regardless of gender can probably produce a child between them. (Though there's the aforementioned painful man-birth thing. Makes me a little queasy just thinking about it.)
quote:
All joking aside, men and women doing the horizontal tango to have children in the Realms will continue to be the primary way children are begat for (at the very least) two reasons - it's cheaper than magic and people really like to have sex.
Absolutely.
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
But yes, it does beg the question - how would a god/goddess of fertility, procreation, etc. feel about such things?
I don't want to take away from the analysis, which is great and very interesting. But let's also keep in mind that this is a setting sprung from the *fertile* mind of Ed Greenwood. Do any of us really think he would create a deity--any deity--who would actually frown on sex of any kind for any reason?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2013 : 23:37:50
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* I will note that personally, I derive much of my info about racial marriage/sex traditions, sex magic, fertility, etc., from the 3e Book of Erotic Fantasy. Not a perfect source, nor Realms-specific, nor canonical, but one of if not *the* most frank discussion of the subjects you're like to find in a D&D sourcebook.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 17:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
As for the second comment - In the case of fathering/mothering half-dragons, lore explicitly states that a dragon polymorphed (via a spell) cannot produce children. It only works if he (because only male dragons can impregnate human or demihuman females) has the innate polymorph ability.
And what, dear lady, is this lore you speak of? And which edition does it hail from? And which sourcebook in that edition, which is bound to contradict a different sourcebook?
I jest, but it is important to keep in mind that when dealing with magic, nothing is a hard and fast rule, but only a guideline. There are always exceptions, misunderstandings, extraordinary circumstances, etc. Particularly when it comes to the creation of intricate and unusual racial backgrounds for PCs.
Of course! That's why I mention that at least in this case this is how polymorph doesn't work. I was hoping other people would pop in with specific examples that are either similar to or different from this certain case. The information to which I refer was originally in the Council of Wyrms Box Set and was later adapted by Roger E. Moore to the Forgotten Realms setting (among others) in the Dragon 206 article "Part Dragon, All Hero."
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
But yes, it does beg the question - how would a god/goddess of fertility, procreation, etc. feel about such things?
I don't want to take away from the analysis, which is great and very interesting. But let's also keep in mind that this is a setting sprung from the *fertile* mind of Ed Greenwood. Do any of us really think he would create a deity--any deity--who would actually frown on sex of any kind for any reason?
Cheers
Ah, yes, but there is a difference between frowning on sex and frowning on sex that blocks contraception. That's what I mean. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11803 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 22:20:35
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| you know, some of this does beg some other questions.... what happens if you ARE pregnant and you are polymorphed into a male? Is the child slain? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 23:00:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
you know, some of this does beg some other questions.... what happens if you ARE pregnant and you are polymorphed into a male? Is the child slain?
My opinion, male still with child. Birth would of course be harder. Better have a have good healer or magic user about, best to have both. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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marriage in the Realms
