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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2013 :  21:17:06  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A good point was made that has a significant impact on the discussion. What organisation (if any) is considered the prime candidate in regulating marriage.

If marriage is mostly a (verbal) contract between two families, ensuring a prosporous family can be had by the new pair? Then the engagement period is likely to be used by the pairs respective family elders to come to agreeable terms with eachother. Once the goods, provision and housing agreements are settled, the ceremony itself can be held at the most grand location one of the two families can muster. A priest will be involved if any of the families have close ties to a temple, but it would not be unknown to not have any holymen present at all.

If a particularly lawful aligned faerunian state feels obliged to regulate marriages (as a means of ensuring a population growth for example for more evil or amoral inclined states), they might also select a 'state marriage' clergy to oversee the welfare of new couples. Such an organisation would be tasked with ensuring the couple will be able to provide healthy new citizens, so their intentions need to be scrutinized afore they'll agree to make their state marriage contracts available. As common faerunian morals are quite liberal I would guess few request would be declined, even in tyrannic municipalties such as Zhentil Keep.

Most of these marriage regulating organisations would be actively encouraging marriages, as they'll likely be good sources of income. This way they can have a great influence in many layers of society as well. They can arrange alliances between houses in an explosive conlfict or cajole citizens into following their own certain ideal by limiting marriage contracts to fellow citizens or their own race. The ceremonies would need to be as public as possible, to flaunt the influence of the particular clergy or municipal organisation even more.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2013 :  03:51:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

With real life, marriages/weddings are intimately tied to a church and often a particular faith of the culture. I don't think this is the case at all in the Realms, and perhaps that's some of the difficulty in working out what they're like.


Actually, this is not correct. In the real-world (at least in the US; I imagine in many other countries, as well), marriage is a legal arrangement. It is often performed by clergy, but can be performed in a courthouse, on a ship at sea, by someone who gets ordained on the internet, etc. Many people, myself included, choose to get married in a church by a member of the clergy, but there is no requirement for that.

In the Realms, though, I don't recall reading about any marriages that didn't involve the clergy.

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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2013 :  22:16:14  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cultures without organized faiths have marriages, too. (In the real world) It might be a ceremony done between families without being officiated by a priest (or priest by any other name).
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2013 :  17:16:52  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

With real life, marriages/weddings are intimately tied to a church and often a particular faith of the culture. I don't think this is the case at all in the Realms, and perhaps that's some of the difficulty in working out what they're like.


Actually, this is not correct. In the real-world (at least in the US; I imagine in many other countries, as well), marriage is a legal arrangement. It is often performed by clergy, but can be performed in a courthouse, on a ship at sea, by someone who gets ordained on the internet, etc. Many people, myself included, choose to get married in a church by a member of the clergy, but there is no requirement for that.

In the Realms, though, I don't recall reading about any marriages that didn't involve the clergy.


In the modern real world, yes - marriage can be an entirely civil proceeding with no connection to any religion. I am completely aware that many people who get married have done so without any religious components involved.

But in the medieval world, marriage was intimately tied to religion.

You could perhaps make an argument that marriage wasn't specifically religious in Old Norse culture, but even then the head of a community or family (who often presided at the wedding) was also usually considered a godhi. Perhaps there is one, but I don't know of any culture where marriage was considered as something totally separate from religion.

My point was that in the real world, marriage is intimately tied to religion. Totally civil, non-religious marriages are a very modern thing, and still nowhere near as common as marriages tied to a religion.

In the Realms, I think the deep connection between marriage and religion isn't really there - partly because of polytheism and the diversity of faiths. This is important because a lot of things that go along with marriage in the real world do not necessarily "transfer" along with marriage. Real life religious marriage is one way to reinforce the patriarchal model, for example, or maintaining a strong faith within a family (and culture).

In the Realms, I don't think that a family would be expected (even by the gods) to all attend services of one particular faith together. Children would not be expected to attend a Sunday school, Temple, etc. Marriage in the modern world creates "pulls" for these kinds of things, because marriage is intimately tied to religion. Even with couples who aren't particularly religious, some of these effects are persistent and might cause one partner to pull the other back into church (maybe "just for holidays" at first).

Do you understand the main point I was trying to make?

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1277 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2013 :  17:50:19  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spellfire's wedding ceremony/marriage of Narm and Shandril might be an interesting insight to this, since it was written by Ed relatively early in the Realms lore. I don't remember much about it off the top of my head apart from the wedding night spent floating above Shadowdale thanks to "fly" spells.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2013 :  19:10:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

(snip)My point was that in the real world, marriage is intimately tied to religion. Totally civil, non-religious marriages are a very modern thing, and still nowhere near as common as marriages tied to a religion.

(snip)
Do you understand the main point I was trying to make?




Not really. Marriage can't be intimately tied to religion when there are non-religious ways to marry.

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2013 :  19:28:50  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Even in the past, there has always been a seperate system for the legal aspects of marriage as opposed to the faith-related side. While a wedding might well have been OFFICIATED by clergy, it was usually APPROVED by a government official of some sort for legality purposes. IE, it was STILL a contract.

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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2013 :  19:34:41  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Religion permeates human society. Even if its not part of a religious ceremony it is spiritual. Buddhists and confucists don't believe in gods but obviously have marriage ceremonies. I think in the realms almost everyone would involve deities in their marriage ceremonies since the gods can do good things for you or bad things to you. Beshaba WILL curse you with bad luck if you don't invite her, etc.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2013 :  19:51:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

Religion permeates human society. Even if its not part of a religious ceremony it is spiritual. Buddhists and confucists don't believe in gods but obviously have marriage ceremonies. I think in the realms almost everyone would involve deities in their marriage ceremonies since the gods can do good things for you or bad things to you. Beshaba WILL curse you with bad luck if you don't invite her, etc.



I very much agree that in the Realms, you'd not find non-religious marriage ceremonies. I don't know of anything supporting the idea of non-religious marriages in the Realms.

I was simply contesting the statement that in the real world, marriage could not be divorced () from religion.

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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2013 :  21:45:41  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not really.


Of course not.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2013 :  22:05:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not really.


Of course not.




Ah, so you agree that you can't claim an intimate connection between two things when one can clearly exist without the other. Glad we cleared that up.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Apr 2013 22:16:55
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1277 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2013 :  23:23:49  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


I very much agree that in the Realms, you'd not find non-religious marriage ceremonies. I don't know of anything supporting the idea of non-religious marriages in the Realms.




Sorry, going back to "Spellfire", while Rathan was the priest of the ceremony, Mourngrym was officiating as Lord of Shadowdale and not as a priest, joined Shan and Narm by cutting the back of their hands with a dagger and then joining their wounds (and weirdly, kissing the blade afterwards). The people of the dale (A good woman and a good man of the dale, and the Lord of the Dale) were asked if the union should happen.

I don't know that religion would *always* be a part of a wedding in the realms. There were many civil, non-religious elements to the wedding of those two, anyway. It doesn't seem like Tymora was the key element of this one, although Rathan did perform the ceremony.

Just my thoughts. I could see a wedding happening under need if a priest was not present without religion being involved in the Realms (eg pregnancy?) with just the local Lord and citizens present. But Ed would be able to answer this!
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2013 :  00:01:35  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, marriage isn't necessarily legal at all in many places in the realm. That is a more recent invention. Do you really think Rashemen has records like that of any kind? Or in anywhere else records like that for commoners/peasants/etc. ?
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2013 :  00:59:31  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not really.


Of course not.




Ah, so you agree that you can't claim an intimate connection between two things when one can clearly exist without the other. Glad we cleared that up.


We are not in agreement. You believe your faulty argument, that's all.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2013 :  04:22:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not really.


Of course not.




Ah, so you agree that you can't claim an intimate connection between two things when one can clearly exist without the other. Glad we cleared that up.


We are not in agreement. You believe your faulty argument, that's all.




So it's faulty to point out that the existence of non-religious marriages proves that marriages aren't always religious? If using verifiable fact to disprove a statement is faulty, I'm afraid a lot of people have a lot to learn about logic.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2013 :  17:52:51  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't thik marriages are necessarily religious or spiritual. And comparing the Realms to the medieval era in our world isn't necessarily that helpful. In those days, most people in Europe believed in a single god, who was universally recognized as overseeing marriages. In the Realms, we have hundreds of different gods who may or may not be in conflict with each other.

It comes down to what a marriage *is*. If we're talking about a divine covenant between two people, then yes, it's intrinsically spiritual/religious. If we're talking about a legal agreement, then it may or may not be a spiritual/religious thing. If (at its most fundamental level) it's simply an agreement of alliance (formal or not) between two (or more) people, then it may or may not consider religion or law.

What we really should do is embrace the concept of "marriage" meaning multiple things. And it may have radically different interpretations in the various realms.

Also, what is expected of a marriage in different regions? I'm sure some lands (such as Cormyr) are similar to how marriage is generally regarded in our world: sexual fidelity, financial alliance, (probably) living together, etc. But what about marriage in Rashemen or Aglarond? Do they have all the same traditional expectations? We're looking at different legal structures and/or different deities--they aren't all as homogeneous as medieval Europe because they don't have the same extended royal family and church overseeing them.

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'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
704 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2013 :  18:13:24  Show Profile  Visit EytanBernstein's Homepage Send EytanBernstein a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There have been a lot of societies in history (real world) that have less formal versions of marriage. If two individuals declared themselves married, they were considered married in some cultures. In others, a man (or woman) might just as permission from the patriarch/matriarch to form a union (or of the chief of a tribal or similar unit).

Sometimes, this was just a matter of a man saying that a woman was his (or a woman doing the same with a man), so others would leave him/her alone.

Other times, it might have simply been that when people consummated a relationship, they were considered married. It didn't necessarily have the contractual obligations and formality that western marriage has today.

Of course, there were other societies that had dowries, in which the family of one side gives the other side some sort of compensation (typically livestock, but also valuable goods or money). Ofentimes, dowry-using cultures were polygamous, though not always.

There have been societies in history which recognized both formal and informal same-sex unions. Sometimes, this took the form of a mentor role (as in samurai) or something like blood brothers (as in Spartans). In some societies, such unions were viewed as superior. There are other societies that had formalized places for "alternative" (for lack of a better term) sexuality and gender roles, such as the Two Spirit people of many Native American cultures.

I guess what I'm getting at is that marriage throughout real world history is just as complex and varied as it is (and should be) in the Realms. I can see certain religions formalizing marriages, but in other cultures, it might be as simple as two people claiming each other ("hands off my man/woman!").

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11774 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2013 :  22:24:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good topic Eltheron. Digging into specific gods is probably one good way to look at it, because celebration is part of weddings and religions love to join in on community celebrations. Also, because religion and ritual go hand in hand, I can see religion and marriage still being closely intertwined in the realms. However, I don't see people only being willing to be married by a priest of a certain sect like we have here, nor any issues of two people having to be the same religion. What I do see is that "female" tendency religions are probably more likely to be conducting the rituals, because the males will be more likely to be working and less likely to want to be picky about the wedding (similar to here.... the guys says "whatever makes you happy", though he may or may not veto things based on cost).

I can see Lathanderites considering marriage a "new beginning" and as a result, those that follow that religion are probably more inclined towards marriage. I see such rituals as being performed as part of a dawn ritual/celebration. The decorations themselves would probably be very much like what we see at American weddings (i.e. lots of pink/purple/rose red flowers, cloth, etc....). I can even see a ritual where they throw bird seed at the people.... because they probably have peacocks to eat it at the ritual (peacocks provided by the church as a holy animal that they probably have). Lathanderite priests probably perform marriages for free (to a point), considering it a devotion to their deity.
Sune's followers probably also mirror the Lathanderite churches weddings. One thing I think would be interesting though would be if Sune's weddings had a requirement of the bridesmaids and groomsmen. Perhaps they are required to go on a date and seek love (basically the bride and groom play hookup with all their friends). Sunites probably perform marriages for free and probably consider it such a part of their church that they have some standard "staples" of decorations that they can provide at a moment's notice. Grooming services for the bride and groom prior to the wedding would definitely be provided (i.e. making people look beautiful). However, anything outside these standard staples, the people would probably have to provide.
Chauntea's followers probably have similar weddings like the Lathanderites. However, instead of roses, perhaps its performed in a gazebo that has vines growing on it that has flowering agriculture (thinking grape vines, muscodine vines, blackberry vines, etc...). Also, like the idea of the sword tunnel.... a scythe tunnel or a pitchfork tunnel (either with normal or decorative implements... the church may keep decorative ones on hand... in fact, they may even be magical). I think interlocked pitchforks would be safer. Chauntean priests probably perform marriages for free (they are planting the seeds of love in hopes of planting the seeds of a new life).

Lliira's followers would focus slightly less on the wedding and more on the party afterwards. Dancing would definitely be a part of a Lliiran wedding. In fact, the wedding ritual itself may be performed as some sort of dance/song. Other than that, much like the Sunite's wedding.

Milil's weddings would probably involve a ritual performed to song. The audience probably has to sing to portions of it, with the bride and groom responding. There's probably also a Chorus who sings the "harder to remember" parts so that the audience can just sing simple stuff.

Deneiran weddings might include a poetry reading... or maybe even a play in which bride/groom/bridesmaids/groomsmen/parents all interact. If it were a play, obviously the bride and groom are the heros. This could be interesting with different temples having different scripts to choose from. The church may help out with the props.

Mystra's followers probably have weddings that are rich in blues, silvers, and golds. They probably also feature a lot of obvious illusions (but which are pretty to behold). The clergy probably provide such magics as they can for free. There may also be mages who cast magic to entertain the attendees afterward or before the wedding ritual. They may also do some simple showmanship things like using levitate on the bride/groom/priest. The Mystran temple weddings probably vary wildly from temple to temple and even possibly priest to priest. However, unlike some of the other religions, I don't see Mystran priests necessarily doing it all for free. If they think it may get them a new adherent, then its likely they'd do it for free, but other than that I'm betting the wedding would be as lavish as you can pay for.

Tyr's weddings probably involve marriage contracts which very formally detail the responsibilities of the two individuals towards one another. It probably has some wordage to help handle common disputes in a marriage. The ritual is probably very much like a Catholic ritual with people performing functions and saying certain phrases in response to hymns, etc... It also probably contains a point where the man puts his fist in the woman's mouth while he puts a necklace around her neck.

Waukeen's weddings are probably much like a Tyrran one, but with more details in the contract and a lot more extravagance. The party afterwards would involve a lot of schmoozing with business associates. The exchange of rings would be definitely a part of their ceremony, with the size of the gem being of importance

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11774 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2013 :  22:34:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and as to how might things differ in Rashemen.... that's a good question. In Rashemen the wedding ritual would definitely be in the name of the Three Goddesses, Bhalla, Khelliara, and the Hidden One. Therefore, there may be three presiding priestesses (one old, one middle aged, and one young) to give their blessing. I can see a wychlaran overseeing it. It might be that the bride and groom get to wear the "special wedding masks" and they finally "reveal" themselves to the audience upon being pronounced man and wife. Also, for some reason, I want to stick the groom getting a tattoo in there, along with the wife donning a fur shawl/hat/coat provided by the husband (possibly with antlers, ears, face still on it). They might then recieve the blessings of the spirits in the form of a telthor accepting food from them or something (picturing feeding a handful of corn to a ghostly buck for some reason).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11774 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2013 :  22:36:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing I'm not seeing brought up... Honeymoons. Not sure where to go with them in the realms... not sure that this would be a tradition or not.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2013 :  22:55:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One thing I'm not seeing brought up... Honeymoons. Not sure where to go with them in the realms... not sure that this would be a tradition or not.



According to legend, the honeymoon was connected to having to win/steal your bride from elsewhere. I'd expect that this is not practiced in most areas of the Realms.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2013 :  01:52:58  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One thing I'm not seeing brought up... Honeymoons. Not sure where to go with them in the realms... not sure that this would be a tradition or not.



According to legend, the honeymoon was connected to having to win/steal your bride from elsewhere. I'd expect that this is not practiced in most areas of the Realms.

And I've got a pending query for Ed on this... and whether there might be any similarly themed ritual in the Realms. As I recall, I don't think he's answered back yet.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11774 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2013 :  14:08:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One thing I'm not seeing brought up... Honeymoons. Not sure where to go with them in the realms... not sure that this would be a tradition or not.



According to legend, the honeymoon was connected to having to win/steal your bride from elsewhere. I'd expect that this is not practiced in most areas of the Realms.



Ah, so if it were, it would probably be amongst tribal type cultures that roam most likely (gypsy-ish or desert nomad-ish types.... maybe people who live on the plains too). So more likely it would fit in with the southern realms (Calimshan, the Shaar, and possibly someplace like Dambrath where the women might kidnap a man (though in Dambrath I don't see it for a lasting marriage as much as sowing of wild oats)?). It might fit in well with any culture that has a strong worship of Mask (say Westgate).

You know what might make an interesting twist to this? Maybe the people are allowed to shirk their "duties" until they are found by the people that they are responsible to. In most cases, it might be that people normally let the new lovers have a day or two head start before they even start looking. It might be considered a point of pride to not get caught and return on one's own (as many will likely find themselves without coin within a week or two), maybe to be rewarded with some kind of prize fund (provided by the parents of both sides). For lowborn people, it wouldn't be much money so the chase wouldn't be hard, and probably the money would be seen as providing a good start to their life together. However, maybe for a newly married prince this money is rather huge... maybe more than the father of the bride can really afford... so he sends out feelers amongst the common people... offering simple silver for sightings of the prince and his bride that pan out. The prince may meanwhile pay people to send back false information. A party of adventurers may just get hired to find the prince and his bride, which could be a nice, lighthearted adventure if someone were to want to run it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11774 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2013 :  14:22:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hmmm, on the above idea with the fund provided to honeymooners that don't get found... maybe the longer they stay uncaught, the larger the fund grows. This would make even a king want to find his son quickly. Again, for lowborn people, this may make them save their pennies before a wedding so that they can stay away longer. For a prince, this might make him seek a simple life where he's less likely to get caught.

There might also be some rules that are magically enforced by say some kind of bracelet (perhaps the bracelet dissolves if they leave the bounds of the kingdom or a certain distance from the wedding hall, etc.... ). Nothing where the magic is monitoring them, more like the magic holding it together only has a certain range. Whatever is fueling this "bracelet" might also be keeping track of the time and if the "bracelet" dissolves then the clock stops (this way a king might know that his son might be in desperate straits since he's left the kingdom).

Hmmm, this idea with the prince / king also brings out another idea. What if someone were to take advantage of this lack of personal guards (though the prince might take his most loyal with him) to try to kill the heir? Hell, this general idea works with merchant princes as well.

Oh, and the more I think on it, this would be a perfect Leiran wedding tradition for Nimbral.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11774 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2013 :  14:33:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can't get the idea out of my mind. So maybe the parents, in an attempt to lessen their expenditure afterward, attempt to encourage the son/daughter into great extravagance for the wedding (in order to empty the newlywed's pockets). Those that are extremely thrifty with their weddings may actually be picked on by their friends as a result (oh... you're not springing for an open bar? Wait till I see you on the streets and I report back to your Dad. Of course, if you just cover my drinks....). Thus, the bridge/groom need to be delicate with how simple or elegant of a wedding they have. Those who go all out on the other hand may have friends who join in the game and specifically mislead the parents, provide a place to stay, etc....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2013 :  21:49:13  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So it's faulty to point out that the existence of non-religious marriages proves that marriages aren't always religious? If using verifiable fact to disprove a statement is faulty, I'm afraid a lot of people have a lot to learn about logic.


I find it interesting that a moderator has chosen to be snarky and troll this thread along a tangent, especially considering that they are the ones who misinterpreted what was said and then decided to not only make a big issue out of it but be rude and condescending (e.g., "[you] have a lot to learn about logic").

For clarity: I never said that "marriages are always religious." I said that marriages have typically been intimately tied to religious traditions and/or churches. I further attempted to clarify this, and yet you chose to remain tangential and snarky.

If you cannot treat me in a civil manner, I suggest that you retire from the thread.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2013 :  22:01:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So it's faulty to point out that the existence of non-religious marriages proves that marriages aren't always religious? If using verifiable fact to disprove a statement is faulty, I'm afraid a lot of people have a lot to learn about logic.


I find it interesting that a moderator has chosen to be snarky and troll this thread along a tangent, especially considering that they are the ones who misinterpreted what was said and then decided to not only make a big issue out of it but be rude and condescending (e.g., "[you] have a lot to learn about logic").

For clarity: I never said that "marriages are always religious." I said that marriages have typically been intimately tied to religious traditions and/or churches. I further attempted to clarify this, and yet you chose to remain tangential and snarky.

If you cannot treat me in a civil manner, I suggest that you retire from the thread.





Your exact words:

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

With real life, marriages/weddings are intimately tied to a church and often a particular faith of the culture.


I contested that by pointing out the existence of marriages that have nothing to do with religion. You called me using facts to counter your statement "faulty".

In debate, it is SOP to refute points with facts whenever possible. You called my use of facts to counter your point faulty, so you obviously have a different view of logic. I fail to see how pointing this out is snarky.

You arguing about it was what lead to the tangent. I would be more than content to let the side-topic be, but I will not have my factual counter to your exact words called into question.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2013 :  22:03:04  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I don't thik marriages are necessarily religious or spiritual.

I agree, they don't have to be. But in Western society, most people (again, I'm not saying all) tend to package marriage with a strong religious "package," which could include a particular church, faith, or simply "needing" it performed by a minister or other church official.

quote:
And comparing the Realms to the medieval era in our world isn't necessarily that helpful. In those days, most people in Europe believed in a single god, who was universally recognized as overseeing marriages. In the Realms, we have hundreds of different gods who may or may not be in conflict with each other.

Again, I agree. But the Realms does have a lot of strong medieval (or Renaissance) themes that are hard to ignore. And many Realms players like that quality.

One thing that is important (and Ed has said so himself), most Realms citizens do have a patron deity - even if they DO worship the whole pantheon. With Realms marriages, I think there's more of a disconnect between religion and marriage, so it wouldn't be necessary to have your patron deity's church perform the marriage (unless you really wanted that particular blessing).

quote:
It comes down to what a marriage *is*. If we're talking about a divine covenant between two people, then yes, it's intrinsically spiritual/religious. If we're talking about a legal agreement, then it may or may not be a spiritual/religious thing. If (at its most fundamental level) it's simply an agreement of alliance (formal or not) between two (or more) people, then it may or may not consider religion or law.

What we really should do is embrace the concept of "marriage" meaning multiple things. And it may have radically different interpretations in the various realms.

I think that advice would be really wise for the modern world, not just the Realms.

For commoners, they might never need the legal side of marriage to come into play unless they have a lot of property - and I suspect that there wouldn't be a lot of rules or legal demands on splitting property anyway (unless you were rich or noble, in which case you'd have probably spelled out property issues in the marriage contract... just a guess, though).

quote:
Also, what is expected of a marriage in different regions? I'm sure some lands (such as Cormyr) are similar to how marriage is generally regarded in our world: sexual fidelity, financial alliance, (probably) living together, etc. But what about marriage in Rashemen or Aglarond? Do they have all the same traditional expectations? We're looking at different legal structures and/or different deities--they aren't all as homogeneous as medieval Europe because they don't have the same extended royal family and church overseeing them.

Cormyr definitely seems the closest to our Western perceptions, to be sure. In many ways, it's also the closest thing to an English or French monarchy also - so it's inherently familiar to us.

Rashemen, that one is very interesting to speculate on. Perhaps something similar to pagan Russia, before Russia existed? Yet at the same time, Rashemen seems to have a partially Norse/Viking feel in some ways.

Aglarond, I really have no idea.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2013 :  22:08:57  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Good topic Eltheron. Digging into specific gods is probably one good way to look at it, because celebration is part of weddings and religions love to join in on community celebrations. Also, because religion and ritual go hand in hand, I can see religion and marriage still being closely intertwined in the realms. However, I don't see people only being willing to be married by a priest of a certain sect like we have here, nor any issues of two people having to be the same religion. What I do see is that "female" tendency religions are probably more likely to be conducting the rituals, because the males will be more likely to be working and less likely to want to be picky about the wedding (similar to here.... the guys says "whatever makes you happy", though he may or may not veto things based on cost).

Interesting, I hadn't thought of things quite this way. The female Realms gods do tend (on average) to be more interested or concerned with hearth, home, personal presentation, all of those things.

Also, I love your ideas on each deity/church's approach. Great stuff!

And honeymoons! For our modern real world, honeymoons seem to have been derived from an old Nordic tradition of giving out honey-mead to newly married couples.

I can imagine ALL kinds of fun "escape"/party traditions for different faiths.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2013 :  22:20:31  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

...but I will not have my factual counter to your exact words called into question.


Good bloody grief. You obviously do not understand, and you continue to misinterpret what I said.

I said that marriages are intimately tied to religion/churches of a particular culture.

This is NOT the same thing as saying that marriages require religion or a church's input.

You are getting caught up in YOUR OWN interpretation of what was said, despite my attempts at clarification. It's a rude, authoritarian style that you're engaging in, and this discussion is worse because you insist on being "right" regardless of your original misunderstanding.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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