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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 07:37:45
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...more than one temple to the same deity?
It occurred to me that it seems like there's always just one temple/shrine/what have you to a given deity in every major city writeup for the Realms.
Shouldn't there be, say, three or four temples and several more shrines to Mystra in Waterdeep, for example? Or to Tymora in Arabel?
Doesn't the 1:1 ratio seem odd (assuming of course that I'm not misremembering)?
Or is there an in-Realms explanation that I've missed?
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 08:04:07
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| There was actually a fairly lengthy thread about this subject not too long ago. I don't think any sort of consensus was reached, though. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1879 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 08:14:19
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| I always looked at it as the 'major' temple being listed with the assumption that there were other (smaller) churches to them. I generally assume that all religions are represented regardless of what official write-ups state (unless the city/region practices religious persecution or the community in question is very small). I sometimes get the impression that certain deities are the 'patrons' of a given city (much as Athena was in ancient Athens). Tymore/Arabel is an example of this to me. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 09:11:57
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| Depending on the time period, there were two holy sites to Bane in Zhentil Keep. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 13:42:20
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Given that Thay tolerates no religion except Bane and given the sheer size of the realm, there's probably at least one Banite temple in every tharch. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:12:22
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I'm thinking a city the size of Waterdeep would have multiple temples to at least the 'good' deities, but I couldn't name any off-hand. Some of the (ancient) cities in the Old Empires are vast metropolises, so the same should definitely apply to them (using their own pantheons). There would just be way too many worshipers for one temple to any god or pantheon to suffice in a city that large.
This would be a great question to poise to Ed (maybe not naming specific temples, but just the general 'rule of thumb' in regards to most FR urban centers). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2013 14:40:03 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:22:50
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Sembia's relatively big too, and given the faith of its "true" rulers, there's likely a temple of Shar in every city. Selgaunt already has one. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:47:41
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| Calimport is described as having multiple temples to many deities such as Waukeen, Azuth and so forth. In a world without mass transportation people in a city would want temples and shrines they could access. I always assumed there were generally more temples than described even in places like Bezantur where tons were identified. I also assume many homes contain family shrines, idols, icons, etc. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 16:08:44
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Thank you all.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 16:09:25
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| Given competition for resources, I'd expect most cities would have one large temple, and several shrines or small chapels. I'd further expect that in most cases, all of these lesser places of worship would be connected to the main temple -- kinda like using ATMs instead of going to the bank. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 16:34:16
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Well, as I said in the last thread on this topic, I use real world cities as something of a guide on this, based on my own experiences and estimations.
Villages of a few hundred to a couple thousand people will have somewhere between half a dozen to a dozen small churches. Cities of 5-15 thousand will have half a dozen decent sized temples with dozens of smaller chapels. Cities above that will have hundreds of churches of various sizes.
As for whether or not all the churches are connected, in my own game I tend to say that some are and some aren't. I like to play that the faiths in fantasy religions are about as fractured and varied as real-life ones, and I feel there's enough official information backing me up on that to say with some certainty. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 17:26:18
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| Real world medieval cities would also only have had 1-3 religions of one god. A fantasy setting with different denominations or sects of a deity might be even more diverse. However, in a world with monsters and magic defending a temple would be more complex. If worshipers of Cyric might summon demons to destroy a temple of Bane it would make sense to pool resources into one temple to defend it. In the real world I think people in a place would be more likely to respect the sanctity of a holy place and not have to defend them as much. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 18:25:04
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I personally think there would be one main temple, and then branch locations for worship (sticking with the bank analogy). Because if you have a bunch of people in the same area, worshipping the same deity in the same fashion, then multiple temples would need to compete against each other for the resources of worship and gold. Defending the temple may or may not be a factor, as well.
Having a main branch means that all worshippers of Lathander (for example) are worshipping at and donating at one temple. That temple could support smaller chapels and shrines, but all of that money would still funnel into one common pool.
Competing temples of the same deity would be fighting for the same worshippers and the same gold. Money spent trying to compete with each other is not necessarily advancing the deity's goals. And most deities are not going to be cool with their followers working against each other instead of working towards the deity's goals.
Without denominations being a factor (since we don't have much in the line of denominations in published Realmslore), there is no reason for one group of worshippers to compete against an identical group in the same vicinity. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 18:36:43
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Well, I work under the assumption that they don't all worship the same deity in the same fashion.
I personally believe denominations do exist in the realms and in most fantasy settings(and if they don't, I'll houserule them in). I think it's human(oid) nature to divide and compete, and even working under the assumption that the deity in question is speaking directly to the clergy, each of those clergymen will take something different away from what their god told them.
There is some official lore to back me up on this- not all of it realms specific, mind you, but it's there. I don't think it receives a lot of attention because unless your campaign is focused on church politics, it doesn't matter that much; it's simpler to say "worshipers of this god worship this way", not to give a realistic view of the faith but to give dm's a quick template for the temple they want to drop in their town. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 20:50:33
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| Given competition from other deities, and the fact that the deities of the Realms are willing and able to say "no, worship me this way!" I see little reason to assume the presence of multiple denominations within a small area. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 01:35:41
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| The Gods either are not or cannot be so blatant with their desires, get misinterpreted, accept multiple ways of worshiping them, and so forth... Gods do not seem to very often appear directly to tell their worshipers what to do. They commuicate through omens, via communion, and so forth - which are all fallible. A deity may also accept multiple ways of worship them, such as Chauntea having civilized clergy and wild clergy. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 02:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
...more than one temple to the same deity?
It occurred to me that it seems like there's always just one temple/shrine/what have you to a given deity in every major city writeup for the Realms.
Shouldn't there be, say, three or four temples and several more shrines to Mystra in Waterdeep, for example? Or to Tymora in Arabel?
Doesn't the 1:1 ratio seem odd (assuming of course that I'm not misremembering)?
Or is there an in-Realms explanation that I've missed?
I've got a pending query with Ed that kind of touches on this -- specifically focusing on how the relationship between a church's power/prominence with a particular city's ruling class might translate into having more than one centre for worship located within the city limits. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 04:36:16
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The Gods either are not or cannot be so blatant with their desires, get misinterpreted, accept multiple ways of worshiping them, and so forth... Gods do not seem to very often appear directly to tell their worshipers what to do. They commuicate through omens, via communion, and so forth - which are all fallible. A deity may also accept multiple ways of worship them, such as Chauntea having civilized clergy and wild clergy.
Actually, it's canon that the gods have multiple ways of communicating with their faithful, and nothing says they show restraint in doing so. It may not be so blatant as an email, but if someone is doing something their deity doesn't agree with, at some point the deity is going to get the message to them. Omens, manifestations, servitors, limiting/stripping spells, etc.
And I'm not saying that a deity won't allow differing forms of worship -- just that you won't find multiple ways of worship in the same community. Your Chauntean priests, for example, aren't going to be next-door neighbors. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 04:51:46
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I want to say it was in The Pirate King, but I could be mistaken, but there was an instance of two rival and hostile sects of Malar living in the same community of only a few dozen people, being constantly at each other's throats.
Granted, Malar's a deity inclined to encourage such conflict, but that's evidence that it can and does happen. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 05:35:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've got a pending query with Ed that kind of touches on this -- specifically focusing on how the relationship between a church's power/prominence with a particular city's ruling class might translate into having more than one centre for worship located within the city limits.
That's one I hope gets answered soon.
To me it makes more sense if there's conflict, disagreement, backstabbing or simple "I'll go my way, you go yours" attitudes, at least for some churches or in some cities that favor a given faith.
More variety that way too.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 03:20:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Given that Thay tolerates no religion except Bane and given the sheer size of the realm, there's probably at least one Banite temple in every tharch.
And Kossuth. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 03:43:07
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As for Thay only allowing Bane and Kossuth...that is out of my range of the Realms...when/where I play there are temples to numerous gods in Thay.
As for different branches within the same church, I've read numerous examples that a church in one town might be very different from another town.
Then there are things like the Risen Sun Heresy...the Bane schism that brought Fzoul to power in Zhentil Keep...the Chauntea/Earth Mother deal...
I think there is plenty of room in the Forgotten Realms for lots of variation...though Lawful Gods might have a more strict view than other gods.
EDIT:
To answer the question...Zhentil Keep was an excellent example of the same God being worshiped by two opposing church groups. Bane is the most ironic god to me: Lord of Strife, but Lawful Evil! lol
I can't recall the city, but I KNOW I read one that had two opposed (maybe even enemy) sects of Tempus.
I can't remember any more right now...sorry. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 15 Mar 2013 03:45:58 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 06:38:46
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Bezantur is called the City of a Thousand Temples
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 15:05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Given that Thay tolerates no religion except Bane and given the sheer size of the realm, there's probably at least one Banite temple in every tharch.
And Kossuth.
Unlikely. Unless Kossuth has forgiven Szass Tam for what he did to his priests during the Civil War. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 17:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Bezantur is called the City of a Thousand Temples
I'm sure that's just a nickname. I think it's highly unlikely that the city has even a hundred temples... To have a thousand temples, a city would have to have a handful of temples for every single deity in the Realms -- or dozens for the prominent deities, and 2 or 3 each for less prominent ones. |
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In what Realms city can you find...
