| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 15:27:37
|
From another thread, me and the Masked Mage by chatting have given this idea which I have potential.
The Netherese of Thultanthar have discovered Selunarra, the only other continious Netherese Enclave. Which just happens to worship Selune and at least Mystryl/Mystra.
Telamont is a Netheril risen first mindset, and wants to align with them. His son Rivalen is Shar first minset and wants to kill the Selunarran.
So a civil war breaks out.
However, Telamont is likely to have continuency plans for if any of the shades or even his sons were to turn against him. Geas, death spells, and so on.
Rivalen has the force of Shar and all of her divine power with him.
What would be the possible effects of this? Would it make a good adventure/Campaign? Would a similar civil war be brewing on Selunarra? How would the rest of the world react? The gods?
|
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 15:42:07
|
To quote myself:
quote:
Telamont doesn't tolerate disobedience. However, given the current situation---Brennus's undying determination to kill Rivalen no matter the cost---one way or another, he himself would have to pick a side. It's fair to assume he'd make good with his promise to Brennus that if he told his brothers of Rivalen's matricide, Telamont would kill him himself. But Brennus had always been Alashar's favorite, and it's possible that through Brennus, Telamont sees his late wife, whom he truly loved. Or all of that wouldn't matter, if what Telamont really cares about is rebuilding Netheril and conquering the world. But is it really the only thing he cares about? Is he as cold-blooded as he lets people think him to be?
Foxhelm, you're right. Telamont might seek Shar's protection against enemies he himself might have great trouble dealing with. But Shar for him has always been just a means, and never a goal in itself. Unlike his son Rivalen, whose goal is Shar. True, he once was able to reconcile his duties as a prince and as a Nightseer by stopping the Shadowstorm, but how long can he keep it up? Someday, one of those dual responsibilities would require to be chosen over the other. And which of the two will he choose? Well, I suppose his matricide already speaks for itself.
Furthermore, let's examine this: Telamont allowed Rivalen to subsume Volumvax's divine essence, practically making him a demigod. Why would he allow such boost of power to his son, whose foremost loyalty to the empire is only second to that of his goddess? I believe he has contingency plans, as most archwizards in their right minds always have. Civil War is the last thing he needs. It's counter-productive to his goals.
Lastly, remember that Telamont himself said that he knows exactly everything that happens in Shade. So whatever his sons are planning, before any words of a Civil War could escape their lips, he'd know. |
Every beginning has an end. |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 15:50:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Lastly, remember that Telamont himself said that he knows exactly everything that happens in Shade. So whatever his sons are planning, before any words of a Civil War could escape their lips, he'd know.
Unless, of course, he said that just to make his sons think he knew their plans. There is simply no way he could know everything that happens in Shade.
There is also the possibility that any plans made towards a civil war could be made elsewhere, and simply not discussed while in Shade. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 16:04:53
|
Remember all Archmages worth their salt, especially evil ones, are developing plans for when things do not go their way.
Just as all gods develop multiple means of resurrection if they are smart from day one.
Telamont is likely to have spent two thousand years developing plans and counterplans for all attacks. Be it from his rivals, friends or even family.
Of course, his sons are likely to do the same as well as plans to take their father's throne if needed. Then fight their brother's claim to the same throne.
Which is why I see it as a cold war, at least at first. As Princes and Father try to build alliances, weapons, defenses, information, magic/technology and so on. Preparing for the moment when the spell heard round the Enclave is fired, and a hot war breaks out. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 16:07:04
|
This brings up a problem with 4th E as I see it. For some reason the writers decided that all gods choose important servants and devote themselves to them. This made sense for Mystra with her chosen and Magister for round about reasons, but for most gods this would not be the case.
In my book, Shar could not care less about Rivalen, even if he is her "chosen." Its simply not in her nature. I'd make the same argument for Bane and Fzoul as well.
What's more, Rivalen has repeatedly failed her. The confrontation with Mask and the Shadowstorm is just one example. Why would she risk her power or future plans on him? She has larger concerns.
In general I think a Shade civil war is entirely unlikely, though a fight between the brothers over their mother is possible, and would be decided quickly. (In my imagination Brennus wins and then gets killed by Telamont as punishment... this is only because I always thought Rivalen was something of a tool in the books). |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 16:07:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Lastly, remember that Telamont himself said that he knows exactly everything that happens in Shade. So whatever his sons are planning, before any words of a Civil War could escape their lips, he'd know.
Unless, of course, he said that just to make his sons think he knew their plans. There is simply no way he could know everything that happens in Shade.
The whole enclave is suffused with shadowstuff that answers to him. If he says "show me this, and that," he'd be able to do so. That's why he knew immediately that Brennus made a mistake of summoning Mephistopheles.
quote:
There is also the possibility that any plans made towards a civil war could be made elsewhere, and simply not discussed while in Shade.
True, but Telamont keeps tabs on his sons wherever they go. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 17:10:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'd make the same argument for Bane and Fzoul as well.
Then why did Bane resurrect Fzoul and made him again his Chosen and gave him power beyond that? Think again on that.
I could see a civil war in the Empire of Shade for one simple fact. Shar allows it to happen. She stands for loss. The loss of control over his empire would hit Telamont hard, yet it is perfectly within Shars will. But before that happens i can see Selunarra with order from Selune act against Thultanthar to battle her sisters mightiest tools. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 17:50:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'd make the same argument for Bane and Fzoul as well.
Then why did Bane resurrect Fzoul and made him again his Chosen and gave him power beyond that? Think again on that.
Because it was WOC doing their solid best to screw up the Realms by taking something and trying to make it into something else. When Bane inhabited Fzoul during the time of troubles it was as a punishment for lack of loyalty. The Rise of the Tyrant was bad enough, but at least it was an interesting idea. 4th E took Fzoul and his connection to the Tyrant Gods (and basically every other interesting divine relationship in the realms) and destroyed it. Whole pantheons messed up to shove a square peg into a round hole. |
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 18:05:57
|
| We can argue about the writing on Bane done in the past but it is still the fact that Fzoul was his most powerfull tool in the Realms and still is right next to Szass Tam, but that is a whole differant matter and would derail the topic. While i agree with you that 4e screwed alot things over, i do not see it as proof that Bane could care less about Fzoul. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 18:16:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
We can argue about the writing on Bane done in the past but it is still the fact that Fzoul was his most powerfull tool in the Realms and still is right next to Szass Tam, but that is a whole differant matter and would derail the topic. While i agree with you that 4e screwed alot things over, i do not see it as proof that Bane could care less about Fzoul.
Look at it this way, Fzoul is not at all loyal to Bane. He "worships" anyone who offers more power. Is that who you'd want being your primary mortal follower. Any god (of proper alignment) could come along and be like, hey Fzoul, be my right hand man and he'd be all about it. If I was another evil god, say Shar (just for example), I'd sit back and wait until Fzoul is empowered, then offer him more. As soon as he says yes, he is no longer the follower of the other god. I'd direct him to perform a ritual like Xvim did, sacrificing people and taking their power and then take all that power AND all his power AND all the power the god before invested in him for my own. Let him die and I get an extra soul too. All win. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 22:39:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Lastly, remember that Telamont himself said that he knows exactly everything that happens in Shade. So whatever his sons are planning, before any words of a Civil War could escape their lips, he'd know.
Unless, of course, he said that just to make his sons think he knew their plans. There is simply no way he could know everything that happens in Shade.
The whole enclave is suffused with shadowstuff that answers to him. If he says "show me this, and that," he'd be able to do so. That's why he knew immediately that Brennus made a mistake of summoning Mephistopheles.
Fine. What happens when he doesn't say "show me this"?
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is also the possibility that any plans made towards a civil war could be made elsewhere, and simply not discussed while in Shade.
True, but Telamont keeps tabs on his sons wherever they go.
Unless he is constantly scrying them, 24/10/365, there are going to be opportunities for unmonitored conversations. And even if he is scrying them that much, there are way around magical surveillance.
Telamont is not a god, no matter how much some may think he is. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 00:49:02
|
Dalor Nal'Raesik Darden was a Shade LONG before they thought of bringing Shade Enclave back to the FR...and his Obsidian Spire, a massive tower larger on the inside than the outside (pocket dimension) was a sentient magical construct that answered to his every whim.
There is nothing that is against Shade Enclave actually having initially been not only lopped off from a mountain, but that it is also capable of communicating with its creator...such that if the creator is slain, the city itself might suffer. Not wanting to perish (being a sentient being) the city would look out for its creator.
Exactly as I constructed the Obsidian Spire on the slopes of Halruaa. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 02:16:58
|
Additional idea:
Even if the Archwizard Government is for merger with Selunarra, if that is even possible, what about the common men and women on the Enclave. Who would they be more indoctrinated by: Telamont or Shar? Whom side would they be on?
Also if Shade ejects Shar to merge with Selunarra... they will be dependent on Selune's Enclave for divine healing as Shar was the source of most divine/healing magics. Plus it also has more Arcane Healers in 4ed (Bards).
So there is that... |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 02:28:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless he is constantly scrying them, 24/10/365, there are going to be opportunities for unmonitored conversations. And even if he is scrying them that much, there are way around magical surveillance.
Telamont is not a god, no matter how much some may think he is.
You don't have to be a god to be able to monitor everything that happens in your city, especially if your city is cloaked with magic that is attuned to the very fiber of your being.
As for scrying his sons outside the enclave, well, it's possible that he's placed on them some kind of permanent tracking spell (not unlike the tracking device of the modern RW) and explicitly told them not to get rid of it. It's intended not just so he would know if they're plotting something against him, but also so that he would know when to send help when they're in a difficult situation. Remember, he cannot afford to lose them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 02:41:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Additional idea:
Even if the Archwizard Government is for merger with Selunarra, if that is even possible, what about the common men and women on the Enclave. Who would they be more indoctrinated by: Telamont or Shar? Whom side would they be on?
Also if Shade ejects Shar to merge with Selunarra . . . they will be dependent on Selune's Enclave for divine healing as Shar was the source of most divine/healing magics. Plus it also has more Arcane Healers in 4ed (Bards).
So there is that . . .
Completely getting rid of Shar would present serious problems for the empire. Healing magic is just one. Shadow magic in general is the number one problem. However . . . I postulated some time ago that Telamont had somehow discovered an alternate source of (shadow) magic in the event of Shar's demise or the Shadow Weave's collapse. Old Netheril fell when Mystryl made her suicide. He could ill-afford to suffer such fate. And this theory is further supported by his confidence in letting Rivalen get a boost of divine power from Volumvax. If you're someone who's stashed away somewhere a potent source of magic, or is carrying it with you, you won't be afraid to allow your son get a bit of power boost. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 10 Mar 2013 03:23:54 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 02:51:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless he is constantly scrying them, 24/10/365, there are going to be opportunities for unmonitored conversations. And even if he is scrying them that much, there are way around magical surveillance.
Telamont is not a god, no matter how much some may think he is.
You don't have to be a god to be able to monitor everything that happens in your city, especially if your city is cloaked with magic that is attuned to the very fiber of your being.
Actually, yes, you do. How else are you going to simultaneously track thousands of people, over a large area, at the exact same time?
Besides, Champions of Ruin discusses how Shar has been sending agents to infiltrate the city, and how krinth have been escaping. So if people are successfully sneaking in and out, it kinda indicates that Telamont's supposed omniscience isn't.
Or are you going to say he let that happen, and that he also let Mystra's Chosen sneak into his city?
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
As for scrying his sons outside the enclave, well, it's possible that he's placed on them some kind of permanent tracking spell (not unlike the tracking device of the modern RW) and explicitly told them not to get rid of it. It's intended not just so he would know if they're plotting something against him, but also so that he would know when to send help when they're in a difficult situation. Remember, he cannot afford to lose them.
Tracking is not the same as scrying. And magical tracking spells can be defeated the same way as scrying spells. And if his sons were planning a civil war, do you really think they'd scrupulously obey their father's every word? Kinda hard to do that and rebel at the same time. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 06:27:01
|
I would NOT say that he is monitoring everything that happens in shade. I would say that he is monitoring everything the princes of Shade do, whether they are aware of it or not. He also probably has others doing so as well. He's the king. He has a city full of wizards that work for him. It doesn't sound out of the realm of possibility that there is a group of say 50-100 shadowvar that monitor all the most powerful people of shade under the pretext of being able to offer support should the need ever arrive. If this were the case, then it doesn't matter that the princes CAN break the crying, they've been ordered not to do so. Defiance has repercussions.
As far as what the people think. They may worship Shar, but Telamont is Lord Shadow. He IS shade enclave, has been basically like their personal God for millenia, and has his fingers in all their lives. The common shadovar would not go against him.
Also, people are forgetting that wizards CAN heal. Their are many such spells, even for standard mortals. For shades, it would be even easier. Plus they are "evil" which means each and every life draining spell is in their arsenal. PLUS they are Netherese, who would have made the creation of wizardly healing magic a priority. Now, do priest help and make it all easier? Yes. Can they be done without? Of course. In the worst case scenario all one needs to do is plane shift to the Positive material plane for a minute, being sure to shift out again before they explode :D (though I'm not sure if shades can do this - perhaps shades get a similar regeneration from the Deep Shadow Plane, idk) - I for one think it should be even more common, like it was in original D&D for magic-users (page through the old Rules Cyclopedia to see what I mean there), but to each his own. - |
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 09:53:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Look at it this way, Fzoul is not at all loyal to Bane. He "worships" anyone who offers more power. Is that who you'd want being your primary mortal follower. Any god (of proper alignment) could come along and be like, hey Fzoul, be my right hand man and he'd be all about it. If I was another evil god, say Shar (just for example), I'd sit back and wait until Fzoul is empowered, then offer him more. As soon as he says yes, he is no longer the follower of the other god. I'd direct him to perform a ritual like Xvim did, sacrificing people and taking their power and then take all that power AND all his power AND all the power the god before invested in him for my own. Let him die and I get an extra soul too. All win.
Fzoul is smart enough to not try the stupidity to betray Bane when he is alive. Trust me, nobody with his right mind tries to betray any deity he is in service of because an angered god is something you do not want to have against you. And there you have it, Fear, Fzoul owes Bane his life and he fears him because all his power lies with Bane, if Bane thinks Fzoul does a horrible job, he takes his power and Fzoul loses, therefore he instills loyalty because Fzoul is power hungry and wants to keep the power. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 13:25:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Look at it this way, Fzoul is not at all loyal to Bane. He "worships" anyone who offers more power. Is that who you'd want being your primary mortal follower. Any god (of proper alignment) could come along and be like, hey Fzoul, be my right hand man and he'd be all about it. If I was another evil god, say Shar (just for example), I'd sit back and wait until Fzoul is empowered, then offer him more. As soon as he says yes, he is no longer the follower of the other god. I'd direct him to perform a ritual like Xvim did, sacrificing people and taking their power and then take all that power AND all his power AND all the power the god before invested in him for my own. Let him die and I get an extra soul too. All win.
Fzoul is smart enough to not try the stupidity to betray Bane when he is alive. Trust me, nobody with his right mind tries to betray any deity he is in service of because an angered god is something you do not want to have against you. And there you have it, Fear, Fzoul owes Bane his life and he fears him because all his power lies with Bane, if Bane thinks Fzoul does a horrible job, he takes his power and Fzoul loses, therefore he instills loyalty because Fzoul is power hungry and wants to keep the power.
He did it before the time of troubles. Why not now? |
|
|
|
_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 15:44:26
|
If you mean following Cyric, Fzoul was very reluctant about this the whole time.
As for a Civil war inside the city of shades, I really doubt this will happen. They have to much enemies outside and probably know they would take a civil war as an opurtunity against the whole city. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:05:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
As for a Civil war inside the city of shades, I really doubt this will happen. They have to much enemies outside and probably know they would take a civil war as an opurtunity against the whole city.
Excellent point. The risks far outweigh the possible gains.
On the other hand, the revelation of Rivalen's matricide is a key ingredient that might change everything.
It's been fairly established how Brennus loved his mother, and how he now hates Rivalen with every fiber of his being. Angry and desperate times call for drastic, desperate measures.
It only takes one prince (Melegaunt) to prepare the way for Shade's return. It may also take just one prince (Brennus) to cause its fall, or at the very least, its temporary but prolonged weakening. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:16:57
|
| I personally feel that a civil war is bound to break out sooner or later in Shade Enclave. Telamont is just biding his time until they no longer require Shar and then he will exact his revenge on his treacherous son. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 22:12:37
|
Getting back to the base premise of this thread, the idea was Selunites in Selunarra allying with Shade Enclave. Sure, I can see Shade Enclave wanting to form an alliance..... that they'd bend towards tyranny over the other enclave. Do we actually see the Selunites even remotely entertaining the idea? I certainly don't. Now, you want to talk purely Mystrans or Azuthans or Velsharites or Leirans or even Savras in control of some old Netherese something or other.... sure maybe then you've got something. Of course, then you don't have the absolute hatred of Shar & Selune.
If you wanted to go down these lines, I'd find it much more interesting if Shade Enclave and the Nimbrali started talking. Lets face it, Nimbral's an ancestor state of Netheril too, having been broken off from Halruaa. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
The Shadovar Civil War
