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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Feb 2013 : 17:05:19
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So here I am thinking about ruins today. I've placed a LOT of them in my Amalgam-world map, so my players have lots to choose from. They range from FR, to 'adapted from elsewhere', to a couple of homebrew ones.
Its the homebrew ones that got me thinking (because I have to figure out whats there). In most settings we have two levels of ruins (FR has dozens of 'layers', but most still fit into the two main categories): The 'ancient ruin', and the more 'recent ruin'. A lot of this gets dictated by the setting itself - most have some sort of 'major bad' happening about a century in the past, ranging from a 'great war' to a planet-wide geological/ecological event (and everything in-between). Thats a standard trope - those are our recent ruins.
Then there is the world's 'history', which will almost always include one 'mysterious ancient race of awesomeness', and these days there are usually several (in RPG's... movies, TV, and books still prefer just one). FR has a whole smorgasbord, with two separate layers of those (Creator-Race, and post-Sundering).
Here's my thinking right now - the recent ruins are the ones where you 'grind' (using an MORPG term) - you use them to level-up and get treasure (money). This is your basic D&D 'save the town' fare. You go in and clean the place out (and then Elminster shows up and fills it back up  ). Once you have enough money to finance a decent 'expedition', now you can go off an look for some ancient ruins - thats where the REAL 'phat Lewtz' come in. You may find a dagger +1 in a recent ruin, if your lucky, but the ancient ruin could contain the Sword of a Thousand Agonies, or whatever. Those ancient dungeons are where you get those campaign-breaking toys. You use the 'lesser dungeons' (recent ruins) to work your way up to those 'lost city' affairs. Those are the ones that campaign-arcs/adevnture-paths lead up to.
Am I making sense here? Anyone else have any thoughts along these lines?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2013 : 22:21:45
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Definitely. It's like cutting your teeth on the little dungeon of Ironguard and then eventually taking a shot at some ruins in Myth Drannor. Large dungeons are so time consuming to properly make, I tend to stick to small to medium (1-20 areas) dungeons anyways. And small dungeons are perfect for finding notes and/or rumors about the Sword of a Thousand Agonies that lies in <fill in big bad dungeon ruin here>.
History on items is a good thing. I also like items that add flavor. For instance, my group of players discovered a stone coffer with strange runes on them in their very first adventure. It's magically sealed and they have no idea how to open it. Strangely they haven't really pursued opening it, so I haven't even figured out what it holds yet, or even how to properly open it, but I do have a few ideas. :) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2013 : 23:51:18
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| Perhaps a little off-topic, but even +1 longswords require permanency magics to create, and the duration begins to fade or flicker or fail after many centuries or several millennia. I wouldn't be surprised if dragons and liches have to sometimes reenchant items. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2013 : 00:17:02
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That's an interesting concept. Adventurer's find a sputtering staff of the magi that can cast light and maybe a magic missile or two as most of its magic has failed. I always liked the idea of being able to "upgrade" magic items or improve upon them. Maybe as they gain in power they will find rituals and ways to add a few more powers into, maybe even eventually restoring it.
A lich drinking the magical enchantments out of items over the centuries is something I might have to use. :) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2013 : 14:37:19
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I do realize that ALL magic items should have a name and history - ESPECIALLY IN THE REALMS - but I was trying to just cut to the heart of the matter. A +1 dagger could have a great name and interesting back-story, but it usually won't be THE item you need to kill the BBG.
Strangely (and most especially in video-games) you usually find said item right near the BBG (in the same dungeon). You got to wonder why these guys don't take better care of this stuff. It reminds me of one of my all-time, old-school VG's - Zelda: A Link to the Past. Every time you find a new magic item (near the beginning of a dungeon), that just so happens to be the precise item you need to get through the dungeon. It makes sense in a VG which has limited plot, but not so much in a P&P RPG. I suppose designers have to work that way, since they are working on self-contained modules. From what I've read about Ed's home campaigns, he certainly didn't do that - you can find an item that wouldn't have any significance for years.
I wonder if the 4e design team had similar thoughts as my own for this thread - that adventuring itself comes in 'tiers', and the game should be designed from that PoV. We have our local/recent dungeon/ruins, our 'ancient ruins', and then the epic tier is when you start to travel the planes and bitch-slap gods. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that - quite the contrary (because I am now thinking along these lines myself). However, I think the system itself may have removed the necessary 'layer of transparency' a good RPG needs. Ed designed the Realms with the whole 'Wheels within Wheels' model in mind, but its buried deep where its not so damn apparent. You are not supposed to say, "Yay! We are level seven now.. we can finally do the Dungeon of Death!"
The way they should be thinking is "We just found this map in the Haunted Halls, and it appears to be a section of place located in the North... lets put this away for some other time." Then when they get to the other locale (someday, way down the line), they take out that scrap of paper and it happens to have a clue about how to get in to that 'other dungeon'. ("Speak friend, and enter")
So using this logic, then those recent ruins - the ones from that 'great disaster' about a century ago, should have things left behind from THAT generation's 'heroes'. You can find the skeleton of a someone you may have heard about 'in legends' and discover the map in its boney grasp.
You know... this isn't the way I pictured this thread going, but that might be a cool way to present the 5e material, moving forward. Instead of the "its a new setting!" approach the 4e team used, how about "a broken world resting upon the bones of its past". You know... like how it all started out in the OGB. A note left behind by Vangerdehast, a 'cache' of items that once belonged to Storm, a Blackstaff, Elminster's pipe, or even something as innocuous as a small locket once worn by Cattie-Brie - all of those could be wonderful adventure-starters with a link to the 'lost century'.
Found in those 'recent ruins' - the ones Faerūn was littered with after the Spellplague hit. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2013 14:37:48 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2013 : 18:37:20
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Recent ruin: Himral Uldoun, Mithral Hall.
Ancient ruin: Gauntlgrym
Even more ancient ruin: Shanatar?
Bruenor discovered the royal battle armor and arms of Clan Battlehammer in the entry hall of ruins of Mithral Hall (Streams of Silver), which had reportedly been worn by some of his ancestors in the dynasty.
But what if some or all of that gear went even further back?
Gauntlgrym tells us that there was an ancestor wearing the familiar foaming mug standard on his gear back when the elves and dwarves agreed to erect the fire primordial's trap under the mountain.
And Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark tells us that Clan Battlehammer's ancestors originated from the south, possibly all the way from Deep Shanatar.
Quite possibly there's even better dwarven gear out there, waiting to be found, than what Bruenor was drooling over in Gauntlgrym. And since whatever ruins of Shanatar that may still exist have been devoid of dwarves for so much longer than even Gauntlgrym, they have surely got to be even more treacherous and infested with monsters.
Recent ruin: Drizzt helped Bruenor re-discover and re-conquer Mithral Hall
Ancient ruin: Drizzt helped Bruenor re-discover, but not re-conquer Gauntlgrym
Epic level: Drizzt is now contemplating heading to the Shadowfell in order to retrieve a certain loved one.
And there is recurring talk of him figuring highly in either Lolth's or Mielikki's personal schemes, possibly as a Chosen, which may involve him rising to an even higher level of adventure. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2013 : 04:53:49
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Well excuse me copper,
Mr. Crimestopper
What is wrong with what we're doin'
We just like to dance in our goat-skin pants
Around the ancient ruin.
It's no joke,
I'm broke.
My rights I can and will invoke.
It ain't funny,
I might want money
To take home to my honey! 
10 points for anyone who knows where that little bit of tripe came from.
On topic: Yes, this is the general way things go in most campaigns I've played/run. Of course, there is no hard rule that says it HAS to be that way. Imagine a campaign where the PCs find the powerful magic early...and then have to defend themselves from all of the would-be owners of said item(s).  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2013 : 05:22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Well excuse me copper,
Mr. Crimestopper
What is wrong with what we're doin'
We just like to dance in our goat-skin pants
Around the ancient ruin.
It's no joke,
I'm broke.
My rights I can and will invoke.
It ain't funny,
I might want money
To take home to my honey!
10 points for anyone who knows where that little bit of tripe came from.
Dragnet! Oddly, it was the goat-skin pants that gave it away for me. I don't think I've seen that movie since shortly after it came out on VHS, though... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Feb 2013 05:22:45 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2013 : 05:54:44
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DING DING DING, YOU'RE A WINNER! 
You win a lifetime supply of SPAM, potted meat, and Vienna sausage!
I always liked that movie but haven't seen it in many years. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 15 Feb 2013 05:56:35 |
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'Ancient' Ruins....
