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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 17:20:19
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Hi, My first own topic after a while here in the Keep. Now one thing has crossed my mind (actually two).
Firstly has RAS invented Drow signlanguage? Because if he has, I have rather strong feeling on where he has got some influence on it.
Second thing is, has anybody noted some rather obivous connections between the Drow Signlanguage and Drasnian signlanguage in Belgariad? Thing why i think this might be the case is RAS has stated he likes Belgariad rather lot. (Source is Cleric Quintets foreword). Anybody got any insights in this?
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 17:54:06
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Who is RAS? ((usually should explain what you are acronyming, before you use it ))
An if they are both the same person, it could very well be - if you are talking about Salvatore?- the simple bit that it is coming from the same author, so he had a neat concept, that dragged over both Drow and this drasnian, and sometimes as authors are bad at and forgot to differentiated and reused an old idea. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 18:01:40
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Who is RAS? ((usually should explain what you are acronyming, before you use it ))
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Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 18:05:14
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Don't give me that look , am not going to assume what something stands for.
Better to ask what something is and look a fool, then assume something is and be a fool. - Elminster |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 18:47:23
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RAS (Robert A. Salvatore)has written Drizzt books.
In answer to OP, no Robert did not invent Drow Silence. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 19:22:58
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Regardless of whether or not there was outside influence, using hand gestures for silent communication is a pretty simple idea, and not at all uncommon.
Short of telepathy, controlled scents/pheromones, or writing, there's not really any other good method of communicating without being overheard. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 19:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Better to ask what something is and look a fool, then assume something is and be a fool. - Elminster
"Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 19:55:13
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| As Kentinal said, RAS is R. A. Salvatore, and I don't think he invented the drow sign because they were an established race before the Drizzt books, unless it was his idea and the creators decided to keep it, but I don't think that was the case. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 20:10:29
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Drow silent language dates from 1981 FF.
RAS was first published in 1988 (The Crystal Shard (1988) (Between 1351DR and 1356DR)) as such it clearly appears unlikely that RAS had anything about the creation of hand talk.
Oh side bit RAS = Robert Anthony Salvatore.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 21:06:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Drow silent language dates from 1981 FF.
Drow were said to use silent sign language back in the Against the Giants, Descent into the Depths of the Earth, and Vault of the Drow modules in 1978, all attributed to Gary Gygax.
I don't believe Salvatore incorporated the silent sign language into the Realmsian version of the drow until the novel Homeland, first published in 1991. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 22:45:08
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quote:
AD&D (1E) Unearthed Arcana (1985)
In addition, all dark elves "speak" the silent tongue of subterranean dwellers, a language of complex hand signals and gestures, combined with facial expressions and body language. The range of communication in this silent tongue is only 30', but it is as informative as any other language within that range. Only the drow may fully master this tongue, though other races may be taught its basic signs and symbols.
Spoken and sign versions of "Undercommon" had already been discussed in ancient issues of Dragon at least as early as 1979. It's just one of those weird little subculture things (like the "d" notation gamers use) which was intuitively understood by AD&D players long before it was formally explained/printed in any game rules. I would attribute the invention to Gygax or Moore. It certainly predated Salvatore's first Drizzt novels. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Feb 2013 22:58:23 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 16:24:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Better to ask what something is and look a fool, then assume something is and be a fool. - Elminster
"Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln
So who do I believe Elminister or Lincoln? Damn you two for creating this conundrum. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 17:07:33
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Instead of asking questions, you could just babel incoherently...
"“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull***t.” --- W.C. Fields
So if the guy asking questions runs into the guy following the above philosophy, he just gets stupider.
And 'hand signals' have been in use by military for thousands of years, and since the Drow are all about fighting everyone they meet, it makes sense its a major part of their culture.
Just for reference, The first book in The Belgariad was written in 1982 (good series, BTW), so given the timing, if anything, I would say David Eddigs 'may have' gotten inspiration from D&D Drow (since I assume many fantasy authors writing around the time must have been aware of D&D on some level). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2013 17:07:56 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 17:58:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Better to ask what something is and look a fool, then assume something is and be a fool. - Elminster
"Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln
So who do I believe Elminister or Lincoln? Damn you two for creating this conundrum.
I have a friend who still curses my name, years after the fact, for putting a conundrum before him: who would win, Optimus Prime or Godzilla? Said friend is a HUGE fan of both, and says it would be easier to pick his favorite grandmother! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 18:00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And 'hand signals' have been in use by military for thousands of years, and since the Drow are all about fighting everyone they meet, it makes sense its a major part of their culture.
Just for reference, The first book in The Belgariad was written in 1982 (good series, BTW), so given the timing, if anything, I would say David Eddigs 'may have' gotten inspiration from D&D Drow (since I assume many fantasy authors writing around the time must have been aware of D&D on some level).
Given your first statement -- and the fact that it's an obvious solution for silent communication -- I still don't see a reason to assume any author had to take the inspiration for handcant from any fictional source. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 18:36:23
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I agree with Wooly.
However, Madpig, the D&D drow silent language definitely predates David Eddings publishing anything except THE HIGH HUNT, his first (and modern-day, not fantasy)novel, so no Realms (or other D&D writer) could possibly have "copied" it from Eddings.
Silent signal languages among organizations that are outcast or thieves or of another faith than the prevailing local culture is an old, old part of real-world culture (and writings).
Ed had silent gesture languages in the Realms back in some short stories published in 1968, long before David Eddings had published anything.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 23 Feb 2013 18:38:15 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 22:36:10
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| Even ye olde thieves' cant of AD&D 1E involved "a mixture of special words and gestures hidden within common language, conveying certain meaning to thieves". |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 00:03:30
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I didn't assume anything.
What I said is that if anything, D.E. 'could have' gotten it from D&D/drow. I do NOT believe that is what occurred, I was pointing out what could be possible going by the timeline.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Drow signlanguage
