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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 23:19:10
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After a search, I couldn’t find anything, so now I ask in stead.
I can gather from FRCS, that there are 660.960 inhabitants in the Sword Coast North. And this is largely situated in 5 bigger settlements:
Golden Fields (7.988)
Icewind Dale (10.436)
Luskan (14.173)
Mirabar (10.307)
Neverwinter (23.192)
Total: 66.096
First question that comes into mind is: Where are all the others? I can see from the map, that there are smaller settlements, but since these are not "major" geographical features, like the above mentioned, I’m assume these can’t amass more than a few thousand. Where are all the rest of the 660.960 inhabitants?
Second question is that if one calculates, following the description of the Sword Coast North in FRCS, one would get that the area is approximately 120.000 square miles. Divided by the inhabitants of 660.960 one would get 5.5 persons per square mile. How can this be right?
Can someone explain this?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 23:26:28
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| There are a lot of nameless villages or places too small for the maps. There are also fortified inns/waystops along major roads. And there are isolated homes scattered about, whether a woodsman and his lean-to, a hermit in a cave, a druid who sleeps wherever is convenient, a lone wizard in his tower, etc. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 23:35:31
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I doubt there's any way to take accurate census metrics in the Realms, at least not beyond small nation-states like Cormyr and Sembia.
Depending on the general level of agricultural development, something between maybe two-thirds and nine-tenths of the population actually live rural and pastoral lives, a large percentage of the population is needed to feed the masses who live in cities and towns and villages. This might seem like an exaggeration, but remember that farming without modern machines requires as many hands as you can get. Maybe all the magic and priests and Gondish inventions of the Realms reduce this number to only about half the total population.
Could one ever count how many elves lurk in the forests, how many dwarves sulk in the mines, how many merchants and soldiers and sailors and gypsies have no home, how many outlaws and monsters camp outside the law? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Feb 2013 23:40:22 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 00:42:53
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10% urbanisation is actually pretty spot-on for a pseudo-renaissance economy. The fact that many Forgotten Realms locales have much more urbanisation than that may be due to certain places being trade hubs, the great integration of the world economy seen in the Realms, the consolidation of power in frontier towns, or, well, the fact that the people that decide the numbers don't always get it right. In this case, though, the figure makes a lot of sense in my opinion. The place is very much a backwater, and thus, not as much affect by globalisation as the Heartlands, but it's also dangerous, which makes people huddle close together under the protection of powerful rulers.
I'm guessing you think 5.5 people/square mile is too little. I should point that's about the same density of the Canadian province of Manitoba today. The Sword Coast North is mostly wilderness, so you can't really use Central European standards for population. In any case, I usually postulate that population numbers in 3e account only for free adult (around 15 years old or more) citizens. That's totally my assumption though. In reality, population numbers in the Realms are a shaky thing. Previous material had a bunch of really, really big cities, as well as some that seemed way too small. I generally consider 3e to have a more wholly approach to it, as in, the numbers make a bit more sense together (previous editions didn't even mention the whole population of the nations/regions), but they went a bit too far with some size reductions, I think. Thus my fix, which works surprisingly well for me. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 02:03:56
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People can live without carpentry and metalwork, but everybody needs a steady supply of food. Monsters need to eat, too, so I think that while people might huddle together for strength-in-numbers security, they might need to actually do it outside of urban centers to guard their crops and herds from constant predation.
Claiming a city is a developed mercantile hub which can trade for food is fine, but it's just passing the buck ... not all cities can be sustained by trade, and the food still has to come from somewhere.
Do the stated figures indicate whether they only count populations inside city walls, or are they counting a wider range which includes all the farmsteads which support each city? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 13:35:00
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Our perception of the Forgotten Realms is heavily skewed by the available material. Wooly is spot-on - we actually never get to see 90%+ of what is going on on the maps.
Look at The North, and then look at the Silver Marches - they added several more towns (and rivers) in 3e, and yet dropped a few other locales. Some of it was due to things changing over time, but most of it was because 'new information arose'.
So if we picture all those settlements we don't see - like all the stars we can't see in the night sky (unless we are someplace rural) - we might get the impression that FR is crowded, and not PoL (as I have been saying repeatedly). What we are failing to comprehend is the SCALE at which the maps are - they are not local maps like the kind we (used to) drive around with - they are the whopping humongous ones we had hanging up in our classrooms. How many of us can see our hometowns on a world map? If you looked at a map of where I live you'd think I was in an urban center, and yet I have over a 100K acres of wilderness right next to my house. Its all about perspective - when two towns on the FR maps look close together, they are really over 30 miles apart, which is a day's travel in 'medieval times'. Most of them are even much further then that; in the story Crypt of the Shadowking it took the protagonists over a week to travel from Iriaebor to the Fields of the Dead, and although they did pass several settlements, they mostly traveled through UNTAMED WILDERNESS.
To give you a bit more perspective, the entirety of the Nentir Vale setting (which is considered the 'epitome' of PoL) fits snuggly between the southern edge of the High forest and the High Moor! You see, I know this because I pasted it (to scale) into my homebrwed FR map... and guess what? The settlements in Nentir Vale are FAR closer together then the ones on the surrounding canon FR map!
So I hope that takes that false attitude that FR was not already the ULTIMATE PoL setting from the beginning (and no changes ever needed to be made). If only someone on the 4e design team had owned a ruler... {sigh}
EDIT: I forgot my 'on-topic summation' LOL; There are literally thousands of tiny settlements everywhere we never get to see, ranging from individual homesteads to near city-sized towns (like Rhysheos, which exists just SE of the Boareskyr Bridge, but was only 'detailed' in one short story). The FR Campaign map is continental in size, and we have to look at it that way. Just like on a RW continent map, there should be thousands (upon thousands) of more settlements shown, but there should also be huge swaths of wilderness between most of them - even more-so applying this to the Realms. 'The North' is roughly equivalent to the American NW in size, so you should picture it in terms of that (or your own local equivalent - perhaps the Ukraine?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2013 13:48:37 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 17:34:46
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Actually, I should probably point that the 10% urbanisation figure is used throughout the FRCS (and perhaps other sourcebooks of the 3e era, not sure), with a few tweaks in some places. Though since those sourcebooks don't mention every town, urbanisation can be assumed to be actually quite a bit higher.
And thumbs up for Markus' post above this one. Though I think PoL is a bit of a silly concept, because it's more than the very realistic notion that the world is BIG... it's also meant to put the world in a constant "need to be saved by your PCs" situation, which is nonsensical for a world that's supposed to have a structure that allows it to develop over time. I mean, if your PCs are saving the world now, then who saved it last month, and why aren't they still around? |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 05 Feb 2013 17:43:12 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 17:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
After a search, I couldn’t find anything, so now I ask in stead.
I can gather from FRCS, that there are 660.960 inhabitants in the Sword Coast North. And this is largely situated in 5 bigger settlements:
Golden Fields (7.988)
Icewind Dale (10.436)
Luskan (14.173)
Mirabar (10.307)
Neverwinter (23.192)
Total: 66.096
First question that comes into mind is: Where are all the others? I can see from the map, that there are smaller settlements, but since these are not "major" geographical features, like the above mentioned, I’m assume these can’t amass more than a few thousand. Where are all the rest of the 660.960 inhabitants?
Second question is that if one calculates, following the description of the Sword Coast North in FRCS, one would get that the area is approximately 120.000 square miles. Divided by the inhabitants of 660.960 one would get 5.5 persons per square mile. How can this be right?
Can someone explain this?
Are you sure you just didn't misplace a decimal place in the original number? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 19:54:13
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One of the works put out by Kenser and Co. was the Kingdoms of Kalamar Atlas...WOW that was a good work!
In it, you got to see more of what a fantasy world COULD look like with the various towns, villages, cities and etc laid right out on a map...a HUGE book of maps with villages all over the place.
Something like that for the Forgotten Realms is my dream... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 22:21:13
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I think it depends on how far east you're willing to go and still consider it part of the Sword Coast North region. In Volo's Guide to the North, for example, Citadel Adbar (14,000), Everlund (12,000), Nesmé (6,000), Mithral Hall (10,000), Silverymoon (26,000), and Sundabar (36,000!) are grouped as part of the Interior of the Sword Coast. Also, don't overlook some of the towns like Fireshear (15,000) and Ironmaster (9,200). And Citadel Felbarr (7,000) was reincorporated and re-populated after the fall of the Citadel of Many-Arrows.
The populations of those cities invariably changed by the time of 3E, too. Silverymoon, for example, is listed at 37,000 in the FRCS (3E), and Citadel Adbar at 20,000.
But ultimately, it's like MT said, in that there are still a lot of settlements that are not fully detailed in the lorebooks. Even well-traveled Volo admits this:
quote:
No traveler has time to go everywhere or to see everything. There are many places in the North that I haven't yet seen. These include hundreds of small holds and hamlets hidden away in remote vales and all of the nonhuman communities of the High Forest, as well as the various monster-infested ruins of Netheril. (VGTTN, p195: "Other Places of Note in the North")
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 23:28:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
After a search, I couldn’t find anything, so now I ask in stead.
I can gather from FRCS, that there are 660.960 inhabitants in the Sword Coast North. And this is largely situated in 5 bigger settlements:
Golden Fields (7.988)
Icewind Dale (10.436)
Luskan (14.173)
Mirabar (10.307)
Neverwinter (23.192)
Total: 66.096
First question that comes into mind is: Where are all the others? I can see from the map, that there are smaller settlements, but since these are not "major" geographical features, like the above mentioned, I’m assume these can’t amass more than a few thousand. Where are all the rest of the 660.960 inhabitants?
Second question is that if one calculates, following the description of the Sword Coast North in FRCS, one would get that the area is approximately 120.000 square miles. Divided by the inhabitants of 660.960 one would get 5.5 persons per square mile. How can this be right?
Can someone explain this?
Are you sure you just didn't misplace a decimal place in the original number?
I took it from FRCS, and followed the size they said te Sword Coast North was.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2013 : 01:57:40
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They must be counting orcs.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 23:05:06
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| To me the area just seemed too emty. But I will accept the fact that there is just a lot of singe homes and small undescribed villages... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 10:44:54
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Older D&D material sometimes stated that perhaps 1 in 10 people could qualify for an adventuring class, and perhaps 1% of those people actually do indeed become adventurers. But if roughly 1 in 1000 people is an adventurer then (assuming they all survive!) there should basically be around 661 adventurers (of all levels!) throughout the entire Sword Coast North ... I almost seriously think there might be be more than that number in the published sourcebooks ... and that doesn't even begin to address the many hundreds or thousands more "F0" and "F1" types who might be serving these "exceptional individuals" as hirelings, followers, guardsmen, soldiers, and mercenaries.
This is hardly any sort of definitive argument, being based as it is on slight exaggerations of vague approximations of highly variable categories ... but it does seem to illustrate that the numbers in the FRCS are completely whack. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2013 10:55:25 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 00:28:12
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I thought half of all adventurers were duel-wielding drow?
There are over seventy two trillion Drizzt's in the North alone. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2013 00:28:31 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 05:09:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I thought half of all adventurers were duel-wielding drow?
There are over seventy two trillion Drizzt's in the North alone.
Nuh unh. They're all different, MT.
There's only one Drizzt.
But there's also:
D'rizzt
Dr'izzt
Dri'zzt
Driz'zt
Drizz't
Drizzit
DRIZZT (all caps makes it completely different, see?)
 |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 10:06:37
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| I am reminded of Zathras. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 11:34:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I am reminded of Zathras.
I still maintain that B5 fans deserve a 'Quotable Zathras.'
"You leave, Zathras die. You take, Zathras die. Either way, is bad for Zathras." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 15:55:54
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@BEAST - I think I used Dri$$‡ once... perhaps in WoW... I forget. I know I had to try something like a hundred different combinations until I found one no-one thought of.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2013 16:03:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 16:07:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I am reminded of Zathras.
I still maintain that B5 fans deserve a 'Quotable Zathras.'
"You leave, Zathras die. You take, Zathras die. Either way, is bad for Zathras."
My fave Zathras quote remains this one:
"Zathras is used to being beast of burden to other people's needs. Very sad life. Probably have very sad death. But at least there is symmetry." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 16:12:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@BEAST - I think I used Dri$$‡ once... perhaps in WoW... I forget. I know I had to try something like a hundred different combinations until I found one no-one thought of.
Look at our own membership list:
The Great Drizzt
Drizztsmanchild
Sith_Lord_Drizzt
Drizzt Do Urden
DrizzitFan
DrizztDoUrden
Drizzt
Drizzt Fan
Drizzt DoUrden37
Darth Drizzt
a drizzt fan
catti_drizzt
Drizzero
Drizzit
Drizzit DoUrden
Drizzofein
Drizzt DoUrden
drizzt190
DrizztxGuen |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 18:04:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@BEAST - I think I used Dri$$‡ once... perhaps in WoW... I forget. I know I had to try something like a hundred different combinations until I found one no-one thought of.
Look at our own membership list:
The Great Drizzt
Drizztsmanchild
Sith_Lord_Drizzt
Drizzt Do Urden
DrizzitFan
DrizztDoUrden
Drizzt
Drizzt Fan
Drizzt DoUrden37
Darth Drizzt
a drizzt fan
catti_drizzt
Drizzero
Drizzit
Drizzit DoUrden
Drizzofein
Drizzt DoUrden
drizzt190
DrizztxGuen
Can't you just see peeps banging their heads on their desks when trying to register new accounts and their "awesome" idea has already been taken?
"Awe, MAN!!!" *thud, thud* |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 18:30:29
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I know! 
How about we create a whole 'nother internet just for all the Drizzt'z? It could be the Drizzternet! 
And now I am picturing a 'Bizzaro World', except everyone looks like a version of Drizzt (including 'Drizzt Babies'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 22:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know!
How about we create a whole 'nother internet just for all the Drizzt'z? It could be the Drizzternet!
And now I am picturing a 'Bizzaro World', except everyone looks like a version of Drizzt (including 'Drizzt Babies').
And an entire website devoted to the idea that Guenhwyvar can has cheezburger! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Feb 2013 22:16:55 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 22:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know!
How about we create a whole 'nother internet just for all the Drizzt'z? It could be the Drizzternet!
And now I am picturing a 'Bizzaro World', except everyone looks like a version of Drizzt (including 'Drizzt Babies').
Drizztaro World & stuff... |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Sword Coast North
