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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 13:58:58
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The film Artificial Intelligence raised some interesting questions: Could a robot engineered to function with AI actually feel? Could it dream a real dream? Could it adapt to its environment? Could it have goals, and would it wish to fulfill them? What exactly would it do if its “parents” die?
Same questions can be applied to magical constructs, specially if their makers or known “parents” die. There are artifacts of power that continue to work even centuries after their creators' demise. Constructs are like artifacts. But whether they continue to develop personalities after their parent's death is left to possibilities.
Yes, there are the Warforged created by House Cannith. But I don' really think of them highly. Their personality mostly revolves around their purpose: fight to win a war. A sentient construct may become more than that, may do more than just fight...Probably have its own dreams and find ways to fulfill them?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36817 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 14:18:19
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| The Realms does have, in canon, sentient, self-willed constructs. Aragus the helmed horror and Squch the scaladar come most readily to mind. So does Minder, though she is a dwarven mind in an iron golem body. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 14:32:41
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| If the robot is sophisticated enough sure why not? The humand brain is nothing else than a very advanced biological computer. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 19:02:58
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The Realms is filled to the brim with sapient (or at least sentient) magical items, illusions, and constructs. Talking swords, statues, constructs, even spells capable of making intelligent decisions. Constructed intelligence is a difficult (perhaps impossible) achievement with our science, but a routine (even annoying) incidental consequence when using magic.
Alias is a 1E-era living construct. Built through a collaboration of high-powered individuals (and a half-dormant god). She definitely has human-equivalent passions, although her emotional growth was initially awkward and stunted.
Warforged are numerous enough to be a "race" in 3E-/4E-era Lantan, Gontal, Thay, etc. They are typically described as emotionless, but they are highly variable and individuals can be emotionally expressive (if perhaps not in the same way a human might be).
I think society has been misinformed with a popular "android fallacy" of sorts. A constructed intelligence might be equivalent (or superior) to human intelligence, it might even be packaged into a humaniform android body, but it is not a human intelligence, it will not believe it is a human or express human emotions (unless designed/programmed to emulate such behaviour so well it even fools itself). Since we lack any non-human intelligences to measure against, I think we cannot safely assume that only human intelligences are capable of emotional thought - in fact, almost every animal on our world seems to have emotional capacities, so the evidence suggests it not a strictly human trait. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Jan 2013 19:03:30 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
641 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 01:23:39
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Just for a hint of reference, here's the Forgotten Realms Wiki brief on Squch: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Squch
Mod edit: removed the period that was hosing the link.  |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Jan 2013 05:25:39 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31794 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 02:07:06
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| Strangely enough, I've just started tweaking with the possibility of incorporating Golarion's Androids [as detailed in the Inner Sea Bestiary] into my Realms. I'm using Aragus and Squch as a basis for the conversion, along with some nifty tidbits I've picked up from the Metal Mage's experiments with constructs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6670 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 04:09:14
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FR7 Hall of Heroes had an interesting write-up on golems et. al. in the write-up of the aforementioned Alias.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 04:52:39
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| I think its not just about artificially created sentience, sometimes even the acquisition of knowledege over a long period of time can an entity acquire "awareness" like V'Ger in the first Star Trek film. Not only that, but I'm sure that mages the Realms over will try anything to live forever(for those who want to at least) and perhaps merge their souls or minds or both to a golem or construct. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 05:28:10
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| Artificial intelligence invites artificial stupidity, artificial senility, artificial insanity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36817 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 05:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Not only that, but I'm sure that mages the Realms over will try anything to live forever(for those who want to at least) and perhaps merge their souls or minds or both to a golem or construct.
I see this as quite likely, and it's part of the basis for my Realms-flavored warforged articles.
But I didn't include them in a discussion of artificial intelligence, because they are natural intelligences transplanted into an artificial form. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36817 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 05:32:26
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Oh, and about Aragus...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Are there any other sentient golems in the FR?
I'm not recalling any, at the moment... But there are some free-willed helmed horrors wandering around. One, Aragus, was mentioned in the Helmed Horror MC write-up in Halls of the High King. I later queried Ed about it, and got the following reply:
quote:
Hi again, all.
This time I bring some brief words of Ed in response to Wooly Rupert’s Helmed Horror queries: “That of course got me wondering (especially since I've always loved helmed horrors). Is Aragus still around? What are its goals? How is it treated by the folk of Waterdeep? What is its legal status (as in, is it considered a citizen, and if not, what rights does it have?)? Can helmed horrors gain levels or class abilities? And lastly, are there other noteworthy independent helmed horrors out there?”
and:
“And as an addendum to my previous helmed horror questions... Can they be created without the use of a corpse and/or the Doom of Bane spell?”
Ed replies:
Hi, Wooly! Yes, Aragus is still around, but has “faked” its own destruction and is now keeping a low profile, with rooms it can hide out in, in both Dock Ward and North Ward, and using a hargaunt (see my current Knights trilogy of novels) to give it various lifelike “human face” masks.
Its goals remain mysterious (as in, both NDAs and my own unfolding campaign needs to remain silent apply). Most folk in Waterdeep consider Aragus to be “no more” (some Lords know better, but are keeping silent for their own reasons.
No, helmed horrors can’t gain levels or class abilities in the same way that PCs can. They CAN be augmented by wizards (and if playing 3e, insert applicable prestige classes here) of sufficient power and learning, so as to gain hit points, better attacks, particular abilities, etc.
Yes, there are other noteworthy Helmed Horrors active in the Realms right now (I have to check with certain mysterious WotC personages to see if some current NDAs prevent me from discussing two of the most famous/infamous, so I’ll return at some later date with more . . . or not).
And yes, there are several other methods of creating helmed horrors besides using a corpse or a Doom of Bane spell. Magic armor can be mated with a wraith (by means of the right sequence of spells), for one (and other undead can serve, to be “bound into” armor; even simple animated skeletons can be put into armor and spells used to create a crude facsimile of a helmed horror. Augmented battle horrors (the feather fall, dimension door, and magic missile-hurling variants, only “powered up” to do worse things) can be made by a variety of magical processes, and at least one priesthood (Gond’s) has been seeking to craft its own guardian helmed horrors through rituals and prayers (that is, divine magic only, with nary an arcane spell involved; BTW, they have done this thus far unsuccessfully).
So saith Ed.
And I’d like to add a personal postscript to dalor: certainly you can ask me things, and I’ll be quite happy to answer. I’ll probably post an answer to your question that Sage redirected here, tomorrow, but I must run now. The phone we nicknamed “the Bat Phone” years back is ringing, and that means urgent work . . .
love to all,
THO
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
641 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 05:34:33
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Thanks for the link fix.  |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11875 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 16:53:40
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| You know, oddly when I hear that idea of wizard becoming a construct, the first thought that pops in my head is "if they want to give up having sex" (probably because we were discussing the whole idea of a simulacrum polymorphing in another thread). However, I guess the same thing happens whenever they become say a lich (unless someone knows that liches are able to run around with a stiffy). However, I have heard of half-vampires... but I think that's only the case with the "turned while in the womb"? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 17:08:06
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| Not impossible, sleyvas. I usually assume most wizards who reach such levels of accomplishment are well-past puberty. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36817 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 17:56:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You know, oddly when I hear that idea of wizard becoming a construct, the first thought that pops in my head is "if they want to give up having sex" (probably because we were discussing the whole idea of a simulacrum polymorphing in another thread). However, I guess the same thing happens whenever they become say a lich (unless someone knows that liches are able to run around with a stiffy). However, I have heard of half-vampires... but I think that's only the case with the "turned while in the womb"?
One of the reasons I think a wizard might turn to an artificial body, as opposed to pursuing undeath, is something I expressed years ago, in Ed's thread. Me, if I was planning on sticking around for half of forever, I'd want to make sure that I'd not need to worry about my fingers falling off. Leaving little bits and pieces of myself everywhere is not something I'd want to deal with. With an artificial body, it could be more easily repaired/upgraded, and hopping to another one would also be an option. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 18:40:36
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I got two words for ya' - "Oil... Me.." 
EDIT: Forgive the length of this - its why I hadn't responded to this thread sooner. If you can bear with the long-windedness I'd appreciate it - I have to explain where I got some of my ideas/inspirations from, which is the reason for its length. Thanks.
Anyhow, I've been working on my own system which addresses some of these issues. My thoughts on the matter are that an artificial creature (even a hologram/illusion) needs to have some small bit of 'soul stuff' in order to achieve something approaching true life.
I look at the human (mortal) body as a container, or rather, several containers (existing in different dimensions). 'Soul Stuff' is kept in one - this is where 'morality' comes in. When you do evil deeds, little cracks form in your container (not really, but its a good metaphor) - you loose a small "bit of yourself" for each evil act committed. This ties into some of the Ravenloft rules (which I've always admired). Your soul is actually the energy that represents the Good/Evil axis on the alignment scale. The more of it you loose, the closer you move toward 'evil' (or rather, completely amoral). This doesn't automatically make you a psychopath, just a sociopath (to become a psycho you need to also move 'downhill' along the Chaos/Law axis).
But I digress... the point is that in order to create 'true life' in something, you first have to give up something - a piece of your own soul (or if you are already evil, a piece of someone else's). You can create an artificial lifeform that greatly resembles a real living being, but without that 'spark' its just a machine (even a biological one).
On the bright side, souls can replenish themselves over time. Its not easy, and takes awhile, but it can be done. I also think that this is the basis for ALL artifacts - a bit of 'soul stuff' needs to transferred to the device (which was represented by CON in prior editions). That is why most artifacts eventually achieve some sort of intellect of their own - the more complicated the device, the faster it will 'grow'. Perhaps even minor magical devices also require this, but the price you are 'paying' is so small as to be almost negligible (from a rules-standpoint; over time creating MANY such devices should have an effect on the person).
Now, automata (Golems, etc) are complicated magical devices. The more complicated, the easier it is for them to gain some sentience. The shortcut would be to merge an already-existence bit of soul-stuff into them - I believe one of Wooly's favorite NPCs did just that (that dwarf from the comics). I also think this is precisely how legendary/Ancestor weapons work (the spirit of the user merges with his/her weapon after dying).
Souls can also be 'pieced together' to form a new one - this may even be how it really works with 'replenishing' (there is only so much soul-stuff in the universe, so it has to come from somewhere). I used this heavily in my musings on the Bloodforges in the Utter East: they slowly drain-away tiny bits of soul-stuff from people nearby in order to create their 'miracles', which include Basal Golems. Mortals literally become the power-source, usually without their knowledge (and this is what lead to all the weirdness in the UE - folk in certain places have mutated/degenerated into monstrous forms). Eventually (after a year and a day in my HB material) these Basal Golems achieve independence and a will of their own. This follows in much the same tradition as Eberron's warforged (they did not start-out as 'people', but they do become them).
So, in conclusion, I think that if a simulcrum/etc (or an illusion) somehow spontaneously developed "a mind of its own", what really happened was a stray bit of soul-stuff bonded with the magic, and a person grew from that. Perhaps magic and life aren't quite the same thing, but there is some sort of 'magnetic attraction' we haven't figured-out yet.
Man, how I wish I could get Ed to comment on this... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2013 18:48:34 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 19:23:52
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In our world there are many philosophies and religions and things in between which attempt to define the soul, all of which require faith in some kind of truth. We cannot even agree whether souls and minds are separate things or to what degree they affect one another.
But in D&D souls are not entirely intangible or immaterial. They can be seen, they can interact with the world, they can change things, they are important elements of many magics (including finger of death, resurrection, divinations, and most necromancies). Their exact properties are still elusive, but their applications are well understood. Some things possess intelligence but lack souls, other things are souls without minds or identities. This includes all sorts of constructs. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2013 19:27:30 |
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Constructs with Artificial Intelligence
