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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 18:35:48
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The horseman appeared on the FR0 cover, so it was inevitable he'd be given stats. I think recycling him on newer FR covers was not only a way to recycle a good piece of artwork (save money!), but also a deliberate decision to associate the new product with a classic pedigree.
The content of those cards seems to be entirely inaccessible without actually having the cards. Apparently not mentioned or referenced in any other "canon" FR product. And (from what little I could find online) every card used recycled artwork, as many pieces as they could gather, and TSR just invented some crunch/fluff text to fill them up. Incidentally, I note the stats provided on the Alias card do not match the Alias stats in "canon" sourcebooks.
I'm guessing these were a failed experiment, completely drowned under the MAGIC card game, today possessed only by collectors. Why argue about canon which so few people know exists or can even access? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 18:41:47
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Did the cards bear the logo? I never bought any so I wouldn't kow.
I had assumed they were just licensed under the 'D&D' brand.
If they had the logo, then YES, they are most certainly canon. 
EDIT: Ah, okay... just did some Googling - individual cards had individual logos (I had seen the packs which bore the 2nd edition D&D logo, but never tore any open). My bad. 
Funny, because I had a very similar argument with a D&D writer, concerning the Shades (which he claimed were from the Forgotten Realms). The write-up for them in the 2e Monster Manual Annual 4 bears the Greyhawk logo. That means they are canon to GH. A terrible (3e) error, and one we should rectify in 5e (by getting rid of them). 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2013 18:53:57 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 19:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Funny, because I had a very similar argument with a D&D writer, concerning the Shades (which he claimed were from the Forgotten Realms). The write-up for them in the 2e Monster Manual Annual 4 bears the Greyhawk logo. That means they are canon to GH. A terrible (3e) error, and one we should rectify in 5e (by getting rid of them).
That's a horribly stupid argument; by that "logic", elves and goblins are not part of the Forgotten Realms canon. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 19:48:03
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Lets not forget that Thunderstorm also appeared in the FR pewter miniatures set as well (along with El, Tristran & Robyn, 'The Magistar', Wulfgar, Drizzt, Bruenor,and Alias).
As an aside any remember what the wizard on the back of the box is called? (hmmm sounds like the FR trivia quiz thread again!)
Cheers
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 20:00:41
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quote:
As an aside any remember what the wizard on the back of the box is called? (hmmm sounds like the FR trivia quiz thread again!)
Sorry, Damian, all I could find online is 4E Spellfire card #382 (of 500). No name or stats are given for this wizard. I'm guessing Halaster, Khelben, Mordenkainen, even Azuth or Ao.
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[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Jan 2013 20:02:41 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 20:39:06
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I always thought that was Ao.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
That's a horribly stupid argument; by that "logic", elves and goblins are not part of the Forgotten Realms canon.
The argument I had about Shades was in terms of their being 'created for FR', which they most certainly were not (unless they were created by Ed in an old Dragon article, in which case EVERYTHING got shoe-horned into GH back then). The "lets get rid of them part" is just wishful thinking. 
BTW, getting rid of Goblins and elves is also another great idea - I am so on your side with that one.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2013 20:40:19 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 20:46:59
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I don't want to get rid of anything.
I actually like the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I always thought that was Ao.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
That's a horribly stupid argument; by that "logic", elves and goblins are not part of the Forgotten Realms canon.
The argument I had about Shades was in terms of their being 'created for FR', which they most certainly were not (unless they were created by Ed in an old Dragon article, in which case EVERYTHING got shoe-horned into GH back then). The "lets get rid of them part" is just wishful thinking.
BTW, getting rid of Goblins and elves is also another great idea - I am so on your side with that one.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 21:25:21
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quote:
Markustay
I always thought that was Ao.
Agreed, it's as good an identity as any random old diviner gazing at a world-scrying illusion. Ao would be a retcon of course, since he wasn't introduced until 2E. |
[/Ayrik] |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 21:26:26
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all guesses incorrect at the mo 
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 22:17:01
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They were just guesses, and don't really match any of the artwork for those characters in other sources. I can't recall seeing that image anywhere other than the back of the box (which I think I hadn't looked at for decades, ha).
I'm hoping Messrs James & James may choose to enlighten us. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 00:59:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm fairly certain the D&D cards are NOT canon to the Forgotten Realms.
I think the fact that the image was used on the cover of a FORGOTTEN REALMS product muddies the water somewhat, Markus, on the issue of whether this "Thunderstorm" is canon Realms.
I don't recall it ever being made entirely clear as to whether "Thunderstorm" might be a Realms character that's just never had any development, or simply a convenient gimmick to add to the front cover during the production of the Old Gray Box.
Either way, I'm inclined to believe that there is some degree of possible canon-status for Thunderstorm in the Realms as a result of this image usage. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1601 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 10:10:30
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If the definition of canon is right (I never read one before), it makes sense to consider the cards canon. As far as I know, three sets of cards were released, in 1991, 1992 and 1993, the two firsts with some 750 cards, if I recall rightly, and the last with almost 500 cards. They wore the descriptions of characters, magical items (some unique), monsters, series of traps, stats of FR cities, lists of the own collection and cards of NPCs with pictures and stats open for the DM to fill. The idea was that the DM would have a portable way of bringing NPCs, monsters and magic items (basically, any info) to his/her game.
Some of the cards were tied to specific settings, like Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, DragonLance and Ravenloft, while others were labeled simmply as "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2e", and theoretically could be used in any setting, or independently. The cards bore the logo of their settings. Some cards repeated the info with a different number and picture (I mean, there were two different cards on T-Rex, for example, one with one number and picture, the other with a new pic and number).
Some of those pictures were very nice, in my opinion. I don't know if you guys remember, but when I started participating here in CK I brought a picture of Guenhwyvar (one that resembled "the maltese falcon", accordingly to Markustay), and was asking about the artist. Well, that picture was comissioned specifically to a trading card. Of course, since the cards were collectible, there were famous pieces of previous known art, especially from the most known characters - like the Drizzt Do'Urden from Elmore's first cover of "The Crystal Shard" - and those paintings that were famous by the content of its image only.
Considering the cards canon is a bit complicated, because producing so many characters resulted in many nice NPCs, but also in some silly ideas, and I'm pretty sure the series was interrupted not only in the advent of Spellfire, but also because designers were running out of good ideas. And canonizing the cards is canonizing Frizzt and other characters and over-powered items. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 13:07:19
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Going by the only definition I've ever known of, The Hidden Lord is correct. The individual packets only bore the 'D&D 2nd edition' logo, but the faces of the cards had the individual world logos. The outside of the cardboard carton also had various logos on the side (normally you can't see the sides of those boxes in stores, since they are placed next to other boxes).
So, if I interpret that correctly, the entirety of the sets is considered 'D&D canon', and individual cards are considered canon for whatever setting they bear the logo for. The only exceptions to this rule are those specifically pointed-out (like the Double Diamond series and the Video Games). The comics ARE considered canon; I've never even heard of the Trading Cards being officially addressed (which means they fall under the general definition).
Personally, I never bothered with the cards or the comics, which is weird because I've collected both from comic companies.
What would be nice is if they had useable cards (for the game) in 5e - were the originals functional? I wouldn't mind generic stuff I could just throw at my players (bad guys and items). If they could somehow come up with simplified system (for NPCs/monsters) similar to that used in Warmachine that would be pretty sweet (you place the card in a clear protector, and then use dry-erase markers to check off damage and what-not). The less bookkeeping a DM needs to keep track of, the more he/she can concentrate on the story and the better the experience will be for everyone (IMHO).
EDIT: I see they did have some sort of cards for the 4e game - I was completely unaware of those. Anyone know anything about them?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2013 13:32:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 15:33:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Going by the only definition I've ever known of, The Hidden Lord is correct. The individual packets only bore the 'D&D 2nd edition' logo, but the faces of the cards had the individual world logos. The outside of the cardboard carton also had various logos on the side (normally you can't see the sides of those boxes in stores, since they are placed next to other boxes).
So, if I interpret that correctly, the entirety of the sets is considered 'D&D canon', and individual cards are considered canon for whatever setting they bear the logo for. The only exceptions to this rule are those specifically pointed-out (like the Double Diamond series and the Video Games). The comics ARE considered canon; I've never even heard of the Trading Cards being officially addressed (which means they fall under the general definition).
Personally, I never bothered with the cards or the comics, which is weird because I've collected both from comic companies.
What would be nice is if they had useable cards (for the game) in 5e - were the originals functional? I wouldn't mind generic stuff I could just throw at my players (bad guys and items). If they could somehow come up with simplified system (for NPCs/monsters) similar to that used in Warmachine that would be pretty sweet (you place the card in a clear protector, and then use dry-erase markers to check off damage and what-not). The less bookkeeping a DM needs to keep track of, the more he/she can concentrate on the story and the better the experience will be for everyone (IMHO).
EDIT: I see they did have some sort of cards for the 4e game - I was completely unaware of those. Anyone know anything about them?
I think the way Warmachine and Hordes puts all the relevant information on cards like that is one of the strengths of their game system. That, and how much fun it is to do something evil like turn your opponent's jacks into a barrier that his other troops can't get around... (Love that Voltaic Snare!   )
I saw, and may have, one or two of those 4E cards. As I understood it, they are basically props -- kind of a visual representation of an item, as well as more tangible proof of the possession of it. I could be mistaken, though, as I am no fan of 4E and have had little to do with it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Jan 2013 15:42:48 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 15:49:58
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Whether one considers the trading card to be canon or not is irrelevant. As I stated earlier, Thunderstorm also appears in the AD&D Forgotten Realms miniatures set by Ral Partha (along with Elminster, Drizzt, Alias, and other famous heroes of that period).
http://www.dndlead.com/ral-partha/ADD/10-550.jpg |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 16:35:48
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Who the hell is Robyn?
Weird that I never had those minis - they must have come out before I was a fan of the Realms (during a period in the early 90's when I wasn't buying ANY more minis).
And I'm not precisely understanding your meaning here, Brian - are minis considered 'canon'? If so, I find that odd (using THL's argument that art is just that - art).
So that guy is canon because A) He appeared on THE box, B) He appeared on a card bearing the FR logo, and C) He appeared in a miniatures set featuring other 'Realms notables'. Although I would have to concur that any one of those things make him canon, it still seems he 'slipped through the back door', as it were.
EDIT: Taking a second look, I am almost positive I had the Magister figure - were they also released separately?
EDIT2: The mystery deepens. Apparently he is important enough to go in the 'quintessential' set of FR personalities, and yet appears in neither the Heroes Lorebook nor Hall of Heroes. Important and yet not a hero... hmmmmm... Villain? Or is he just so damn neutral he is uninteresting? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2013 16:44:30 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 16:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who the hell is Robyn?
She's a druid, and one of the main characters from the Moonshae trilogy. She also appears, though not as prominently, in the Druidhome trilogy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 16:45:40
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| Wow - completely forgot about her. Thanks for jogging my memory. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 16:50:27
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quote:
Brian R. James
Whether one considers the trading card to be canon or not is irrelevant.
quote:
Markustay
And I'm not precisely understanding your meaning here, Brian - are minis considered 'canon'?
I think his meaning was that arguing about "canon" here is meaningless. Official products are official "canon" until contradicted by later official "canon". You may not play with minis and figs (I don't) or collect the cards (I never did) or read the comics (I never did that either), but they are all still "canon" products.
Having said that, I do agree from the descriptions here that the data on the cards is literally card-filler, not consistent game lore. (And didn't I already point out an inconsistency?) I wouldn't ever use most of these cards in my game settings, things like Frizzt Bo'urden are just too inane (and insulting), things like Thunderstorm are cheesy and a bit skewed but are hardly world-breaking.quote:
Ayrik
Why argue about canon which so few people know exists or can even access?
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[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2013 17:01:19 |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 18:31:42
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Same artwork on the Choose Your Own Adventure "Spawn of Dragonspear". In that product the hero is Kelson Darktreader
Just thought I would muddy the waters some. |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
Edited by - Thrasymachus on 25 Jan 2013 18:34:01 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 19:14:46
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Awesome, let's all debate whether AD&D Super Endless Quest and "Choose Your Own Adventure"-style gamebooks are considered canon.
I'm unfamiliar with the material, but it doesn't seem impossible that a fellow named Kelson Darktreader chose (or was forced to accept) the Thunderstorm moniker. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 19:23:45
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Kelson Darktreader is Thunderstorm's (Dûd Onahorz) long-lost twin brother, who was separated at birth. He was captured by Thayan Slavers and sold to pirates in the Nelanther, who lost tack of him in the slave-markets of Skullport.
All he remembers is his tribal name Darktreader (you know... like thunderstorm). The Kelson part got added by his adopted (warrior) mother who trained him in the martial arts.
The really weird thing is, even though they've never met, he dresses and acts very much like his brother. His horse is even named 'Zephyr'.
Okay, all fixed... can we move on to more important discussions now, like the color of Alusair's favorite small clothes? Inquiring minds want to know.
(and to wax serious for a moment, is there any indication what-so-ever that the character on the cover is the one inside the book? It could just be an artistic representation of a generic 'FR fighter') |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2013 20:54:35 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 19:30:30
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| Thunderstorm is on the FR0 cover yet not found anywhere within the box. Perhaps he just rides around from cover to cover. |
[/Ayrik] |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 19:44:37
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| It was the best cover of all FR campaign settings , for me..... |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 20:00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Thunderstorm is on the FR0 cover yet not found anywhere within the box. Perhaps he just rides around from cover to cover.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 20:56:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Thunderstorm is on the FR0 cover yet not found anywhere within the box. Perhaps he just rides around from cover to cover.
And yet another
I literally LOL'd |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lanessar
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 22:32:34
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I thought I'd give this a go. This was all in a verbal discussion (since I had the same question when I bought the boxed set) I had with Keith getting the poster signed at a convention in about 1989.
He said the painting didn't represent a character in FR canon. He had done the painting some time before and it was used for the boxed set, the painting was originally named "Horseman by the Lake".
The "Thunderstorm" and the rest came after, but the painting itself was not of a specific character (nor was it originally done for the Forgotten Realms specifically). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 00:08:23
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And Markustay said............
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He isn't anybody - its just a piece of art (that someone at TSR liked and slapped on the OGB). I think you may be reading too much into it.
Ding Ding Ding... we have a winna!!!
(yes, I am bowing to an empty room right now... silly me) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 01:19:04
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Nope, we have a loser.
Thunderstorm was canonised with the Forgotten Realms trading card.
But thanks for playing. |
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Cover of Old Gray Box
