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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 01:58:53
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Yeah, the material we use to make countertops. Although most of our "absolute black granite" is synthesized through industrial fuse-sintering processes and is actually much harder and tougher than natural slabs of black granite (which is still quarried, although unethical producers use chemical stains/dyes to sell inferior granite as premium black granite).
I've noted a lot of black granite (wizard) towers scattered around the land, obviously because it's a richly symbolic trope. The Boareskyr Bridge is described as being carved from a monolithic chunk of black granite, as are various monuments and "pagan" idols and elf droppings scattered in every hidden corner of the land.
But where does it come from? Exactly where in the Realms is this stone mined and quarried? It's heavy and tends to be brittle, so is probably used "locally" because transport by ship and wagon is sure to damage some percentage of this valuable cargo.
Is it found in quantity anywhere under the sands of the Anauroch, in Vaasa, in the general proximity of Mirabar or elsewhere in the North? I ask because I'd like to plop a cold black granite fortress on top of an intimidating little mountain range. A fortress of black stone, rusted iron spikes, skeletons, icicles, and mud-trampled snow ... it'll be glorious to behold. Er, for no particular reason, hehe, just because. 
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[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Jan 2013 02:16:46
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:16:42
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| What about black marble? Is it real? Where can it be found? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 05:14:45
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True marble is almost always a light colour, ranging from gleaming or translucent pure white through pieces of the rainbow towards brown-grey/gray*, blue-grey/gray*, or blue-black. Most varieties have veins of precious metals, crystal flakes, or nodes of other minerals irregularly submerged within them which sometimes "leech" darker colours into the adjacent marble stone; sometimes creating striking dark contrasts.
"Black Marble" does not naturally exist in our world (although it may exist in the Realms). Various patina and niello processes can chemically stain marble to a darker tone, but this effect is usually minimized as the objective is to enhance the colour of metallic veins and impurities. Ashford Black Marble is indeed black (or at least dark) and roughly equivalent to marble, but it is actually a different mineral formed through different processes - and more importantly for most, it has different availability and lesser value.
* The difference is that grey is a colour while gray is a color. I'm a demicanadian, so google treats me differently, ha! |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 05:20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Yeah, the material we use to make countertops. Although most of our "absolute black granite" is synthesized through industrial fuse-sintering processes and is actually much harder and tougher than natural slabs of black granite (which is still quarried, although unethical producers use chemical stains/dyes to sell inferior granite as premium black granite).
I've noted a lot of black granite (wizard) towers scattered around the land, obviously because it's a richly symbolic trope. The Boareskyr Bridge is described as being carved from a monolithic chunk of black granite, as are various monuments and "pagan" idols and elf droppings scattered in every hidden corner of the land.
But where does it come from? Exactly where in the Realms is this stone mined and quarried? It's heavy and tends to be brittle, so is probably used "locally" because transport by ship and wagon is sure to damage some percentage of this valuable cargo.
Is it found in quantity anywhere under the sands of the Anauroch, in Vaasa, in the general proximity of Mirabar or elsewhere in the North? I ask because I'd like to plop a cold black granite fortress on top of an intimidating little mountain range. A fortress of black stone, rusted iron spikes, skeletons, icicles, and mud-trampled snow ... it'll be glorious to behold. Er, for no particular reason, hehe, just because.
Hey if you are a wizard powerful enough to no longer hide behind a cleric or fighter to be able to build your own tower a few simple spells will take care of that. Transmutation the best way I would think. Rock to mud, reversed should give you all the rock you need *Grin*
Oh you might need to add color to the mud before you turn it into rock. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 05:31:43
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| On the wizard's tower side of things, perhaps some of them were made from material imported (if that's the right word) from the Elemental Plane of Earth? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 05:36:57
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Yes, transmutations can duplicate our synthetic absolute black granite. I was thinking something more along the lines of pouring powdered granite ingredients into a melt, then casting glassteel after it cools. Or just wall of stone.
But the natural item does not radiate magic and is not vulnerable to self-decompose after being hit by dispel magic. Natural material is also a lot more practical for non-spellcasters, not an issue with a wizard's tower (assuming the wizard is home when his tower is attacked) but an important consideration when normal people craft something like a statue, well, or altar. Stone can be teleported but that would take *years* of spellcasting to build even a modest-sized keep.
If no "canon" sites for black granite are located reasonably close to my points of interest then I'll just invent something new. Perhaps the runoff mineral slag from an adamantine foundry is an exceptionally dense, hard, glossy black stone? That would still fit my fortress quite nicely, though I'd have to throw in some rusty mining and smelting equipment. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Jan 2013 05:40:00 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 05:37:08
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| Oh portals clearly can be used, teleport object also an option. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 05:41:40
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| Imported elemental material seems promising. Would it be detectable/vulnerable to any sort of magical or elemental attacks where a "native" material would not? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 05:53:09
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quote:
Enhanced magic. Spells and spell-like abilities that use, manipulate, or create earth or stone (including those of the Earth domain) are both empowered and extended (as if the Empower Spell and Extend Spell metamagic feats had been used on them, but the spells don’t require higher-level slots). Spells and spell-like abilities that are already empowered or extended are unaffected by this benefit.
You just need transport. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 06:38:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Imported elemental material seems promising. Would it be detectable/vulnerable to any sort of magical or elemental attacks where a "native" material would not?
Boy, I'm not up to speed on the rules to be able to answer this.
My gut tells me the imported material would behave just as you'd expect native material to behave, save that to a dwarf or anyone with a love of stone the raw, freshly imported material would be instantly recognized as pure awesome and of the highest quality. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 07:19:04
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| Damn those rock-humping dwarves, taking the mystery out of everything! |
[/Ayrik] |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 07:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Damn those rock-humping dwarves, taking the mystery out of everything!
I hasten to add a dwarf might be impressed by the stone, but he or she would be equally unimpressed with a wizard who can't be bothered to go and find good stone the right way.
Why reach beyond the world for what's already underfoot? (Well, somewhere underfoot.) |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 17:16:52
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There are, of course, some difficulties involved in moving such a quantity of stone.
Consider the awesome Getty Center near Los Angelos, California. It is primarily constructed of 30" (76cm) cubes of quarried travertine, each weighing about 250lbs (115kg). The entire castle-like structure used some 16,000 tons (14,500 metric tonnes) of stone and basically took over a decade to complete. How much stone can a wizard and his spells and pets carry? That's a lot of interplanar trips.
The inner planes are also home to some nasty critters. Natives of Elemental Earth tend to be unwelcoming to interlopers who poach or harvest the resource. Elementals are far more of a problem than local kobolds and trolls. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 18:08:17
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Well it does depend on level and degree of power one has.
Also you can just get dress stone to use as facing, done well no one would not know the difference.
Teleport object, 50 pounds per level, a 15th level can teleport 750 pounds 75 cubic feet. That should be enough for a days work.
As for dealing with the locals, a deal might be made, even not should have enough defensive and offensive power to deal with any that does not want to make a deal. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 18:14:06
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quote:
Kentinal
Also you can just get dress stone to use as facing, done well no one would not know the difference.
Those rock-humping dwarves would know. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 18:19:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Kentinal
Also you can just get dress stone to use as facing, done well no one would not know the difference.
Those rock-humping dwarves would know.
Hire some of them to do the work *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 19:03:14
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Looked at spell list, if you do not want to go the the best source I have a different way to do this.
Stone wall though the stonewall is thin, but then you can stone shape it. All you need as a component is Arcane Material Component A small block of granite. After you make your first stone wall of black granite, You can Sore shape it into components of more small blocks of black granite and build your wall.
These are lower level spells as well *Grin* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 19:06:14
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Lets see... do people in the Reals import marble/stone from 'far away'?
quote:
Greyspace, pg.50 - a SJ product about the GH setting:
"Whatever process or catastrophe shaped Ginsel into its present form had a strange effect on the planet's geology. Forms of hard, metamorphic rock similar to marble are native to Ginsel the likes of which have never been seen anywhere in the universe. <snip> Rumors claim that one entire wall of the palace in the city of Rauthaven on Toril is made of Ginsel Marble; knowledgeable stoneworkers deny this is possible, because the value of so much rock would be immeasurable."
Apparently, people from FR have been known to import their stone/materials from VERY far away.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
True marble is almost always a light colour, ranging from gleaming or translucent pure white through pieces of the rainbow towards brown-grey/gray*, blue-grey/gray*, or blue-black. Most varieties have veins of precious metals, crystal flakes, or nodes of other minerals irregularly submerged within them which sometimes "leech" darker colours into the adjacent marble stone; sometimes creating striking dark contrasts.
This is brilliant - fantasy marble could contain veins of mithril, adamantium, etc, and also bits of fantasy crystal/quartz/semi-precious stones in it.
I'm picturing a royal blue marble with veins of Mithril in it now.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 19:43:12
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| My players were once greatly impressed by a module's description/artwork of walls made from slabs of glossy black marble with veins of silver, emerald, and ruby. Impressed enough to spend exhorbitant resources and effort in obtaining a large quantity for their own projects, and eventually construct a matching marble golem guardian. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 01:21:10
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Props for color-coordinating their lair - good fashion sense is so hard to find in dungeon design these days. 
And now I'm picturing a tiefling version of Tim Gunn clapping his hands and telling laborers, "make it work people!"
Extreme Dungeon Makeover: Realms Edition  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jan 2013 01:21:34 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 01:29:56
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| Interior design just become or hire an illusionist. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 01:48:50
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| Odd you should mention that. I teased the PCs relentlessly about their fashion sense and décor (through a pair of effeminate NPC bard-architects they had hired) ... mostly because of their acerbic responses. They firmly maintained the golem was just better "camouflaged" to gain combat advantage. |
[/Ayrik] |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 17:13:14
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I like this thread. I don't recall seeing any serious exploration of rock types/whereabouts in Realmslore.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Props for color-coordinating their lair - good fashion sense is so hard to find in dungeon design these days.
Classic.
quote:
And now I'm picturing a tiefling version of Tim Gunn clapping his hands and telling laborers, "make it work people!"
Oh, man. You had to put Tiefling Tim Gunn in my head. My imagination will never be the same.
Ahhh! I have the Markusmind. Make it stop! |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 18:19:41
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A fire mage might have found a 'recipe' for black granite manufacture. With enough heat, water and stone a fire mage can forge his own rocks with just the right atributes. Add spells of transmutation and a mage can get as gaudy as he wants with his building blocks.
Also, Mercanes will sell Black Granite if your price is right. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 18:30:51
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quote:
Bladewind
Also, Mercanes will sell Black Granite if your price is right.
Do you mean they specifically sell black granite, or that they sell black granite under the umbrella of "everything"?
I can't see spelljammer (ship) transport being very efficient for such quantities of stone, unless just moving it between two distant lands on Toril (which is really still just ship transport, albeit much faster). Although "local" spelljamming does invite a new array of adventure possibilities. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 18:44:18
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Mercanes would atleast know of a location where natural black granite is quarry-able, albeit off-planet.
Though I don't know how spelljamming ships work to know their use as granite block transport, I think having enough lift to escape the atmosphere would make hauling black granite seem like a relatively easy task. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 18:56:00
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If you take into account 'towing' (which with RW physics, something quite tiny CAN tow something quite enormous in space, so long as the tiny thing had 'thrust', and the other isn't held in place by other forces, like gravity). Even in (water) shipping it works this way, but to a much lesser degree; HUGE barges are towed by small boats, and I've personally seen a fairly decent sized boat being towed by a jetski.
SO, the Mercane (or whoever) find a big chunk of granite/marble/whatever in space (or have it moved to space by several vessels or one operating over time), and then they tow it to where they need to go. The normal cargo-capacity of vessels becomes a non-issue.
Now delivery - thats a whole 'nother problem. Be careful to stipulate how you want that handled, otherwise you may have a granite mountain dropped on your head after your final payment is made. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 18:59:25
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Most spelljammers carry about the same cargo tonnage as standard ships, and travel times between worlds are roughly comparable to travel times between continents. Although the ride might arguably be a little bumpier overall, which could damage some of the cargo.
I've never built a stone structure like a castle or pyramid. But it seems to me that (regardless how detailed the plans might be) there would be advantages to having quick communication between the construction guys and the quarry guys. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 19:14:41
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If you were building a pyramid from materials gotten from space, wouldn't it be easier - especially using SJ rules - to simply build the damn thing is space and tow it to where you want it? (and now I am picturing ready-made pyramids dropping from the sky).
And now this has me thinking - why not construct something in the Earth Elemental Plane? You have plenty of free labor - Earth Elementals! It solves all your problems - you just have to have magic available that can shift that thing back to your plane when its done. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 19:50:17
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Large-scalar fixed structures, things like castles and pyramids, involve tremendous mass and stresses distributed across many smaller pieces in carefully balanced ways, gravitational forces and even the foundation/terrain are vital components of large structures. A pyramid would simply crumble apart if you somehow gently rested it on a different flat facing.
I'm not saying it's impossible. Castles float in space and the astral and the inner planes. But they are constructed differently, always require magic to sustain their integrity, and they are probably impossible to land on a planet without sustaining massive damage. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 20:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Kentinal
Also you can just get dress stone to use as facing, done well no one would not know the difference.
Those rock-humping dwarves would know.
just because you saw a dwarf female with a phallic shaped, well polished stone implement doesn't mean that every woman that also met said dwarf female didn't order a similar implement the following week after they had their little party. Nearly every race in Faerun includes some rock-humpers. Of course, dwarf females consider it some kind of religious experience, but that's another story. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Black Granite
