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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 18:44:30
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What role should demigods play in 5e?
Traditionally Demigods have been more accessible then higher Gods.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 20:24:25
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I'd use them as 'living' legends, as they are mostly from mortal origin. They are usually found walking the grounds of Toril every once in a while even if they already own a personal domain in the astral planes near Toril. Their relationships with their divine peers makes demigods quite hesitant to directly influence the lands of Faerun. Their singular avatars are likely to sire aasimar or tiefling children among the populace in this phase of their divinity.
Good examples of this mentality can (or could) be seen in Drasek Riven, Gwaeron Windstrom, Bast/Sharess, Selvetarm and Gargauth. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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daarkknight
Seeker
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 23:53:17
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I would like to seem them fill that "middle ground," if you will. Someone, friend or foe, that is accessible for players. In many ways, epic characters or particular angels and devils/demons are already on that power level.
It would add a nice mythological feel to things. |
"That's it!"
Quote attributed to Talor Stormhammer, paladin of Helm, when fighting a frost giant. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 00:02:24
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| I'd like to see more demigods in 5e, but weren't they "exarchs" in 4e? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 00:15:32
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| They were only "Heroes" in AD&D 1E. Perhaps more accurately called "Super Heroes", same as other characters except for some perks (at least one stat 19+, no class or dual-/multi-class restrictions, sometimes a special/unique skill or power of some sort, often some kind of other-planar bloodline, typically small army of followers/worshippers) ... another way of saying they were basically standard 3E characters in 1E, pretty powerful but not really demigods. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 02:46:48
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| I'd like to see exarch not used in any form. It's not an intuitive word. Demipower or demigod works well enough so why change it? I'd also like to see a slew of demipowers added to the Realms for small cults, different takes on other deities etc. I mean who wouldn't want to see a few new goblin-kin or dwarven deities? Everyone's heard of Khedrun's Vale so maybe there's a demipower or heroine who has a following etc. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 02:59:44
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| My mind is stuck on planescape Demigods where they are Powers and still superpowerful compared to a mortal. (Like Kiaransalee ruling an infinite plane of the abyss, etc. ) Although I would prefer they use the term "minor" or something since "Demi" means half, doesn't it? A demigod should be like a Bhaalspawn or Iyachtu Xvim. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 03:13:16
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| I've seen exarch used to indicate an order between mortal and demigod, what 3E people might call "quasi-divine rank 0". |
[/Ayrik] |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 03:24:36
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'd like to see more demigods in 5e, but weren't they "exarchs" in 4e?
Wasn't Exarch a level below a Demigod and onyl Quasi Divine? Like a 0 Level divinity? While Demigods were level 1-5.
I want the Mulhorandi pantheon back!!! |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 03:49:47
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Demigods are half mortal and half God in D&D, but a half a God is like being half a supernova. The Mortal part means they're more approachable, understandably, relatable then full gods, who are more conceptual in nature, and more Alien in mind set.
QuasiGods are more like Superheroes, they have the blood of Gods enhancing them, but its so work they're not Gods at all, hence why they have no Divine Rank and can't grant spells.
Think of it this way, imagine Gods are like a T-Rex, Demigods are a half T-Rex and half Human Hybred, and a Quasi God is just a human whose recessive genes became active enough he grew scales.
As for Exarchs, those where one of the worst ideas of 5e, because no one what they were for certain, were they Demigods, Saints, random lt. Of the Gods, other stuff? No body knew for sure and 4e material was contradictory and confusing.
Also confusion over whether they could grant,spells or not.
On top of that they added Exarchs that weren't part of the Pantheon of the World Chart in the novel and other sources adding more confusion.
Use the term Demigod, Saint, and Quasigods instead for there respective beings instead of Exarchs so people actually understand what your talking about.
Plus an Exarch is actually from the Russian,Othodoxy Church and has no relation to any of this and while White Wolfs Mage Game has Godlike Exarch's, it not the same, and will only add confusion.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:06:01
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From the original and unaltered "Year of the Ageless One" article on Wizards:-
quote:
The exarchs are often called demigods or heroes, and many are ascended mortal servants of greater gods, brought up from the world to serve as agents of their divine masters. Many, but not all, attract worshipers of their own, and they have some ability to grant spells, but are more often simply conduits from the mortal world to the attention of the higher gods.
Additionally, Brian James confirmed pretty early one that exarchs [just as demigods were in previous editions] are immortal. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:24:44
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| So basically exarchs are equivalent, in power terms, to Chosen? |
[/Ayrik] |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:36:03
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| What about the sons of Annam? Progenitors of the Giant races, Somehow I don't see them as full Gods- more like demi Gods yet they should have been full Gods since they were spawned from two Gods.... |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:53:56
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Exarchs are equilvant to everything including the Kitchen Sink, Exarch of Martha Stewart :p
As for Brian James he did a good a attempt at making sense of it, but other sources like Divine Power contradict him.
I say just let the term die or at least make it a footnote and go back to the consistant and easy to define terms like Demigod. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 05:08:31
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| I prefer my exarchs to be somewhere between mortal and demigod. Mystra's Chosen would be a good example. For demigods, I prefer that they remain as they were in prior editions: immortal entities with a portfolio and the ability to cast spells. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 06:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
So basically exarchs are equivalent, in power terms, to Chosen?
Well, the FRCG [pg. 72] states that "The post-Spellplague world includes no Chosen who are not exarchs."
Make of that what you will.
...
I think it's important to note that a Chosen may ascend to the position of an Exarch. Creating new Chosen is still possible, and they don't necessarily have to be an Exarch -- it's just something they might eventually come to. However, judging from that FRCG quote, the current lot of Chosen have obviously ascended to the rank of Exarch. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 06:24:07
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| Wasn't the term exarch created for 4e? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 11:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Wasn't the term exarch created for 4e?
The term existed elsewhere. It was adapted by WotC for 4E. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 14:20:28
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The way I understand it, the term 'exarch' is/was an 'umbrella term' that covered EVERYTHING between mortal and truly divine (deity) status. While demigods are the best-known group that got lumped-in, there were also Chosen, and other 'agents' of powers (like archangels), and also Fiend lords.
For a few years now (before 4e) I have been using the term 'Tezu' - a word in some Ancient Celestial proto-tongue - to define that power tier. For me, 'Exarch' is just another word for something I had already envisioned. I also use 'Tanar' to describe elemental beings of the same power-level (and I have lots of - probably obvious - suffixes and prefixes to further define them).
So if silly mortals have decided the new 'buzz word' for these types of beings is 'Exarch', so be it... it doesn't effect me, or the games I run, in the least. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2013 14:21:17 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 20:34:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way I understand it, the term 'exarch' is/was an 'umbrella term' that covered EVERYTHING between mortal and truly divine (deity) status.
Which was one of the main gripes people had with it.
It was so broad as to become meaningless when it was used for everything from the heroic tier gardener mowing the lawn of the main temple to the epic tier demigod equivalent.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 20:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way I understand it, the term 'exarch' is/was an 'umbrella term' that covered EVERYTHING between mortal and truly divine (deity) status.
Which was one of the main gripes people had with it.
It was so broad as to become meaningless when it was used for everything from the heroic tier gardener mowing the lawn of the main temple to the epic tier demigod equivalent.
Kinda like the term Chosen.  |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 23:39:46
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Exarch and Chosen don't bug me so much. Proxy does.
It's not so much about the terminology, using different words is no big deal. It's about the ambiguity and complete lack of definition or consistency behind the terminology. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 01:20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way I understand it, the term 'exarch' is/was an 'umbrella term' that covered EVERYTHING between mortal and truly divine (deity) status.
Which was one of the main gripes people had with it.
It was so broad as to become meaningless when it was used for everything from the heroic tier gardener mowing the lawn of the main temple to the epic tier demigod equivalent.
Eh. I tend to think a lot of folk place entirely too much emphasis on the actual term of a particular ranking like "Exarch" and/or "Chosen." Just because that's how they're defined in terms of the rules... doesn't necessarily mean that's how they should be described in the setting Realmslore. It's just been an unfortunate circumstance that these ranking terms are used in the lore because it makes connecting these characters with the rules much easier.
Personally, I'd prefer the terms "Exarch" and "Chosen" to remain solely as rules-related elements, and have the setting lore reflect actual specific terms for them based on local cultural and/or historical trends. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 01:35:15
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I like that idea, Sage. Exarchs/Chosen/Proxies might be much like artifacts or deities in the context of each being a completely unique entity, have more individual traits than common traits when compared against others.
No two Chosen are completely alike in terms of power; they each have some "special gifts" or abilities which sets them apart. Exarchs seem to be completely variable, half of them are monsters. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 04:26:04
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| All I know is that the gods who were demigods (and some lesser deities, IIRC) were labelled exarch in 4e. And yes, technically, demigod is half god. Like one parent was divine (Greek myth is full of this), or they obtain some semblance of godhood, like Selvatarm. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 14:15:17
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| I don't like the idea of Chosen being exarchs or demigods. I'd much rather see them as unique, powerful individuals, like a wizard or priest with a few special abilities. Elminster may be able to stand toe to toe with a demigod, but I think it steals something of his character if he were to be labeled as one. |
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The Madmage
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 14:42:05
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| I always equated the Exarchs to be similar to Proxies from the Planescape setting. Beings that had a direct channel to their god and could be considered to be speaking in its stead. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 21:04:46
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You have to look at a couple different sources to get the full picture here; the 4e player's guide, dm's guide, FRPG, FRCG, and Divine Power, but it basically breaks down like this.
Under 4e definitions, exarchs and Demigods are essentially the same thing. The difference is that an exarch is subservient to a more powerful deity where as a demigod is independent. They are often, but not always, chosen from mortal races who've attained great power(reached epic levels), whether humanoid or monstrous. An exarch is expected to serve a greater deity more or less for eternity in their divine realm. They're the champion of their armies, the majordomo of their dominion.
Chosen are mortals selected by the gods to carry out tasks for the gods on the mortal plane and are given various powers, depending on the deity and their particular needs for their particular task, to carry out that task. Chosen can be "unchosen" pretty much at any time, but they can also be lifted up and given the rank of exarch, or awarded such upon their death.
The primary difference between chosen and exarch is that chosen serve in life on the mortal plane, where as exarchs serve in the divine realm. A chosen becoming an exarch is a reward for a job well done, not a necessity. When the FRPG said "There are no chosen that are not also exarchs", what that meant was that all the chosen from before the time skip- Fzoul, Obould, etc, had died and been raised to the level of exarch in the interim. The idea was that the only chosen would be the player characters, should they reach epic levels and choose the Chosen epic destiny for their characters.
Of course, with the revelation that Elminster and a couple of the Seven Sister's were still alive, just depowered, that turned out to be not entirely true. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 21:19:37
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quote:
Chosen of Asmodeus
... Chosen can be "unchosen" pretty much at any time, but they can also be lifted up and given the rank of exarch, or awarded such upon their death.
I think each Chosen/Exarch/Proxy/etc is effectively unique. It may be impossible for Mystra's Chosen (and Magisters) to ever resume their lives as mortals, while Mask's Chosen might need to somehow escape from the shadows, Tyr's and Torm's Chosen might yield their tenures after fulfilling their contractual duties, Waukeen's Chosen might need to haggle for their lives.
I think the deity can elect to demote their Chosen any time, but I wonder what happens when the Chosen has actually become a sufficiently established element of the faith that it can be sustained independently. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 09:48:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I'd use them as 'living' legends, as they are mostly from mortal origin. They are usually found walking the grounds of Toril every once in a while even if they already own a personal domain in the astral planes near Toril. Their relationships with their divine peers makes demigods quite hesitant to directly influence the lands of Faerun. Their singular avatars are likely to sire aasimar or tiefling children among the populace in this phase of their divinity.
Good examples of this mentality can (or could) be seen in Drasek Riven, Gwaeron Windstrom, Bast/Sharess, Selvetarm and Gargauth.
That's what I'd do too. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 01:39:55
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Not sure if I'm going to entirely answer the OPs question but in my homebrew I divide deities into Minor/Lesser/Major/Greater gods. I don't like the classification Intermediate for a god because it seems somehow counter-intuitive to me and my classifications seem more sensible to me.
What most refer to as demigods (in reference to the game rules) I instead call minor gods. Instead, demigod is a term reserved solely for a being who was both a mortal and a divine (or divine "type" of) parent. They may or may not be immortal but are NOT gods and cannot grant spells. In 3e terms they would have a divine rank of "0" (although I don't use that system) and are on par with other semi-divine beings such as Mystra's Chosen (and Saints, quasi-deities, etc).
I actually struggle with the use of gods in my homebrew. Like the myriad races in the game I sometimes feel the Realms is overrun with deities. And yet, I actually like the idea of regional deities of every stripe and color under the sun.
So, to try and answer the OPs question. Minor deities are just that...deities...complete with their own home planes, temples, priests and followers in the Realms. They walk the world a bit more than the other gods (the better to increase their following). But, I dont have them directly ruling over any cities or kingdoms unless they are VERY new to their divinity and are in the process of transitioning power to another while they attempt to move on and establish themselves in Pantheon. I actually didn't care for the Pharonic Pantheon ruling Mulhorand in a direct sense...though their avatars doing the ruling is fine. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Demigods in 5e
