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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 23:04:47
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On Archeron there are two cube-domains locked in an eternal conflict, Nishrek controlled by Gruumshs orc petitioners and Clangor controlled by Maglubiyets goblin petitioners. I think most of the orcs and goblinoid races are interlopers from these realms.
No clue wich of the creator races made first contact with these planar domains, but I'd say humans are a strong contender because they were initially the weakest creator race and subsequently the most likely to have sought planar allies to combat other dominant races in the Dawn Ages. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 03:31:06
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I honestly know a greater amount of information about orcs of Thar...but even they orginated from portals.
I don't think any race intended for Orcs to be in Faerun. I don't think they were intentionally brought to Faerun either. I'm inclined to think that a Creator Race (and by the position of the Mountain Orcs homeland, I believe it would be most likely the Sarrukh or Aearee) created portals to other worlds where they either gained resources or even that they colonized. I'm most inclined to say it as the Sarrukh, as the North was inhabited by orcs in even the very earliest writings of the elves in the same area...and orc history states "we have always been here". The elves pushed orcs out of lands to take them when they came to the north...and so did dwarves much later.
Orcs, unfortunately, can be compared to bacteria/viruses in that they will go where they find a place to go by whatever means they have to get there!
As to your question about many portals: the Sarrukh may have created many portals because the use of a single portal might have restricted their access: they were more likely to build a portal from each of their holdings to the interesting point much like we build airports.
If someone wanted to travel to England from the United States, they wouldn't want to drive all the way from Georgia to New York before they were able to get on a plane to get to England...instead, we build an airport in Atlanta that can go directly from Atlanta to London.
So too for portal creation; the Sarrukh (who were often in competition against each other) would have built numerous portals to a world...then their civilization fell...later an orc group on a different world found several of the portals and poured through them. To prevent MORE orcs to come into Faerun, the orcs with the cool new spacious home closed the portals behind them (i.e. like in Stargate...or by simply collapsing them).
As for the Thayd question:
The Grey Orcs are far different than the Mountain Orcs...far different indeed. Who is to say, however, that the first orcs that came to Faerun caused a weakness in their kind on their homeworld that resulted in the Grey Orcs then becoming dominant before also being brought to Faerun through other gates.
I tend to think that the two orc races come from different worlds though...not because I have proof...but because I like to think of Mountain Orcs as a sort of "caveman orc" while Grey Orcs are higher on the ladder of evolution for orcs...and there isn't enough time between the two groups coming to Faerun to cause such radical changes in their physical abilities.
I could easily be wrong though, because only a mere 20,000 years ago, the average human was about 6' tall and would rip apart a modern NFL linebacker with his strength...and I'm not talking about Neanderthal but Homo-sapiens.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 11 Jan 2013 03:33:25 |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 05:33:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
As to your question about many portals: the Sarrukh may have created many portals because the use of a single portal might have restricted their access: they were more likely to build a portal from each of their holdings to the interesting point much like we build airports.
If someone wanted to travel to England from the United States, they wouldn't want to drive all the way from Georgia to New York before they were able to get on a plane to get to England...instead, we build an airport in Atlanta that can go directly from Atlanta to London.
Fans of D'ni (and well, just common sense) know that such portals are vulnerable points within the security of your nation. As such it is likely that the portals would have been surrounded by heavy military complexes on both sides. For further security it would make sense to have domestic portals (where less security is required) and then interstellar portals (where more security is required).
In the example above, rather than have an airport that connects Atlanta to London. You could have an airport that connects Atlanta to New York and then have a portal in New York that connects to London. I'm going to presume that creating portals over short distances is easier then creating portals over long distances. This could be completely wrong. But if true, by only having one portal to another world, you have a cost savings in addition to better security (at the very least you have a cost savings in that you only need security for one complex that connects to interstellar worlds rather than having security for two complexes that connect to interstellar worlds). |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 12:50:20
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
As to your question about many portals: the Sarrukh may have created many portals because the use of a single portal might have restricted their access: they were more likely to build a portal from each of their holdings to the interesting point much like we build airports.
If someone wanted to travel to England from the United States, they wouldn't want to drive all the way from Georgia to New York before they were able to get on a plane to get to England...instead, we build an airport in Atlanta that can go directly from Atlanta to London.
Fans of D'ni (and well, just common sense) know that such portals are vulnerable points within the security of your nation. As such it is likely that the portals would have been surrounded by heavy military complexes on both sides. For further security it would make sense to have domestic portals (where less security is required) and then interstellar portals (where more security is required).
In the example above, rather than have an airport that connects Atlanta to London. You could have an airport that connects Atlanta to New York and then have a portal in New York that connects to London. I'm going to presume that creating portals over short distances is easier then creating portals over long distances. This could be completely wrong. But if true, by only having one portal to another world, you have a cost savings in addition to better security (at the very least you have a cost savings in that you only need security for one complex that connects to interstellar worlds rather than having security for two complexes that connect to interstellar worlds).
Groups of Sarrukh in competition would not share a single portal to a point distant...if they were in competition against each other, they would (each group/city-state/kingdom) have their own access to another world.
The United States and Soviet Union were both in a race to space...they didn't share one launching point...
We can't assume any race was united in Faerun. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 13:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Groups of Sarrukh in competition would not share a single portal to a point distant...if they were in competition against each other, they would (each group/city-state/kingdom) have their own access to another world.
The United States and Soviet Union were both in a race to space...they didn't share one launching point...
We can't assume any race was united in Faerun.
Good point. The analogy with Georgia and New York both having routes to London threw me (as they're both in the same country. Unless you mean the other Georgia, in which case it seems like a rather long (and impossible) drive to get to London ;)). |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 14:41:01
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| Some green elves came to Faerun with help from Faerie, if you buy into that stupid 3e line of reasoning. They and the dark elves were certainly in Faerun much earlier than the gold and moon elves, and spent thousands of years fighting or more often hiding from/being enslaved by the dragons. Gold and moon elves came to Faerun entirely on their own. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 16:14:42
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And if you read that 1st story in Realms of the Elves (Traitors), you see that nearly all Eladrin (Gold/Silver) Elves were subjugated by the Dragons. This leads me to wonder if the (arch)fey knew what was going to happen (and sent the Sylvan Elves ahead to help defeat the dragons eventually), or if other groups of Eladrin had settled on Toril before the time we know of (when Tintageer fell).
Considering how quickly the normally non-fecund Elves reproduce, it seemed extremely odd to me just how quickly they spread and took over (according to Evermeet: Isle of Elves), especially in regards to the newer lore that says the sylvan elves were there all along. As much as I loved Elaine's novel (maybe my FR favorite), I didn't really care for the 'Adam & Eve' type of thing she did there (first there were a few, and then there are suddenly tribes everywhere... a bit jarring). Her explanation - if left to stand on its own - means that every Silver elf is related to every other silver elf. (just Eeeeeewww)
So I would prefer if the elves (in the short story Traitors) were a completely different group of Eladrin that had come over even earlier on, either with or before the sylvan Elves. That way, the Sylvan Elves that were sent by the Fey would have some reasoning behind it ("rescue our people from subjugation"). It would also resolve the 'kissing cousins' issue with Silver Elves.
Just my 2¢
EDIT: Talk about drifting off topic... 
Where orcs are concerned, I think they were from the plane of Faerie (Feywild). Whether you want to say they were fey originally or not doesn't matter - goblin myths tie-into fairy myths in old folklore, so there should be some sort of connection there.
Anyhow, orcs all came from 'elsewhere'. They are the planer equivalent of locusts - the enter a world and swarm. Another trait is their ability to procreate with just about anything (another reason why i think they are related to fey), which is why we see so many variations of Orcs, in coloration, size, intelligence, appearance, and even temperament. We are just lucky enough in FR - given its nature - that we have examples of all types.
Also, since evil-types love to use them as fodder, and we know they can interbreed like crazy, they are one of those races uber-baddies like to purposely crossbreed with other things to 'improve' upon them. So besides all the cross-world pollination (and 'natural selection'), we also have lots and lots (and LOTS) of small groups that could be VERY different then others.
In my homebrew material, I have spun it where the demon Lord (and sometimes god) Orcus crossbred Orcs with Boarmen (who live on Glorantha, amongst other worlds), to create a group more aesthetically pleasing to him. These are the classic 'pig-faced' Orcs (and a possible origins story for their name). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2013 16:27:22 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 03:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
... Boarmen (who live on Glorantha, amongst other worlds), ...
I'm not familiar with these Boarmen. Is there a site or specific GLORANTHA sourcebook that deals with them in depth? I'd like to learn more. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 18:16:11
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You know, I had some truly ancient (late 70's) Boarmen miniatures - probably amongst the best looking I had from that era. I had always assumed that they were from Runequest, because mini-companies had only just begun to make minis specifically for RPGs, and D&D and Runequest were amongst the first (and I know they weren't D&D).
Now that I went looking for them, not only can't I find ANY boarmen in RPGs (completely bizarre if you ask me), but I can't even find the minis! I saw some sites that talked about Bormen minis, but all the links are either dead or go somewhere else now (supposedly Reaper made some, but I can't find any pics at all).
Unlike Wereboars, they were very tribal-looking (with grass skirts and primitive-looking spears). Also just a bit bigger then the other minis (so they'd be 6'6"-7' tall). They were pretty awesome... gone forever now. 
Sorry I couldn't dig up any info - I had always assumed they were from the Runequest line - I had tons of RQ minis from then... most still in boxes... {sigh}
Anyhow, the theory still works - Orcus bred fodder-troops from orcs with some sort of large, bestial Boarman type creature. These creatures may even be some form of low-level demon from his realm.
EDIT: Oddly enough, I have come across (after MUCH digging) a couple of references to 'Boarmen' during Runequest/Glorantah discussions on websites, and yet i can find no 'official' info on them. Mostly just off-hand comments though. One person even described a miniature very similar to mine (from an old-school RQ boxset), but he said it was a 'Baboon man'. Now, I KNOW mine were Boarmen.... they had tusks! LOL |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2013 18:29:54 |
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PaulBestwick
Seeker
United Kingdom
83 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 18:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know, I had some truly ancient (late 70's) Boarmen miniatures - probably amongst the best looking I had from that era. I had always assumed that they were from Runequest, because mini-companies had only just begun to make minis specifically for RPGs, and D&D and Runequest were amongst the first (and I know they weren't D&D).
Now that I went looking for them, not only can't I find ANY boarmen in RPGs (completely bizarre if you ask me), but I can't even find the minis! I saw some sites that talked about Bormen minis, but all the links are either dead or go somewhere else now (supposedly Reaper made some, but I can't find any pics at all).
Unlike Wereboars, they were very tribal-looking (with grass skirts and primitive-looking spears). Also just a bit bigger then the other minis (so they'd be 6'6"-7' tall). They were pretty awesome... gone forever now.
Sorry I couldn't dig up any info - I had always assumed they were from the Runequest line - I had tons of RQ minis from then... most still in boxes... {sigh}
Anyhow, the theory still works - Orcus bred fodder-troops from orcs with some sort of large, bestial Boarman type creature. These creatures may even be some form of low-level demon from his realm.
Markey, are you refereing to Broo or Tuskriders ? The former were chaos spawn that would breed with anything male or female (birth was ala Alien).
Tusk Riders were supposedly a cross breed of Troll and Human from the second age, results of a magically augmented union by the Empire of the Wyrm Friends.
I cannot relate meta gods from the D&D multiverse with the Gloranthan Mythology, to me they are far too different to relate without running amok what is a very different Mythos |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 18:36:04
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No, not the Tuskriders, which I've seen in several games (although I imagine Orcs would hate Dwarfs for riding their 'distant ancestors'). 
It would be like Elves riding Gorillas for us.
Broo are cool - I loved them (and still use them, and Dragonewts, which for me will ALWAYS be better then half-dragon/Dragonborn/Draconians). Ducks........ not so much.
ANYHOWWWWWW... still looking. Now I am on a tear - how could the entire RPG industry have forgotten about the uber-cool, primitive, shamanistic boarman culture? Was this some sort of evil plot by a clandestine group of Cthulhu worshipers trying to cover their trail? Will we ever know the truth? Stay tuned....... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2013 18:36:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
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Mountain Orcs
