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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe

104 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2013 :  15:15:34  Show Profile Send Sunderstone a Private Message
THO,

I loved City of Splendors and think it is the best of the Forgotten Realms novels. I did enjoy some of the bit we saw of Piergeron, Madeiron, and Texter. Although they were brief it did raise a couple of questions for me.

When Piergeron is injured in the Docks Ward, in the aftermath Mirt mentions that his healing took longer because of longevity magics used. Has Piergeron extensively had his life extended in this fashion? Why does this alter the healing process? Also, when was his father Athar active in the North? The game lore mentions his most famous exploit was slaying a Red Dragon, is there anything else that can be shared of his explpoits? Was he ever a player in the rule of Waterdeep?

The brief bit of Texter in the book took place in Luskan. I got the feeling that he roams the North quite a bit in his role and patronage of Tyr as a Paladin. How does he balance this with his role as a Masked Lord? How much time demand in a typical month do the Masked Lords have placed on them in their role as stewards of Waterdeep?

In most of the game material I have Maderion is mentioned as an awe-inspiring sight and fearless but not very intelligent. I didn't get that impression though when Piergeron was attacked at the Purple silks. The scene was brief but I did notice when Mirt was trying to convince Piergeron not to enter the fray because the attackers wanted to capture him, Madeiron immediately picked up Mirt's words as ruse because the obvious evidence was they meant to kill him but quickly reaffirmed Mirt's words to keep Piegeron safe. It struck me as someone use to making quick decisions which would make sense in his role as champion and bodyguard. What is meant by him not being especially bright? What is the age difference between Madeiron and Piergeron? Is there relationship a deep friendship or father figure/son or less personal? How does Maderion interact with the other Lords of Waterdeep? Gaming material mentions Maderion as being very amicable. Does he have many friends outside of his professional responsibilities? Does his role as Champion and Bodygyard keep him firmly rooted around Piergeron and the Palace or is he ever sent independently on missions? His size would make him a novelty in any locale. Is he a novlely that is talked about in Waterdeep society or beyond Waterdeep?

I know there a lot of questions in here and would be happy with any you and Ed can answer. I don't think there is city or it's environs in any fiction I enjoy as much as Waterdeep. Paladins hold special appeal and I love the one in Waterdeep.

Thank you.

Edited by - Sunderstone on 25 May 2013 16:34:22
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2013 :  15:51:55  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi, all.
Sunderstone, I'm on the road right now and can't check my notes, and most of these queries Ed should answer rather than me, but here's what I can say:

"Has Piergeron extensively had his life extended in this fashion?" A: Yes.

"In most of the game material I have Maderion is mentioned as an awe-inspiring and fearless but not very intelligent. What is meant by him not being especially bright?"

A: Madeiron is slow in speech, and prefers to say little. And he's physically big. This has led to a general impression that he's dim-witted, but he's not. He just uses few words, and as little as possible; a classic "strong, silent type." He's very bright, and a shrewd judge of folk - - and effective in this, because people who dismiss him as "dumb as the nearest post" don't hide their true feelings and opinions as much around him as they would about someone else.

"Is their relationship a deep friendship or father figure/son or less personal?"
A: Deep friendship. Best friends, absolute trust.

More when I can get home or talk to Ed.
love,
THO
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2013 :  20:39:08  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message
Would Ed prefer to have total control of the published Realms? Does he feel that the Realms is a better place for having many people create the lore and stories within his creation or does he feel that he could have made a better job of it himself?
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe

160 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2013 :  12:14:16  Show Profile Send Cbad285 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi again, all. I bring Ed's reply to Dalor and to Cbad285, re. Evermead. Here's Ed:


There is no "official" recipe for Evermead, and I will bow to anything Lady Elaine Cunningham, the reigning expert on this, can provide.
However, here's the closest equivalent I have devised (a rhodomel):
Needed:
1.5 gal blackberry honey
1 pkg montrachet yeast
1/2 gal rose petals
8 oz rosewater
3 gal water (avoid chlorinated and fluorinated tap water)
1 gal cherry juice (can be from concentrate, but avoid sugar-augmented "cherry cocktail")
1 vanilla bean
2 cloves

Bring 2 gallons of water to the boil, then remove from heat and stir in honey, keeping stirring until it dissolves.
Pour remaining water into main fermenting vessel, stirring in cherry juice.
Add hot must to main fermenting vessel, and stir. Check temp, and stir in yeast when temp gets below 80 degrees (F).
Do the usual fermenting thing. :}
Shake/swirl to oxygenate, then rack onto mesh bag containing rose petal, cloves, and vanilla bean (slice bean open down length, first).
Makes 5.5 gal
As with all meads, tinker with this until you like the result.


So saith Ed. Who emphasizes that he hasn't made mead often, although he HAS had success. The sugar content tends to make him violently ill after imbibing, though (diabetic). However, Cbad's workplace, fropm its website, seems like an establishment he has to visit. Someday, somehow...

love,
THO



To the quoted reply. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to saying thank you for answering my question! Jerry our wine and mead leader and I are hard at work and loving what we are coming up with. For now I'm waiting until his roses come in so I can harvest the hips rather than petals, as my research tells me they're a better source of flavor. As to visiting Dragonmead - If you ever find yourself in Michigan expect a royal welcome at the mead! since the design of the pub was taken from the owner's long time love affair with D&D.

"Beware the Dream Fever!"
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
149 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2013 :  12:21:22  Show Profile  Visit Eli the Tanner's Homepage Send Eli the Tanner a Private Message
Hello Ed and THO,

I was wondering if Ed could tell us any more about the tribe of Fire giants that built the Flaming Tower near the Border Forest (the one the Knights once stormed) and what sort of agreement with the Zhents they have that means they are working alongside them later on (1374 DR)?

EDIT: Clarifying date

Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms

Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 27 May 2013 12:20:00
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Marco Volo
Learned Scribe

France
201 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2013 :  08:27:40  Show Profile Send Marco Volo a Private Message
Hi Ed and THO,

In Waterdeep, I was wandering : apparently some merchants have a direct access to Skullport via their shop's cellar. If so :

1/ How do they keep it safe and in what do such a way consist ?

2/ How do they reach the Port of Shadows ? (Skullport is deep below and a network of caverns must extend on a lot of miles, no)

Sincerely yours

Marco

Edited by - Marco Volo on 29 May 2013 08:28:02
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2013 :  03:31:53  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
Markustay, just wanted to let you know I got your PM (still away from decent Net access and so can't clean out my inbox yet, and so can't PM you back yet). Full agreement from me and Ed. All he can say as yet is: agreed. There's much not yet told re. her story, that will be told (hopefully in fiction appearing after The Sundering saga is done).
love,
THO
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2013 :  04:06:27  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message
I read through old material, and I find questions, and I come here to search for the answer because I assume that it's been asked before, and I find nothing. So, apologies if this has been answered before, but...

Who is the ogre mage who killed and replaced Gondal of Baldur's Gate? What was the year, and what were the circumstances? I'm intrigued by the idea of an ogre mage living disguised among humans, keeping the ruse going... was that the intent or did he (or she; there are females right?) vanish from the city after collecting whatever could be collected of Gondal's stash/library/materials?
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2013 :  10:08:15  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message
Hello again THO and Ed,

The other day while I was looking through a book of baby names I was surprised to see so many names with roots in other languages. It then occurred to me that some of the names of Realms NPCs might have their roots in words drawn from Realms languages other than Common.

Noting again that Ed’s language files are fragmentary, do either of you recall any NPC names from published sources or during your Realmsplay sessions (esp. in Cormyr) that were based on other Realms languages?

Thank you both very much. I like how “thinking Realms” creeps into mundane, non-gaming activities.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 30 May 2013 10:09:48
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2013 :  14:12:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi again, all.
Markustay, just wanted to let you know I got your PM (still away from decent Net access and so can't clean out my inbox yet, and so can't PM you back yet). Full agreement from me and Ed. All he can say as yet is: agreed. There's much not yet told re. her story, that will be told (hopefully in fiction appearing after The Sundering saga is done).
{Chesire-Cat Grin}

Thanks for the response.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2013 :  22:47:26  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message
Hey! No fair leaving us to guess what you're whisperin about. Nah, it just makes me think about hundreds of us all having discrete PM conversations with THO and only cryptic meta-messages appearing in this thread. And apparently I'm not the first one to have that thought.


Pressing on my mind today are the identities of the individuals pictured in the Cyclopedia of the Realms; were they just drawings, or was a particular NPC held in mind or assigned to them afterwards?

"Dwarf" on page 40 (for some reason, the caption reads "Ghellin" in my mind, but I do want the King-in-Exile to be more regal and less defeated.)
"Elf" on page 43 (this picture came to mind when I first read about Kymil Nimesin.)
"Gnome" on page 46 (not sure here... Carthax of the Buckleswashers?)
"Goblinoids" on page 48 (maybe not a great adventuring band because it looks like they'd be light on heals, but perhaps they're representatives of a tribe or two which have names and histories and struggles that someone was waiting for this opportunit to expound upon?)
"Half-Elf" on page 49 (I'd be happy to consider guesses here, but I wouldn't want to risk her wrath if I were mistaken.)
"Halflings" on page 50 (High Roll and Gormogord of Halfling Inc?)

Who is on the covers of the Cyclopedia and the DM's Sourcebook? And speaking of the DM's Sourcebook, is it Hawkstone & Lharaie on page 23, or Florin & Dove, or someone else?

So given these guesses winging about in my head, I'm curious about just how far off I am. They're great drawings even without identities, but it's even better if I can open the first Realms books, point triumphantly, and say "you're talking to this guy!" (Or, in the half-elf's case, feel like a dirty and unworthy human, gulp, tap the page, and try not to sweat.)

Hope all is going well on your projects!
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2013 :  23:52:58  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Purrrrrr . . . that's why I answer PMs properly - privately, that is - only when wearing nothing but a smile, and licking chocolates.
It gets so WARM in here, sometimes.
LOVE,
THO
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Sightless
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2013 :  00:28:45  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Purrrrrr . . . that's why I answer PMs properly - privately, that is - only when wearing nothing but a smile, and licking chocolates.
It gets so WARM in here, sometimes.
LOVE,
THO



It's post like these that make me glad I wear headphones most of the time. Trying to explain this to my room mate would be a bit tricky.

*grin*

Don't let me alter your posting habbits though, I'll cross that hurtle when I come to it.

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2013 :  00:32:57  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message
Hm, it just got warmer here, when I re-opened this thread. What a coinkydink.
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Joebing
Learned Scribe

USA
202 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2013 :  01:17:55  Show Profile Send Joebing a Private Message
Hey THO and Ed, do you consider the NPC's from the early 90s trading cards by TSR to be canon? They are fairly fleshed out (sex, race, class, level), with a small background.

Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.

http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames

First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2013 :  14:59:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
@xaeyruudh - I almost NEVER contact THO privately - I am sure she will vouch for that - for the very reasons you suggest. I feel all Realmslore should be shared. The very few times I have it was a private matter, or something covered by an implied NDA (there are times when I Privately discuss stuff with other official designers, and we all go to Ed for 'final says' on stuff). Believe you me, I have to really bite my lip sometimes, but you don't gain people's trust when you blab everything you are privy to... although hints are fun (and generate some buzz). And I am also not 'in the loop' in the slightest - I am occasionally (rarely) approached when something comes within a specific area of my expertise (as I am sure many others here are). These things eventually 'see the light of day', so the secrets - if there are any - are temporary.

This particular case was none of that. It was my own... infamy.. that may have gotten in the way of something. In other words, if I ask about something, and suddenly it appears somewhere, it will look like I am being catered to, which certain folks will take exception to. I don't want to completely nuke a cool piece of lore just because of the stigma that it became 'attached to me' somehow. I don't know anything the rest of you don't, I was just worried about a favorite character of mine, and felt it had a better chance of resurfacing if I didn't make my inquires public (simply because 'haters hate').

Like every single other person here - fans, designers, and authors alike - I want The Forgotten Realms to succeed again. No... strike that... I want it to become a household name and take a place in the mass-market spotlight like it has never done so before. That should be everyone's fondest hope, and something I think all of us here - in whatever small way - are constantly working towards.

It takes a village.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 May 2013 15:00:20
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2013 :  15:22:00  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message
No worries as far as I'm concerned. And I agree as usual.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2013 :  16:45:09  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
Markustay, that was BEAUTIFULLY put. Thank you.
What you said is I'm striving for, too (in my tiny way), exactly. Bravo!
(And I can confirm to all what Markustay says about contacting me and Ed privately.)
My own current problem is being away from a computer where I can save PMs before I remove them, so my inbox is more than full, meaning new messages can come in and I can read them, but I can't reply by sending PMs.
I'll clear that up soon, I hope.
In the meantime, I have another cryptic reply, this time for gomez: I like. Please go right ahead! Looks beautiful, and made me feel honoured.
love to all!
THO
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11671 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2013 :  19:45:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Purrrrrr . . . that's why I answer PMs properly - privately, that is - only when wearing nothing but a smile, and licking chocolates.
It gets so WARM in here, sometimes.
LOVE,
THO




Hmmm, you know, that brings up a question.... does the realms have chocolate in canon anywhere?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11671 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2013 :  20:12:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message
ok, so that made me just go eat a piece of chocolate cake.... and now I'm looking at the laffy taffy. Does the realm have anything like Taffy?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1261 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2013 :  20:27:54  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message
I'm sure I read about chocolate being a delicacy in Amn brought in from Maztica. Possibly in Elminster's Forgotten Realms? Sorry not home now to quote directly but I will be later.
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2013 :  20:57:23  Show Profile Send Entromancer a Private Message
Are there any fantasy tales that are, in Ed's opinion, underappreciated or deserve more exposure? If so, which series/standalones?

"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul

"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul
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lordsknight185
Seeker

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2013 :  22:00:58  Show Profile Send lordsknight185 a Private Message
*Poke* Here again dear Ed, and Herald THO.

A very random question(A loaded question perhaps?), but one that has perked my curiosity for many many a years.

I love dwarves. Dwarves deep was the very first Realms book I bought (I bought it used over the net, but I was 16 and I absorbed every word of it) Now I have always been fascinated that you listed so many dwarf clans (Both Shield and Gold) and that they each have their own special symbol used when carving Runestones.

My main question is, Is there any facts or tidbits about what might make these clans different, I am especially curious about more intimate details (Any table scrap would make be happy) about the Blackhammer clan (Which all characters I make are typically from it, because I was young and I thought it sounded badass yet I know 0 about what you envision of them) and perhaps the current status in post-spellplague realms if you have ever given this ANY thought.

Lastly (So I have a second question)I recently reread Crown of Fire, which introduced Mirt the Moneylender and upon meeting Delg he did "A quick complex sign with one hand" to show that he was a friend of the dwarves, could you somehow describe this trustworthy hand gesture?

As always, thank you for quenching my thirst for realmsy knowledge, the best you can. :)
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2013 :  17:19:44  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
lordsknight185, I can answer your last question, by quoting directly from long-ago notes Ed gave me:

The gesture is made by holding up one hand (which one doesn't matter/has no hidden meaning, because it is so often made by someone whose other hand is busy holding or carrying something, or opening a door) vertically, and moving fingers and thumb as if to grasp the upright cylindrical handle of something, then immediately shifting the fingers and thumb to form a fist, knuckles horizontal.
This denotes holding the handle of . . . a hammer, meaning the working tool (and weapon) most favored by dwarves (yes, despite axes and pickhammers). So the hammer signifies the dwarves, and the making of the gesture signifies friendship and/or common cause with the dwarves.

So saith Ed. There, swift potted Realmslore. Your queries have, of course, gone off to Ed. I doubt he'll share all his dwarf clan notes, being as some are almost certainly encumbered by NDAs, but let's see what he can reveal to us all of Clan Blackhammer.
love,
THO
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2013 :  23:28:20  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message
Soooo... this one is kinda all over the place.

An adult male human is a man, and a female is a woman (this sounds like kindergarten).

Surely, other races have other names for persons of particular genders. What do elves call a male elf? What's a female dwarf called, among her own people?

And to poke a little deeper, this is dependent on age or relative place in life, right? Adolescents have different names than adults: boy/girl, in english. Are there additional levels for some Realms races too? For example babies could have a set of identifiers, children below the age of 13, minors, young people just past the age of majority, married adults (distinct from the equivalents for husband and wife), and maybe even different words for the elderly.

Do the elves have distinct words for each subrace? Obviously there would be different words in different languages/dialects, but I mean is there a word for "adolescent male sun elf" and a different word for "adolescent male moon elf?" Or are the words specialized to particular cultures (all adult female elves of Eaerlann, for instance, described with the same word regardless of subrace)? On a tangent to this, what about the star elves, avariels, lythari, drow, and perhaps aquatic elves, whose cultures are (or have been) separated from the more-readily-associating gold/silver/wild/wood elves... do these more secluded races have more variance in their terminology, or are their languages (except drow) basically unmodified from ancient times when perhaps they all lived together and spoke a common tongue? My ancient elvish lore is rusty, but the question also applies to all the subraces of dwarves and halflings, and gnomes too because I don't forget them.

Does caste introduce a new level of terminology? Certainly some humans and some elves have the idea that some families are simply better than others. Does this elitism darken dwarves, gnomes, and halflings too, and have any of them successfully added new terms for themselves and their children to reinforce perceived differences in nature or value?

Forges warm!
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LetumLux
Acolyte

17 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2013 :  07:11:32  Show Profile Send LetumLux a Private Message
I have another language/vocabulary question!

Are there any terms for the equivalent of the 'dojo' or 'monastery' or a similar a place of training and enlightenment, in any of the Realmsian languages? If so, what are they and what language?

Thanks in advance!
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2013 :  15:58:17  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all. LetumLux, the terms temple, shrine, abbey, monastery, hermitage, and temple-farm are all used in the Realms. So are scriptorium (where holy books are copied), refectory, and various other real-world terms.
Ed has, however, devised some terms in various of the racial languages. Let me quote from some of his unpublished notes:

To the elves (and half-elves), "estarra" means "small holy place," meaning not a divine site where a deity is known to have done something (that's a "haelarra") or a formal temple or worship site, but rather a personal place where an individual, or a family, or an individual plus those s/he are mentoring or have as friends, and have guided there, go to pray or meditate or just think - - and hope to receive divine guidance. It can simply be a spot under a tree in a forest, with absolutely nothing to hint to anyone else what it is/has been used for.
(It's an insult among elves to say that someone's "estarra reeks of uld" (meaning, "uld" being excrement, that the someone only sits and 'thinks' when relieving themselves, or that their thoughts can never leave basic earthly matters.)

So saith Ed. I know he has similar for halflings (from doing THE FIVE SHIRES) and for dwarves (from doing DWARVES DEEP), but I don't have his notes "to hand." I'll have to see what he provides, when I send your post to him (which I have just done).
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2013 :  16:02:05  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
And hi again, all. Just popping in to tell xaeyruudh:
Yes, those are Hawkstone and Lharaie on page 23. We used to tease the player of Florin about that illustration - - and HE always used to insist it was Finder Wyvernspur with "a friend."
Full identifications forthcoming from Ed, I hope.
love,
THO
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2013 :  16:47:57  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
(...)
Who is on the covers of the Cyclopedia and the DM's Sourcebook?
(...)

Well xaeyruudh, about the guy in the cover of the DM's sourcebook, the same picture is in the cover of the Old Grey Box, discussed inthis thread. For what we discovered, his name is Thunderstorm, and more information was published in a trading card. Let's wait and see if Ed's lore brings new light over this issue.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2013 :  18:10:15  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message
Good stuff! "Your estarra reeks of uld" is awesome. And I would not have picked Finder "out of the blue" to match to that picture.

Barastir: I remembered seeing that thread, after I posted. Thanks for the link! I used to have those cards... at least two of the sets... no idea at all where they are now.
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