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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 22:49:56
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I know that this is neither FR nor theological, as such, but since it's a moral question, I decided to post it here, since it doesn't really fit anywhere else.... And besides, in the spirit of the holidays ('tis the season for miracles, after all, LOL!) I thought this would be a fun topic for this forum! Ahem, and here it is....
Well, I was walking home from work today (it's about two miles, so I get plenty of time to think) and an odd holiday-themed thought occured to me. Okay, so I had "Frosty the Snowman" stuck in my head all day. (Several of the people I work with were singing X-Mas carols all day long, and thus I ended up singing a few myself) and I suddenly realized on the way home while still hearing it running through my brain, that there is an interesting moral question in it.
We all know the song "Frosty the Snowman", and most of us have probably seen the holiday animated movie. We know the story of how a magician's hat happened to be blown to where the kids were building the snowman, and they decided to put it on his head, and it brought him to life. And then Frosty proceeded to discover that unless he got himself to the North Pole post-haste, he would eventually melt.
So here's the question. Suppose that a person owns an item that happens to be magical (implausible, I know, but just run with it) and discards that item, either because it doesn't work properly, or they don't realize it is. The item gets found and brings an inanimate opbject to life (Frosty, in this case). Then the person who had it discovers the occurance, and decided they want the item back. Would they be morally justified to take it back, even though it would now deprive the newly- sentient being of life? Okay, there's the question- discuss!
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 23:09:17
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no, if its discarded, the previous owner lost all legal claim to it. in other words he trashed it, the new owner is the one who picked it up first.
ownership being 9/10 of the law and all. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 23:19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
no, if its discarded, the previous owner lost all legal claim to it. in other words he trashed it, the new owner is the one who picked it up first.
ownership being 9/10 of the law and all.
It was lost property, not discarded. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 23:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Funny, I seem to remember he threw it off the train in disgust at not being able to get it to work properly- and the rabbit was laughing at him....
And I wasn't talking about legal claims, but MORAL implications of taking it back. Basically, if he took it back, wouldn't he be "killing" a sentient being? (Frosty)
Well I might need to watch it again, *shudders* , however I recall wind being a factor. If indeed discarded, there is no moral claim to have it back only because discovering it did something BAMF.
Of course if he threw it away, then wanted it back it would be killing a creature and immoral. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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vorpalanvil
Seeker
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 23:48:51
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| Killing a sentient being without just cause is called murder. That is why it's okay to eat animals. |
"I'm a busy man! I got places to go, monsters to kill!" attributed to 1st level bard |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 00:17:31
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quote:
Originally posted by vorpalanvil
Killing a sentient being without just cause is called murder. That is why it's okay to eat animals.
Hmm, found this quote:
sen·tient
/#712;senCH(#275;)#601;nt/
Adjective
Able to perceive or feel things: "sentient life forms".
Synonyms
sensitive - sensible - susceptible - tender - feeling
Clearly you define the word differently, as I know animals do perceive and do feel things. in fact many understand human words, even if just a command.
There is at least theory out there that even plants are sentient to a slight degree. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 00:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There is at least theory out there that even plants are sentient to a slight degree.
Which brings to mind the hypocrisy of vegetarians and vegans who choose such diets on moral grounds. If killing animals is so wrong, then what if plants can some day be shown to likewise sense or detect stimuli and subsequently be conscious or perceptive of it? Isn't eating such a creature wrong, too?
I don't see any viable way to get around the moral conundrum of creatures eating other creatures for sustenance and nutrition in this universe. It's the way this universe was created and/or evolved. Deal with it.
But sometimes I do wish that we had all been born with something like chlorophyll in our skin membranes, so that we could just take inanimate minerals from the soil and combine them with sunlight for refreshing nourishment. No killing!
But nooo!!! We had to be brought into an existence where it's kill or be killed. That's heavy.
Of course, some day, we might find that even "inanimate" rocks have some level of consciousness, too, and then we'd be right back in the same ethical pickle! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 01:52:56
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quote:
There is at least theory out there that even plants are sentient to a slight degree.
Guess that proves that there are definitely some asinine theories out there. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 03:23:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
There is at least theory out there that even plants are sentient to a slight degree.
Guess that proves that there are definitely some asinine theories out there.
Not at all. Plants have the ability to sense their surroundings, which is part of sentience.
But the way that they do this, and the way that they react, is apparently mostly through chemicals, as opposed to electricity and nerves, as with animals. This translates into a much longer sensation and reaction time.
One way of describing it is <hormonal sentience>. See also <plant perception>.
With animals and humans, we tend to view and describe slower-to-think-and-react individuals as dim, dumb, or "retarded".
Perhaps our views of plants' even slower reaction is an extreme extension of that?
Just because plants' sensation and reaction mechanisms are very different from animals' does not necessarily preclude a legitimate, worthy-of-consideration-and-estimation form of sentience. Different does not equal less-than, or beneath. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 25 Dec 2012 03:32:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 05:01:32
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So if you owned a 20 ct diamond, and somehow it was keeping someone alive, then you should be morally obligated to just let them have it? I'm not talking about the issue of ownership here (I give my opinion of that below) - I'm just talking about need. If someone needs something more then you do, perhaps even to live, the moral thing might be to just let them have it, but what price limit do we set on that?
Suppose I found out I am dying of some incurable disease, but my heart is perfectly fine (and disease-free). Some kid might be a perfect match for me as donor, but they need the heart NOW. If it were legal to do so, would I be morally obligated to give up the rest of my short life so that they may live their's? What if I have no disease - I'm still 49. The kid will probably get far more mileage out of that heart then I will.
At what point does the value you place on something outweigh the value it has to someone else? (this is just more along the lines of OP's philosophical discussion, not trying to do anything else here).
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
no, if its discarded, the previous owner lost all legal claim to it. in other words he trashed it, the new owner is the one who picked it up first.
ownership being 9/10 of the law and all.
AGREED. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Dec 2012 05:02:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 06:22:51
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I'm really iffy on this topic that doesn't even tangentially relate to the Realms...
I also don't think we should denigrate theories simply because we don't believe in them. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 06:46:01
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Well, to be honest, I wasn't sure where else to put it, but since there was magic involved, and an inanimate object being animated, then it does SORT OF fit loosely into the realms (pardon the pun) of an FR discussion. YMMV, of course, LOL! BEsides, Frosty could be considered a type of golem, couldn't he? We've seen glass, bone, flesh, stone, and metal golems, so why not a snow golem? Okay, so I'm kind of stretching it here, but I figuret hat ought to satisfy Wooly's question well enough. It's a question that would apply to any similar situation in FR or just D&D in general.
In any case, I was using the idea of sentience as an intelligent, self-aware being capable of communicating, self-expression, and independant reasoning and morality. ie- if an alien visits Earth, does it have the same rights as any human being? I see Frosty's situation as similar- a living being who is not human, but still thinks, feels, and has his own ideals and ethics, and is self-aware and can communicate with others. One might argue that whales and primates have the same abilities, but that's another issue. I was mainly interested in whether it would be ethical or morally right to remove the hat that allows him to live and be independant and self-aware. Plus, it's an interesting question for ANY world that has magic as a means of bringing objects to life- such as golems! (At what point does a golem become "alive"?) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 14:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm really iffy on this topic that doesn't even tangentially relate to the Realms...
I also don't think we should denigrate theories simply because we don't believe in them.
Well this might be moved to well met shelve.
Though to tie to the Realms, there is connection to earth and as such scribes might discuss myths of Earth as a moral question. Yes I know is reaching a little, however can be a link to the Realms and the magic of Frosty. Maybe the hat came from the Realms. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 16:01:45
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Kind of an obscure way to tie this to the Realms:
When a few of us were working on the Utter East over on the WotC boards*, we had decided that the first 5 Bloodforges were originally called Lifeforges, and were "gifts of the (Vedic) Gods". After a cataclysm further east (the fall of Tempat Larang) the Mar folk had to migrate across the Yehimals, which is pretty lethal. In the valley of Langdarma the Vedic pantheon created a 'paradise-on-Earth', and gifted their faithful with the lifeforges, to help them on their journey. These major artifacts did several things, including providing sustenance, eternal youth, and bringing the dead back to life (and in retrospect, I realize now that I may have had the Ark of the Covenant in mind while writing that).
Once the Mar reached the Utter East the five artifacts were dispersed amongst the five tribes, and eventually three of them wound-up under the capitals of the Five Kingdoms. Later on they were used to stave-off the Imaskari (who studied them form afar and used that knowledge to create the 'lesser Bloodforges' - the ones from the video game, which had far less power) by creating magical golem servants (which they used as fairly basic warriors). All of the above is homebrew, based very loosely on psuedo-canon and even more loosely on real canon (what few scraps we had).
There was more to it and them, but what I am getting at is that these things were designed with pure intentions, and later their nature was corrupted to fight wars and what-not. In each case the controlling group thought that their need was greater then everyone else's (but it was usually just greed). There are certain implications with a magical device that 'creates life' that have be considered, beyond whether the creature created has a right to its life. If we had a device in our RW that could simply create 'people', would it be okay to do so? What if you cloned yourself a dozen times... who owns your stuff? How would we feed the sudden population explosion? Sure, Frosty is just one guy, but what happens when we are suddenly faced with an army of 'snowmen'?
* I reiterate, most of that was hombrew, based loosely on the Blood & Magic VG and the Double Diamond series, which are both considered non-canon (despite carrying the FR logo). Canonically the Utter East has very little detail. This was a case of putting together a 1000 piece puzzle with only 10 pieces or so.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Dec 2012 16:06:06 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 16:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Suppose I found out I am dying of some incurable disease, but my heart is perfectly fine (and disease-free). Some kid might be a perfect match for me as donor, but they need the heart NOW. If it were legal to do so, would I be morally obligated to give up the rest of my short life so that they may live their's? What if I have no disease - I'm still 49. The kid will probably get far more mileage out of that heart then I will.
At what point does the value you place on something outweigh the value it has to someone else?
I am reminded of sci-fi and horror shows which have depicted evil children who felt that the universe was theirs, and that grown-ups had forefeited all their rights because they had wasted their lives and grown old. The children could (theoretically) enjoy resources longer, and get more out of them, so why waste those resources on old people who would just die sooner?
Weren't the Jem'Hadar warrior race from Star Trek bred to fight hard, die hard, live fast? I vaguely recall them having a hatred of their older members, and considering it more of an honor to be a young, reckless, hard-charging hellion than an experienced, wiser survivor.
Meanwhile, back in the RW, with most people thinking that a person has to achieve a certain age or level of maturity to warrant full legal/moral rights, it doesn't surprise me that a lot of folks think that non-humans would fail to qualify.
So for such critics, all that would matter would be the value of the magic item to humans, and not to a non-human.
As far as throwing such a magic item away and then wanting it back, I say, "No way." Forfeiture of possession/ownership of the item also entails forfeiture of the right of control of the item. When Frosty was given said item, he had possession/ownership, and therefore the right of control. It was his, at that point--not the original magician's. (This sounds a little like Cinderella, with her wicked step-sisters' cast-off clothing and jewelry--except for the whole life-and-death angle.)
To try to relate this to the Realms, recall how the shadow dragon Shimmergloom and his minions drove out the dwarves of Clan Battlehammer from Mithral Hall, and the dwarves fought back to try to regain control, but eventually the dwarves gave up and moved on to Icewind Dale (Streams of Silver). At some point in all of this turmoil, did the dwarves forfeit their rights to the Hall? I mean, they had the chance to fight until every last member of the Clan was dead, continuously asserting their rights, but they didn't do that. Instead, they gave up--they forfeited.
Is that in any way like the magician throwing away his magic hat? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 16:12:20
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Is the sentience in the snow or is the sentience in the magic hat? Maybe if you put the hat on a pile of leaves it will make them sentient, too. You'd have to ask the owner of the hat...unless he doesn't know.
But I would think it is immoral to kill a sentient being so I would not let the owner of the hat kill the sentient snow man. But maybe that is Star Trek Voyager's hologram rights influencing my thinking... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 16:52:07
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Nope...lets not kill Frosty the Snowman...but that Dragon with the treasure needs to be cut into tiny draco-chunks with the vorpal sword...or those orcs need to be eradicated so that they don't raid us any longer (never mind their now starving children).
Ethics is a sweet idea...but has little practical application in a game designed on violence, intrigue and monsters.
Take your hat and go home... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 01:15:39
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You'll have to excuse me...I'm a bit of a pot-stirrer...sometimes I say contrary things simply to see what thought can be provoked from others.
My real issue with this is simple: if a self-aware computer came to be (much like our Frosty fellow); would it be wrong to turn it off?
Simple answer is no...it is a computer.
To me, the moment we equate machines or automotons of any sort really with life; we devalue our own state of being.
To me, were I to live in the Forgotten Realms and encounter the Frosty the Snowman issue...I wouldn't be heartbroken to see him lose his hat. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 01:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Weren't the Jem'Hadar warrior race from Star Trek bred to fight hard, die hard, live fast? I vaguely recall them having a hatred of their older members, and considering it more of an honor to be a young, reckless, hard-charging hellion than an experienced, wiser survivor.
Some of the Jem'Hadar -- particularly those among the "Gamma Quadrant" stock -- did revere their more experienced kin, to a degree, by awarding each of them with the title of "Honoured Elder." Though that was rare in and of itself, since so few Jem'Hadar warriors survived beyond the "age" of 20.
The "Alphas," though [those Jem'Hadar bred in the Alpha Quadrant], tended to look at these Honoured Elders as failures. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 02:18:52
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| I don't think it devalues our own state of being at all. It's one of those questions that makes us think about what really makes us "human", IMO. When the definition of humanity is not so clear and distinct, then we have to ask ourselves at what point a being is treated as "human"- in the sense of having basic rights like those of a human being. I, Robot, Short Circuit, and otehr movies and books have touched on this question numerous times. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 02:53:00
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I think in the case of the computer if it achieves human level sentience then it is no longer "property" and is deserving of some rights if not all human rights. To me, the tricky part is does the company who created it have to keep paying the electric bill or in any way provide support to it once it is "alive"? Does it have to find a way to support itself like every other living being or is the company (or government, individual, whatever) responsible for it like a child since whoever created it is in essence it's parent?
Edit to add: And likewise is the entity who created it somehow entilted to any kind of compensation for the materials that now make up the "living" computer as they in fact were property? I don't mention the expense or time spent creating it as creating it was the likely goal to begin with.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 26 Dec 2012 02:55:53 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 03:14:45
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I'm no "better" than a lion...but if a lion is a threat to me, then it has to die.
If a robot/computer became "self aware" I would see that as a threat of epic proportions...and it would have to go!
You see, I'm an admitted animal with the primary goal of continuing my species...anything a threat to that needs to be gone. Ideology contrary to that, I guess just isn't in me. It is fine to debate "what if" situations...and even take "moral high ground" in such...though morals aren't real, they are cultural inventions.
To me, the kindness one shows to another is because we have an instinct to continue our species...but if that same individual who showed kindness to another was in turn threatened by that one...then the individual motivation to survive might dictate a harsh course of action.
Animal that I am, I have to accept that.
In the Forgotten Realms, there are really few races that have the "we have to survive...so everyone else is an enemy" mentality except perhaps orcs and other goblinoids. In general of course, and not an "absolute" at all.
There is an intro to a movie I recently watched called The Experiment I think...with Forest Whitaker (awesome actor!) and Adrien Brody. Watch the intro to that movie...then you will better understand my viewpoint on the whole thing I've been blabbering about. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 04:07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm no "better" than a lion...but if a lion is a threat to me, then it has to die.
If a robot/computer became "self aware" I would see that as a threat of epic proportions...and it would have to go!
You see, I'm an admitted animal with the primary goal of continuing my species...anything a threat to that needs to be gone. Ideology contrary to that, I guess just isn't in me. It is fine to debate "what if" situations...and even take "moral high ground" in such...though morals aren't real, they are cultural inventions.
To me, the kindness one shows to another is because we have an instinct to continue our species...but if that same individual who showed kindness to another was in turn threatened by that one...then the individual motivation to survive might dictate a harsh course of action.
Animal that I am, I have to accept that.
In the Forgotten Realms, there are really few races that have the "we have to survive...so everyone else is an enemy" mentality except perhaps orcs and other goblinoids. In general of course, and not an "absolute" at all.
There is an intro to a movie I recently watched called The Experiment I think...with Forest Whitaker (awesome actor!) and Adrien Brody. Watch the intro to that movie...then you will better understand my viewpoint on the whole thing I've been blabbering about.
If the computer becomes a threat (or Frosty, for argument's sake), I am in total agreement. Wipe it out. But until it becomes one, or it appears it is on the verge of becoming one, I don't see the point in destroying it. A lone, isolated computer sitting in a room somewhere is a threat to no one and nothing. It's only a threat when a human does something remarkably stupid like connect it to the internet or give it the launch codes. Until that point I don't think we can rightfully say that just because it might be a threat we should destroy it. I don't think the logic of "it might be a threat later so we should kill it now" is one that should be endorsed when dealing with other intelligent things because that is the start of a potentially very dark road that won't end with destroying computers.
I also wouldn't be too quick to call it a what-if situation. It may be decades from becoming reality but there are fairly talented people being backed by other people with pockets that have virtually limitless depth attempting to bring about this what-if.
This would be like someone in the Realms somehow getting their hands on a creation forge (I believe that's what they are called) from Eberron and starting to produce Warforged with the intent to just let them out into the world. No outright hostile intent and no intention to train them to be soldiers, just some bizarre desire to add diversity to the Realms. Are the assorted nations justified in systematically wiping out the Warforged without them having made any hostile move? Or, to use something that has happened, we have the Dragonborn suddenly dropped into the Realms. I don't think the other nations decided to kill them on sight. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 05:00:14
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Don't kill something before it becomes a threat? Humans do it all the time...every day in fact...all over the world. Foxes, wolves and others are exterminated before they can cause a problem...same goes for other "hostile" creatures in the Forgotten Realms.
If Frosty were able to replicate himself...and eventually plunge the world into an icy hell so that he and all his progeny were "safe to live"...
Thinking of fantasy worlds filled with different sentient species is great...but humans can barely stand the variety within their own species...a lifetime of seeing racism and genocide at work in my world doesn't make me much of a "truster" of humanity's willingness to give another sentient race a chance.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 17:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If Frosty were able to replicate himself...and eventually plunge the world into an icy hell so that he and all his progeny were "safe to live"...
Sounds like Mr. Freeze from the Batman comics.
You just know that Frosty would be the most militant, egregious, anti-Global-Warming eco-Nazi ever!
"And what is your carbon footprint? Hmm? Ah hah. And now you must die!" |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 01:09:18
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| Okay, that's taking it a bit far, isn't it? I can see him maybe being pro-green, but come on! This was a guy whose first words were "happy birthday"! He was just out playing and having fun with some kids, for heaven's sake! And now he's a threat to humanity because he might decide to make the whole world COLD??!! Funny, that doesn't sound like the fun-loving jolly soul from the song. I'd honestly have pegged him as a very child-like being. And what was his main goal? Oh yeah- getting to the North Pole. Y'know, so he wouldn't MELT.... And he promised he'd return to the kids, too (And if anyone recalls Frosty 2, he did indeed do just that!) YEah- osunds like a REAL threat! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 01:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If Frosty were able to replicate himself...and eventually plunge the world into an icy hell so that he and all his progeny were "safe to live"...
Sounds like Mr. Freeze from the Batman comics.
More like the old pre-New 52 Freeze, I think. The New 52 Mr. Freeze operates somewhat differently, now... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 03:34:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Okay, that's taking it a bit far, isn't it? I can see him maybe being pro-green, but come on! This was a guy whose first words were "happy birthday"! He was just out playing and having fun with some kids, for heaven's sake! And now he's a threat to humanity because he might decide to make the whole world COLD??!! Funny, that doesn't sound like the fun-loving jolly soul from the song. I'd honestly have pegged him as a very child-like being. And what was his main goal? Oh yeah- getting to the North Pole. Y'know, so he wouldn't MELT.... And he promised he'd return to the kids, too (And if anyone recalls Frosty 2, he did indeed do just that!) YEah- osunds like a REAL threat!
Everyone who is, was once a child...but children become adults.
Before I go on...Frosty is a sweet guy...I'm not saying all new life is going to be violent or anything.
Having said that: Being a unique life, we have an instance in fact that in our culture shows what humanity might even be like in our future when we discover unique life = Data from Star Trek.
There were HUGE measures in place to prevent Data from replicating himself...and when he did in fact try, it was monitored oh so closely from fear. And THAT is the mythical future of Star Trek...which would be nice, but I don't see it happening.
The human animal can idealize great things...but it is our application of our ideas that we invariably fail at! Like ALL organisms (plants included) we are hard-wired to flourish and multiply at the expense of those in our way. Even once we force out all organisms that are unlike us, we then turn on each other to eliminate even those similar to, but not exactly like, us.
This is contrary to what humans accept about their animal nature (as many believe they are not animals obviously); but it applies to every other single form of life we know of on earth...
So yeah, perhaps sentience is hard-wired with "I have to survive, what threatens my survival must be pushed aside/perish"...and if that is the case, then even Frosty the Snowman could perhaps eventually turn into Frosty the Abominable Snowman.
OR
I could be full of bologna and disregard everything I just said.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 27 Dec 2012 03:34:57 |
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Frosty Moral Question....
