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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2004 : 16:51:36
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Yes i found the book quite fun but i must ask is the Simbul Crazy ? she does sems. so and did Nergal die or what and was the leader of hel infestet with caos ? and the end Demons,tayans,shar cultist and Myaragil or somthing or another and the stil did not manage to kill them.
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Edited by - Alaundo on 20 Jan 2004 21:21:15
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Cherrn
Learned Scribe
Denmark
323 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2004 : 19:21:03
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To answer your first question, yes the Simbul has always been a bit crazy  |
A wise man from Calimport once told me: "If a merchant puts sand in the flask of oil he's trying to sell you, then he isn't trying to sell you sand..." |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 13:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Cherrn
To answer your first question, yes the Simbul has always been a bit crazy
Simbul = The Wild Child of the Seven Sisters. And, I think that's saying something. |
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 06:38:10
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This book is a really strange one, but I must say, for me, the Simbul was the most sane during this book.
She is the first to deduce that he is in trouble in hell, and without even blinking, she gathers her power, flies into hell and destroys so much stuff, that if she were a player, i bet she would have levelled up 
She does better than anyone in the rescue, 'including' Mystra herself, even going as far as to destroy a certain devil about 3 times. It's classic and it was so pleasing to read, to se her going on the noble quest for her love.
I was always unsure about who is stronger, her or Elminster and I think in certain ways he is still more powerful, being subtle, slower to anger and more ananlytical. For instance how he escapes the Devil that is holding him. But for raw power, I think she would destroy him. When you read her actions, its terrifying to see her power.
One of the most intriguing parts of the novel though, is the bit with the mad mage from undermountain, I forget his name. Hallastar or something. His inclusion is awesome. As I have only ever read about him once, in the noble series I think 'Escape from Undermountain' or something.
Awesome book, and I would recommend it to everyone. I mean, you will never see such a collection of celebrities again. Everyone who is a celebrity with the exception of the Icewind Daleans and Volo are there. |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 05:12:51
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| Yeah, about that halaster part in the book; he was made sane again by mystra right? my memory on this matter eludes me, as it is a while since i read it. but would`nt that be a good reading? halaster turned sane? now THAT could be quite terrifying! |
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Enagonios
Acolyte
Philippines
9 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 05:34:38
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| he was insane because he was tainted by shar. i think all mystra did was remove the taint and he snapped out of insanity. of course he still got the crap kicked out of him (practically literally). for a mage with such a reputation, he certainly didn't live up to it here. especially considering that mystra boosted his powers a bit just for the rescue mission. it was entertaining, but i don't think i particularly liked this book, it seemed like half the novel was borrowed from everywhere else. it could have been better methinks. |
"I can't die young. I have a feeling the people of earth are gonna need me." -Marco from Road Trip |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 21:31:31
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I really liked the book as well, since it's the closest we've come in a long while to the spirit of Spellfire and Shadows of the Avatar, which are my favorite FR books. Meaning we get to see adventurers doing what they do best, and El (and others) blipping about and blasting things. I really found it fun.
As to the sanity of the Simbul, when EG has mentioned several times that none of the Chosen are sane, at least by our definition. And I agree that she's the wild one of the bunch, but I think she's calming down (probably El's influence). As to who's stronger? Well, she once said flat out that he would destroy her if they attacked each other, but that was way back in Spellfire, so it might have changed.
Also, with Halaster. There are a few conflicting ideas on what drove him insane. It's been said his working with demons did it, he says an overload of magical power, and it might be Shar. But also remember, in the adventure Stardock he gets yanked out of Undermountain and regains sanity. It isn't until he returns to the dungeon and resumes control of all its conflicting portals that he loses it again. So you've got a large number of possible causes. In my opinion, that just means it's up for the DM to decide. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 22:07:23
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| I think its because of his ties to the Undermountain. Remove him from it, and he's perfectly fine...... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 02:01:26
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| Personally we Blame Waterdeep, and the lords of that fair city, for most of the problems that occur below it. Should Waterdeep not be such a blessed and goodly little realm, then there would be no need for undermountain or skullport, however, when you try to eliminate all major evil ( or what have you) you end up with a Jekyll and Hyde solution... Of that one thing We KNOW... Besides... Running Undermountain? That would drive just about anyone crazy. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Zaknafein
Seeker
USA
77 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 03:57:55
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| yes..i've read this book and honestly in the first four chapters i was confused and disappointed. maybe because I havent read anything like this before. but i pursued this book and thought it was a really great read. Hah, gotta hand it to El with his witty remarks to Nergal all the time. and yes its quite disturbing how The Simbul caused more destruction in hell than Lady Mystra herself, as she had to pull back out of Avernus. |
Zaknafein Do'Urden: mentor, teacher, friend....To Zak, the one who inspired my courage. -Drizzt Do'Urden
Full plate and packing steel. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 05:43:05
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| Zak, the Simbul caused more distruction because Mystra is TOO POWERFUL. The reason I say that is because when Mystra used her powers to find Elminster and fight the devils and fiends, she was opening up a rift between Toril and the Nine Hells from the might of her power. The Simbul's magic isn't as powerful so she wouldn't have the power from the Weave to cause disruption and distruction like that. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Zaknafein
Seeker
USA
77 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 23:29:08
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ah good point. i might not have payed close enough attention to that, but i do know that Mystra did indeed cause havok without even flicking her wrists.
thanks for clearing that up |
Zaknafein Do'Urden: mentor, teacher, friend....To Zak, the one who inspired my courage. -Drizzt Do'Urden
Full plate and packing steel. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2004 : 15:20:55
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| Dead right, DDH. Mystra is too powerful to intervene directly without opening a rift (hence her 'powering up' Halaster and others to do her work for her). This is the sort of "metaphysics" that the original Realms campaign has delved deeply into, once we started finding and using gates (WotC dubbed them "portals" in 3e, but they're still the same things Ed was writing about back in DRAGON 37). I still wish Ed's original Hells articles hadn't been censored to take out the talismans, the Lucifer having a son, Lucifuge, and being destroyed by Asmodeus as a result (with his plane given to Lucifer's worst foe, which is why Baalzebul has two), and so on. Awesome stuff. |
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2004 : 11:26:07
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The Hooded One:
It certainly sounds like it. The most prevailing thought I had when reading Elminster In Hell (one of the pitifully fwe I have managed to read) was about the actual social structure of the hells. Only recently in a thread did I realise that chaos plane and hell were in fact different (thanks Sage) and of course it makes sense but you dont always think of these things admittedly.
Particularly, being a great fan of Baldur's Gate, im keen to know how Demogorgon fits into hell, and how much influence/control Cyris has there.
any help and I'll love you forever |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2004 : 13:41:04
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| Demogorgon is a demon from the Abyss. He's an Abyssal Lord. It's all in the Book of Vile Darkness. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2004 : 23:42:25
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| The Book is boring. Fights Fights Fights, bad story. |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2004 : 18:46:50
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| I to want to know about How much influence/control Cyris has there. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 23:22:15
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I'm resurrecting this old scroll. A discussion in another thread has threatened to devolve into a debate about this tome, so I'm returning this thread to prominence.
Let's keep it civil, folks. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 00:48:18
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I was apparently in the wrong frame of mind when I read this novel. I was expecting a thrilling high powered slug fest through Hell. Instead I was presented with an Anthology in sheep's clothing.
While the memory sequences themselves were great Realmslore, it's not want I wanted in a novel titled 'Elminster in Hell'. They distracted severely from the main storyline, and I quickly grew frustrated with the format. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 10:02:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Realmslore
I was apparently in the wrong frame of mind when I read this novel. I was expecting a thrilling high powered slug fest through Hell. Instead I was presented with an Anthology in sheep's clothing.
While the memory sequences themselves were great Realmslore, it's not want I wanted in a novel titled 'Elminster in Hell'. They distracted severely from the main storyline, and I quickly grew frustrated with the format.
Hmm....I`m afraid I don`t follow you there, realmslore. I have read this particular tome about four times and I still love it. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 19:12:58
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One thing that annoys me, if you don't like this novel, Greenwood fans will instantly say you 'weren't in the frame of mind to like it'...I am FULLY capable of preparing to think during my reading. And 'I liked it' isn't the same as 'good', same as 'I didn't like it' and 'poor'
The novel is incredibly redundant and the characters flat and one dimensional. We're told of their intelligence, but never shown. Their canal desires seem to rule them and for the love of Sune, that scene where Mirt asks a woman if she becomes a prostitute due to LONELINESS is disgusting.
Ed can make a great world, but IMO, his novels need work. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 19:14:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Ed can make a great world, but IMO, his novels need work.
Wow. Just, wow.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 19:28:09
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Yes, thank you for that input, Crust. I'm sorry if I don't see the appeal of Ed's apparently godly novels and thus rank as a lesser being in your eyes for not liking the same plot rehashed, the lack of any tension as he'd never put his put his precious baby characters in danger or have them show any sexual inhibition, or even have diverse characters. When I want good realms info I read a sourcebook. When I want a storyline and characters to go with that info, I'll read a novel.
And I'm sorry if I'm disrespecting Ed by DARING to not like some of his novels |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 19:36:39
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| Ethriel, I have so much less-than-three for you. XD |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 19:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Yes, thank you for that input, Crust. I'm sorry if I don't see the appeal of Ed's apparently godly novels and thus rank as a lesser being in your eyes for not liking the same plot rehashed, the lack of any tension as he'd never put his put his precious baby characters in danger or have them show any sexual inhibition, or even have diverse characters. When I want good realms info I read a sourcebook. When I want a storyline and characters to go with that info, I'll read a novel.
And I'm sorry if I'm disrespecting Ed by DARING to not like some of his novels
My apologies. I didn't mean to imply that people who don't like El in Hell are lesser beings or anything like that. If you took it that way, maybe you are a lesser being, and it's infinitely frustrating to see that others realize it.  
All kidding aside, I'm just not seeing valid reasons for the novel being dubbed as "poor." A rusty car with four flat tires is a "poor" car. A student who scores 49/100 on an exam has done a "poor" job. A house with a gaping hole in the roof is a "poor" house. Ed's novels are not poor.
Characters redundant, flat, and one-dimensional? Right there is a prime example of a reader missing a lot, or unconsciously (perhaps consciously) beginning a novel with certain expectations, which is unfair to the author. Of course, the classic message board response is, "I'm not missing anything!" I'm sorry. You are, whether you realize it or not.
Show me examples, and maybe I'll provide the satisfaction of "Yeah, I see your point." If you can't see the examples of characters showing intellect and depth, then you're either not looking for them, you didn't expect to find them before you opened the book, or you're unable to see them when they present themselves.
As one poster mentioned earlier, just because El in Hell isn't what you wanted in a novel does not make it poor. You might not like it, but poor is the wrong word to use. See it for what it is, not for what you expected it to be. "It wasn't what I wanted, so it's poor." That's what we call ignorance.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 20 Aug 2005 19:55:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 19:57:32
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If a person does not like a novel, they can call it poor -- it's their call. Certainly, any novel that does not entertain a person can be regarded in a negative manner.
This debate grows wearisome. This makes two threads that have been closed because of it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Elminster in Hell (spoilers)
Topic Locked
