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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 16:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
As the Companion came from Avernus originally (forged by Bel), it could have been a planetar kidnapped/captured a decade prior to its forging, a century prior to its forging, or a millennium prior to its forging (or longer). There's no specific way to know or determine when the planetar was captured, only its name (Nascius).
Per Planescape, celestials do interfere in the Blood War, including a rather well-known and lengthy adventure about a deva who hid their celestial-ness inside a demon to rather awkward side effects. And one should also never forget the Maeldur, which if I am recalling correctly was a captured and corrupted solar that the yugoloths turned into a matrix hub allowing demons and devils to teleport without error. If a solar can be snitched by the Forces Of Eternal And Infinite Darkness-Bad-Evil, I don't think that a planetar going missing is going to break any camel backs. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 16:52:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
As the Companion came from Avernus originally (forged by Bel), it could have been a planetar kidnapped/captured a decade prior to its forging, a century prior to its forging, or a millennium prior to its forging (or longer). There's no specific way to know or determine when the planetar was captured, only its name (Nascius).
Per Planescape, celestials do interfere in the Blood War, including a rather well-known and lengthy adventure about a deva who hid their celestial-ness inside a demon to rather awkward side effects. And one should also never forget the Maeldur, which if I am recalling correctly was a captured and corrupted solar that the yugoloths turned into a matrix hub allowing demons and devils to teleport without error. If a solar can be snitched by the Forces Of Eternal And Infinite Darkness-Bad-Evil, I don't think that a planetar going missing is going to break any camel backs.
And while I'm perhaps unique in my dislike of the books, I seem to recall the Sojourner doing the something similar in the Erevis Cale books. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 17:21:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's plenty of really questionable things in both editions. 4E was more definitive on its info, even if that info was... odd. But 5E's deliberate vagueness means we don't know anything for certain, any more, because the designers won't touch it if they don't have to.
I do prefer definite answers, even if I don't like the answers, over vagueness any day.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
As the Companion came from Avernus originally (forged by Bel), it could have been a planetar kidnapped/captured a decade prior to its forging, a century prior to its forging, or a millennium prior to its forging (or longer). There's no specific way to know or determine when the planetar was captured, only its name (Nascius).
Per Planescape, celestials do interfere in the Blood War, including a rather well-known and lengthy adventure about a deva who hid their celestial-ness inside a demon to rather awkward side effects. And one should also never forget the Maeldur, which if I am recalling correctly was a captured and corrupted solar that the yugoloths turned into a matrix hub allowing demons and devils to teleport without error. If a solar can be snitched by the Forces Of Eternal And Infinite Darkness-Bad-Evil, I don't think that a planetar going missing is going to break any camel backs.
Right. I had forgotten that in D&D, the forces of good are always useless. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 17:30:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's plenty of really questionable things in both editions. 4E was more definitive on its info, even if that info was... odd. But 5E's deliberate vagueness means we don't know anything for certain, any more, because the designers won't touch it if they don't have to.
I do prefer definite answers, even if I don't like the answers, over vagueness any day.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
As the Companion came from Avernus originally (forged by Bel), it could have been a planetar kidnapped/captured a decade prior to its forging, a century prior to its forging, or a millennium prior to its forging (or longer). There's no specific way to know or determine when the planetar was captured, only its name (Nascius).
Per Planescape, celestials do interfere in the Blood War, including a rather well-known and lengthy adventure about a deva who hid their celestial-ness inside a demon to rather awkward side effects. And one should also never forget the Maeldur, which if I am recalling correctly was a captured and corrupted solar that the yugoloths turned into a matrix hub allowing demons and devils to teleport without error. If a solar can be snitched by the Forces Of Eternal And Infinite Darkness-Bad-Evil, I don't think that a planetar going missing is going to break any camel backs.
Right. I had forgotten that in D&D, the forces of good are always useless.
I believe the quote you are looking for comes from Lord Helmet: "Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 18:55:14
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| That is one of the reasons I don't like Planescape. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 19:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
That is one of the reasons I don't like Planescape.
I never did a deep dive into the Planescape stuff. Is that a problem with all of it or just the parts dealing with the "evil planes"? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 20:28:58
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I never did a deep dive into the Planescape stuff. Is that a problem with all of it or just the parts dealing with the "evil planes"?
I don't have a problem with the evil planes (besides those utterly dangerous that become unusable in game) or effective evil. Clever villains are good to put a challenge to the players. My problem is with the good planes and the idea that the good guys are utterly useless and dumb.
Planescape is transparent in its intent to show that if not for the Blood War and the forces of evil battling each other, the multiverse would be destroyed because the forces of good are unable to do anything about it. Not because they are outnumbered (that, IIRC, is the case), just because they are utterly stupid and do nothing to save the multiverse. They just chill out in the planes of good. If any agent of good tries to do anything about it, is turned evil because good is not allowed to have intelligent and proactive agents (see Zariel).
I don't like that. I think this is just lazy writing, and I really prefer 4e's take on it: the forces of good are small and may cannot win against the vastly numerous forces of evil, but they are clever and play evil vs evil. They allow the Blood War to happen and orchestrate evil god vs evil god wars so they can buy time to train their own forces, so they will be prepared when Armageddon comes.
Had this adventure have been written for 4e, even if the gods cannot interfere, they would have recruited the pcs to look for the lost planetar. Even if in the end Zariel activates the Insidiator (we need Elturel in hell for this adventure), the forces of good would at least have tried to stop her, instead of doing nothing about it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Jun 2021 20:32:20 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2021 : 01:16:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Had this adventure have been written for 4e, even if the gods cannot interfere, they would have recruited the pcs to look for the lost planetar. Even if in the end Zariel activates the Insidiator (we need Elturel in hell for this adventure), the forces of good would at least have tried to stop her, instead of doing nothing about it.
The bolding is mine as a note: this doesnt sound like the published adventure (Descent into Avernus) that youre describing with a plot of finding a lost planetar, but a prequel to the published adventure where the Companion is used to drag Elturel to Hell, and in this prequel the PCs canonically failed and Hell got away with the kidnapped planetar. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2021 : 02:36:44
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| -Hey, if I was an angel/spirit/whatever chilling in eternal bliss in the heavens, I'd continue chilling. While it's probably not their intent, I can see "the forces of good" being slow to react for precisely this reason. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2021 : 13:58:30
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If I remember correctly, didn't Zariel serve Lathander before her fall? If so, she could not have come from Mount Celestia, unless angels can somehow be based in realms other than their deities.
I can definitely see pre-fall Zariel serving Lathander since both beings are notoriously activist. After all, Lathander instigated the Dawn Cataclysm. Zariel could probably be credited as the one who instituted/promoted the hellreaver prestige class that was introducedin Fiendish Codex II.
In Mount Celestia, the Triad could have forcibly reined her in. As much as Tyr and company would like to smite fiends, they have no use for mavericks and loose cannons such as Zariel. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2021 : 14:56:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
If I remember correctly, didn't Zariel serve Lathander before her fall?
She did, or at least when the folk of Idyllglen prayed to Lathander for aid, Lathander was able to arrange for Zariel to come and aid them. The details of the relationship between the two aren't specified, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lathander had been aiming to recruit her away from Mount Celestia to join him in Eronia. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2021 : 19:25:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
If I remember correctly, didn't Zariel serve Lathander before her fall?
She did, or at least when the folk of Idyllglen prayed to Lathander for aid, Lathander was able to arrange for Zariel to come and aid them. The details of the relationship between the two aren't specified, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lathander had been aiming to recruit her away from Mount Celestia to join him in Eronia.
That sounds very likely. I would not put it past Lathander to poach celestials from other deities, especially in his younger days. Your idea would also resolve a 5E continuity issue, which makes it all the sweeter. I am making your idea as part of my headcanon.  |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 14:58:28
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Resurrecting this thread to talk about Elversult's second sun...
First off, I really appreciate Eric Boyd chiming in this thread to mention this was his idea as an example of high level play, intended for players to find a way to end the spell and go "wow he was a real Karsus", and that further designers took it in new directions.
I'm prepping a campaign based on a githyanki incursion centered on the western Sea of Fallen Stars (Sembia, Cormyr, the Dragon Coast, Turmish), and with Amaunator's Eternal Sun (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Amaunator's_eternal_sun?so=search) above Elversult mentioned in "Power of Faerūn" & "Grand History of the Realms", I decided it was interesting enough to keep and puzzle out my theory/interpretation for.
What if the second sun over Elversult acted as a deterrent to all the cults and criminals that were active in the city, flushing them out of the shadows and into the light of day, but as time goes on the intensity diminishes so that it's "high noon" bright around the city's immediate environs, but outside of the city it's more like Norway with its amber "midnight sun" seeming to blur sunset/sunrise and washing the land in hues of ruddy light. When you're near the edge of the effect, like Teziir or headed south from Suzail, its more like an optical illusion where at sunrise/sunset if you soften your gaze you perceive a blurry second (or even third) image of the sun.
My theory is that the light being evoked by the spell comes from the stars known as Amaunator's Belt; I'm interpreting that as a stand in for three stars akin to our Orion's Belt. However the spell's long-term purpose is not LIGHT (like Daelegoth Orndeir used it for), but TIME-KEEPING (the other part of Amaunator's profile), and actually serves as a countdown to a portal effect connecting these stars and/or the Astral to Faerūn. The magic creates a "false alignment" of these three stars, so that they appear as the sun, but it's not the same heat as The Sun.
We know from "Faiths & Avatars" that Amaunator died and drifted on the Astral Plane for a time: "The truth is that with the loss of nearly all his followers in Netheril after its fall, Amaunator began the long, arduous, and painful process of dying of neglect. After about a millennium, he did not have enough power left to maintain the Keep of the Eternal Sun on Mechanus and was ruthlessly exiled to the Astral Plane. His corpse now drifts with the endless astral tides, awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit may help him regain his once-proud heritage."
What if the githyanki found Amaunator's body before he was revived? Could they have "seeded" the spell into the god's subconscious or somehow created a magical backdoor for them to use the spell in the future? Or even might the githyanki have come to some deal with the lawfully minded dead Amaunator?
And to get even more wild...
We know from "Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves" that there are time gates, the first of which "...lies hidden upon the back of the mountains, where the ice and rocks touch the summer sky of Amaunator's belt." This is commonly interpreted as being a cave in the Spine of the World mountains from which the constellation Amaunator's belt is visible from the mountains in summer.
So what if where the light from Elversult's "second sun" actually the light of the three stars of Amaunator's Belt touches a mountain range is where the time gate lies (i.e. the Sunset Mountains, Storm Horns, Troll Mountains, or Giant's Run Mountains). This was a way for Amaunator to fight back against the githyanki tampering with the epic spell without breaking his word (or his oath to Mystra not to interfere in the domain of magic), by providing heroes a way to undo the wrong that had been done. |
Edited by - Quickleaf on 09 Apr 2022 15:02:33 |
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Elturgard's Eternal Sun
