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Originally posted by MrHedgehog

So I just noticed Elturgard having an ETERNAL SUN. I am pretty sure that would not be any better than eternal darkness. Without darkness people can't sleep, people who don't sleep go insane, this would disrupt nature (what happens to nocturnal animals like owls?), and if it is always high noon water would evaporate more quickly, etc. How is this good? It would cause chaos!

When I read power of Faerun I didn't realize Amaunatar's Eternal Sun was permanent before. I thought it was a temporary miracle or something not something that would last FOREVER.

Also, if this sun was created by priests of Lathander/Amaunatar why is Torm the state religion? (Not that there should be state religions in the realms since it contravenes the nature of religion as explained by the world's creators....)

(I don't own or have access to a copy of the 4th edition Campaign Setting I saw this on forgotten realms wiki.)

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Originally posted by MrHedgehog (snip) Also, if this sun was created by priests of Lathander/Amaunatar why is Torm the state religion? (Not that there should be state religions in the realms since it contravenes the nature of religion as explained by the world's creators....) (snip)

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One of my favourite themes for the backstories of the campaigns I run is that of heresy. I find the idea of heretical movements within ostensibly Good and Lawful Good religions to be fuel for a range of NPCs, events, encounters, adventures and campaigns.

There was an excellent DDi article written by Erik Scott de Bie in Dungeon 171 titled The Eye of Justice. It was about a heretical sect in the church of Torm based in Westgate.

The church of Torm is the state religion in the nation of Elturgard which is distinguished by the existence of a second son, known as The Companion, created as a Epic spell (3.5e) or Epic ritual (4E) by a pre-Spellplague heretic known as Daelegoth Orndeir. Orndeir was a follower of Amaunator at a time when believing in Amaunator was a heresy within the church of Lathander. Furthermore, he was a believer in the Three-Faced Sun heresy which postulated that there were three aspects to the sun deity - dawn, highsun and dusk - and that only two could be "showing" at any one time. According to Orndeir and his then-fellow heretics, Lathander represented the dawn, Amaunator, highsun and Myrkul, dusk. Myrkul's demise meant that Amaunator should be ascendant at the same time as Lathander.

We do not know canonically how this situation was resolved before or during the Spellplague but we do know that Amaunator is definitely ascendant, as a greater power, no less, in the 4E Realms. One of the things I liked about Amaunator even during the 2E period was here was a Lawful Good deity who could just as easily be Lawful Evil (3.5E and earlier) or Evil (4E). In fact, I see Amaunator as a challenger of Bane for the portfolio of tyranny.

So, back to Torm as the state religion of Elturgard.

It seems strange when you first read the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (FRCG) that the state religion of Elturgard, with such a powerful and obvious display of Amaunator's might by way of The Companion, should be that of Torm. Unless, of course, you also look at how it talks about a darkness sealed within Fort Morninglord (which is also off-limits on pain of death) and consider that Amaunator has a tyrannical streak within him... as do, no doubt, some of his followers.

So, what if Orndeir's heresies extended into outright apostasy and he came to embrace Bane? Perhaps he also saw Bane as the true heir of the mantle of dusk from Myrkul. If he believed that, then it would be very easy for Bane to lure him over to his side as a natural outgrowth of his believe in the (heresy of) The Three-Faced Sun.

So, let's assume that Elturgard's first state religion was Amaunatori in nature, with Daelegoth Orndeir as Righteous Potentate (as high priests of Amaunator were styled). In due course, Orndeir took to himself a more majestic title of Supreme Righteous Potentate as he sought, driven in part by the whispers of Bane, to extend his golden rule of light and law across all of Faerūn.

In due course, sometime during the years of the Spellplague, the tyrannies of the Supreme Righteous Potentate were opposed by heroic followers of Torm and, eventually, Orndeir was overthrown. So ashamed were other Amaunatori of this episode in the history of their religion, particularly at a time when Amaunator was making an obvious return, that they agreed to pass rulership of Elturgard to the Tormites and to hide the records of this era, and an imprisoned Orndeir, beneath Fort Morninglord.

Fast forward a few decades and the church of Torm is very much in charge but, like the Amaunatori before them, are becoming increasingly strident, harsh, cruel and tyrannical. Add to this the heresies of The Eye of Justice mentioned above and you can see that Elturgard is being taken over by the whispers of Bane once more except this time it is the Tormites who are being persuaded by his subtleties.

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(snip)And how did the eternal sun move from Elversult to its new location far to the west? (The spell plague...?) Or is it a new casting of the epic spell? (snip)

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Originally posted by MrHedgehog

Derulbaskul I love your blog!!

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Originally posted by MrHedgehog

Also, if this sun was created by priests of Lathander/Amaunatar why is Torm the state religion?

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban


Finally, if the sun over Elturel is the same magic as the one that was over Elversult, that means that there is no night in Scornubel, Soubar, Triel, Hardbuckler, a good portion of The Reaching Woods, over half of The Wood of Sharp Teeth, the soutwest portion of The Forrest of Wyrms, and an area that almost reaches to The Troll Hills (a good portion of the Fields of the Dead). Is that mentioned in any works after the 1440s?

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

The enigma behind the second sun of Elturel is revealed in the adventure "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus". The second sun, aka The Companion or Amaunator's Gift, was actually a trapped planetar whitin a Solar Insidiator, a device created by Zariel, archdevil of Avernus, as part of a plot to trap and steal the city away to the Nine Hells. The light The Companion illuminated the land day and night, and suffused all of Elturel. However, it produced no heat. It harmed light-allergic beings, such as the undead. The Companion can be destroyed during in the events of this adventure.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I see no reason to assume it's providing the full heat of the sun, as well. If it was, it wouldn't just make everything a desert, it'd melt everything.

And it's obviously not providing the full light of the sun, since under normal circumstances what is seen from the real sun is diminished by distance and atmosphere.

The conclusion, then, is that the mini-sun has a greatly diminished output of light and heat, and that the end result is the permanent conditions of a sunny day. Note that even this does not necessarily include more heat from having two suns; I'm sure we've all been outside on a clear day during wintertime.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban


The spell description says that it does provide the full brightness of the sun and since it was cast at midsummer, I would say it would replicate what was being provided then (otherwise, if it replicated winter, it would actually be brighter outside the area of effect when it was cast).

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Also, it says it "creates a miniature sun" and not the image of a sun so I would say that implies heat as well. Remember, this spell was created by a sun zealot and not a druid or other environmentally aware faith. He couldn't have cared less about environmental effects as long as it generated the worship he was looking for. Combine that with the school of magic (Evocation-Fire) and having a spell that replicates noon at the middle of summer is exactly what he was aiming for (including warmth). Since the spell does say it blocks the real sun, I would say that it blocks everything from that sun including heat. That way, it isn't hotter than normal for summer where you are in the area of effect, it just isn't any cooler, either.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Finally, by having the spell have detrimental effects also feeds into the "be careful what you wish for" motif and also re-enforces Mystra's mantra of carefully considering just what effects your magic is going to have. Sure, the guy that cast the spell got the worshippers he is looking for but he also angered others to varying degrees. Mayhap even enough to generate a crusade against the guy and his band of heretics by some other god's church. Really, the more detrimental the effects, the larger the number of groups interested in stopping it and that means more adventure hooks with higher stakes.

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This spell is on page 60 of the 3e Power of Faerun book by the esteemed Misters Greenwood and Boyd. That pedigree would trump any other source as far as I am concerned.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Not going to quote all that since I don't want a mile long posting. Also, to be clear, I am talking about the sun over Elversult as created by the epic spell Aumaunator's Eternal Sun.

Section 1
The description says exactly what the size of the sun is: "The sun's apparent size (the same as the real sun, subtending about 0.5 degrees in sky) stays the same regardless of a viewer's distance from it." If it is the same size as the real sun at the normal distance, then any heat, light, etc. should match what is received from the real sun. Also, luminosity does vary by 1/r^2 with r being the distance from the source. If you are further away, it is less. It may not be visible to the human eye but there is technically a difference. (Luminosity reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminosity)

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Section 2
The guy was smart enough not to want to drop a sun in his lap but he didn't consider all the ramification of the spell. Karsus is the posterchild for that.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Section 3
I am going from exactly what the source material says. It says the area of effect is 150 miles. Suzail is about 120 miles away from Elversult per the FRIA. That falls within the area of effect just like Pros, Illipur, Teziir, and the Lake of Dragons. Just because someone didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. This spell is on page 60 of the 3e Power of Faerun book by the esteemed Misters Greenwood and Boyd. That pedigree would trump any other source as far as I am concerned. Now, if either one of them would like to say that was a typo and it should have been only 15 miles, I will withdraw my argument. But, heat or no heat, Suzail and a BUNCH of other places didn't have a night until the epic spell over Elversult was dispelled. I am just saying that the spell, by way of the "creates a miniature sun" and it being Evocation-Fire, also implies heat so those effects should be considered as well.

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