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KevinKraft
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 18:11:41
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Hello all...does anyone know how to pronounce things in Elvin? In many of the forgotten realms books, elf character proper names have an "ae" spelling. How is that pronounced? Is it the short a "a" sound as in "bat"? Or is it two syllables such as "Ah-eh"?
Here are some words from "Bladesinger". Any idea how to pronounce?:
Taen
Aelrindel
laeriaen
Tael
kaer'vaelen
also:
Tel' Quessir
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 20:45:54
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I've always pronounced the "ae" sound the same way as "ay". So, a theoretical elven name of Dae would rhyme with day or weigh.
I pronounce Tel'Quessir as "tell kwes ear". |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 20:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always pronounced the "ae" sound the same way as "ay". So, a theoretical elven name of Dae would rhyme with day or weigh.
Indeed. Like the variant of fairy: faerie. Both are pronounced the same. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 21:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always pronounced the "ae" sound the same way as "ay". So, a theoretical elven name of Dae would rhyme with day or weigh.
I pronounce Tel'Quessir as "tell kwes ear".
LOL, I just in the other thread told him this one could cause disagreements. I've always said it as "tell kae seer". I'd almost say we should have a poll on this. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 21:34:41
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| I go with the kwes pronunciation because of works like question, quest, query, etc. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 22:29:04
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| This might work for English words, but elven is a very different language. Letters/sounds we take for granted either do not exist in Elvish, or are modified, sometimes heavily. I wish I still had the pronunciation guide, as it was quite informative. There is one for drow language on Eilistraee.com that might help, since the language was originally based on elven, but it might also need a little work. Anyway, from the studies I've done of both languages, the qu seems to have two distinct sounds. One is like in quest, the other is more like a "k" sound. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 01:01:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Wooly, I'm not entirely certain, but I think the "Quess" of Quessir is pronounced like "Kess ear". I ran across an elven translator a few years ago that had pronunciation guide with it, but the site is no longer active. It was "The Grey Company" elven dictionary and translator site.
As I recall, Steven Schend has said that the translator approximates a fairly decent capability for pronouncing some of the more frequented elven terms. I can't recall whether he specifically said anything about the "Kess" for "Quessir," though... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 01:02:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
This might work for English words, but elven is a very different language. Letters/sounds we take for granted either do not exist in Elvish, or are modified, sometimes heavily.
This is largely why I keep the "kess" sound for humans pronouncing "Quessir," and the "kwes" pronunciation for the elves themselves. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 02:12:32
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I agree with the "kwes" pronunciation. In my mind, the elven language would default to 'softer' sounds. 'K' is a hard consonent, but when added with a q and blended with a 'w' sound, it makes it softer in my mind.
Im unsure about the "ae" or even "ea" sound. In many languages, you would pronounce the second letter and leave the first one silent. But I have always pronounce "ae" ad 'ay' (as in the example of day, above). I sense a query to Ed coming  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 22 Nov 2012 02:15:54 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 02:50:06
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| As I said, I'm basing the pronunciation off of my studies of both elven and drow language as well as a familiarity with the pronunciations several of real-world languages. Based on context, various phrases and the "flow" of how the two languages sound when spoken, I believe the k sound makes more sense, at least for that particular term. As I said, it seems to be largely dependant on the word in question and how it fits with other words around it, but elven appears to use a much more varied pronunciation of certain letters or syllables. Which is fitting for a language that is intended to be musical and highly sophisticated. |
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"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 09:52:32
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Since in portuguese the letters "que" sound like "ke", and for the elven language to sound a bit more complex, in my games I chose to use "kwe-seer". We have some words that have the "kwe" pronunciation, but they are rarer, and graphed "qüe".
Edit: And although I haven't studied it, my younger brother studied Tolkien's Quenia, and he pronounced it "Kweh-nya"... Since he's quite a perfectionist, and studied a bit of dozens of languages, having lived in Japan for a couple of years, I think his pronunciation is correct. 
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Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
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(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 22 Nov 2012 17:16:49 |
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KevinKraft
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 12:26:05
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Thank you all for your posts. Much appreciated! Aalystra, it appears the website you recommended is still around:
http://www.grey-company.org/Language/
I'll explore it. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 21:51:05
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| I was just going to post the link for the Grey Company. It is a great site for questions on the elvish language, and the variations there of. I am glad the link was posted. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2012 : 19:47:00
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I generally assume that letters are used purposefully to represent specific sounds, or phoneme(s). It doesn't make sense, and only sows confusion, to use different spellings for the same sounds.
Therefore, it does not make sense to me to spell something "Quessir" when it is pronounced "kessir." You've got a perfectly good letter "k" lying around, why wouldn't you just use that, if that is what you meant?
In Latin, the letter "Q" evolved to represent a "K" sound with a rounding of the lips, a "Kw" sound. Letter "Q" was used only before rounded vowels like "o" and "u." This was preserved in English, but you only see it rarely when followed by letter "u."
If Tolkien is any guide (and I submit that he is, or at least his aesthetic is) he used the letter "Q" in precisely this same way, as a "Kw" sound.
Now, the elves don't use the Latin alphabet to write their language. They use the Espruar script. So any elvish words we see written in the Latin alphabet are either a phonetic representation of elvish in the Latin script or alternatively a transliteration, using the Latin alphabet to transcribe the Espruar symbols into their closest Latin alphabet equivalents (based on certain conventions).
Now if the Latin alphabet is used to represent elvish phonetically, then we should assume that every letter or combination of letters was chosen to be as accurate a representation of the sounds as possible, thus "Qu" should definitely represent a different sound than "k."
If, however, the Latin alphabet is being used to transliterate the Espruar spelling of elvish words, then I suppose it is possible for it to transliterate some odd spelling irregularities (if Espruar has any), possibly representing elisions or sound changes due to language change over time. However, it would be very strange indeed if those spelling irregularities were the same as English or European spelling conventions. In which case, "Qu" could, for instance, represent "Gw" or "ch" or "zh" or even a glottal stop. That is to say: if "Qu" doesn't represent what it appears to represent, the "Kw" sound. Then it is a leap to think that it must represent the "k" sound in the same manner as it does in say French, and not some other sound or sound combination.
And if we want to open up the possibilities, "Q" is often used to transliterate more exotic sounding phonemes from non-European languages. For instance in Arabic and other Semitic languages, "Q" is used to transliterate a voiceless uvular stop — which sounds kind of like a "k" but only pronounced much farther back in the throat, touching your tongue to your uvula. Albanian uses "Q" to represent a voiceless palatal stop, which sounds sort of between a "ch" and a "ky." Pinyin uses "Q" to represent a sound similar to "ch." Some Native American languages use "Q" for a glottal stop. And some African languages use "Q" to represent a click sound.
While all these possibilities are interesting, I submit that the simplest explanation, and most pleasing and satisfying to my ear and reasoning, is to pronounce "Qu" as "Kw." Of course, all this is moot, if Stephen Schend or Ed or George or Eric Boyd or someone in the know can tell us definitively one way or another.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 00:58:06
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| Hmm... I was actually leaning more along the lines of the French sounds; for some reason, it seems to be the language (IMHO) that most closely relates to Elvish, given how both are considered to be fairly "lyrical". I think that was the reason it stuck in my mind of it having that sound. I would almost say that elven language might even be Faerun's version of a "Romance" language. (ie- the languages that were originally derived from Roman/Latin, but are also considered "romantic" in terms of sound.) Anywho, I suppose it would depend on how you look at the langauge, and that was the direction I approached it from. YMMV, of course. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 06:33:28
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| Tolkien's elvish is always related to Welsh and/or Finnish. Both are very lilting as well. When I hear Tolkien speak elvish, it should like a mix of the 2 to me (I wish it was closer to french, it would be easier for me to get down). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 12:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I generally assume that letters are used purposefully to represent specific sounds, or phoneme(s). It doesn't make sense, and only sows confusion, to use different spellings for the same sounds.
Therefore, it does not make sense to me to spell something "Quessir" when it is pronounced "kessir." You've got a perfectly good letter "k" lying around, why wouldn't you just use that, if that is what you meant?
In Latin, the letter "Q" evolved to represent a "K" sound with a rounding of the lips, a "Kw" sound. Letter "Q" was used only before rounded vowels like "o" and "u." This was preserved in English, but you only see it rarely when followed by letter "u."
If Tolkien is any guide (and I submit that he is, or at least his aesthetic is) he used the letter "Q" in precisely this same way, as a "Kw" sound.
Now, the elves don't use the Latin alphabet to write their language. They use the Espruar script. So any elvish words we see written in the Latin alphabet are either a phonetic representation of elvish in the Latin script or alternatively a transliteration, using the Latin alphabet to transcribe the Espruar symbols into their closest Latin alphabet equivalents (based on certain conventions).
Now if the Latin alphabet is used to represent elvish phonetically, then we should assume that every letter or combination of letters was chosen to be as accurate a representation of the sounds as possible, thus "Qu" should definitely represent a different sound than "k."
If, however, the Latin alphabet is being used to transliterate the Espruar spelling of elvish words, then I suppose it is possible for it to transliterate some odd spelling irregularities (if Espruar has any), possibly representing elisions or sound changes due to language change over time. However, it would be very strange indeed if those spelling irregularities were the same as English or European spelling conventions. In which case, "Qu" could, for instance, represent "Gw" or "ch" or "zh" or even a glottal stop. That is to say: if "Qu" doesn't represent what it appears to represent, the "Kw" sound. Then it is a leap to think that it must represent the "k" sound in the same manner as it does in say French, and not some other sound or sound combination.
And if we want to open up the possibilities, "Q" is often used to transliterate more exotic sounding phonemes from non-European languages. For instance in Arabic and other Semitic languages, "Q" is used to transliterate a voiceless uvular stop — which sounds kind of like a "k" but only pronounced much farther back in the throat, touching your tongue to your uvula. Albanian uses "Q" to represent a voiceless palatal stop, which sounds sort of between a "ch" and a "ky." Pinyin uses "Q" to represent a sound similar to "ch." Some Native American languages use "Q" for a glottal stop. And some African languages use "Q" to represent a click sound.
While all these possibilities are interesting, I submit that the simplest explanation, and most pleasing and satisfying to my ear and reasoning, is to pronounce "Qu" as "Kw." Of course, all this is moot, if Stephen Schend or Ed or George or Eric Boyd or someone in the know can tell us definitively one way or another.
This is well thought out. I had hoped that someone might come back with a reference somewhere where the pronunciation was actually called out. I submit that I fell prey to the same trap I myself had warned against (i.e. don't overthink the way things sound). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 13:40:35
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I've always pronounced Quessir as Kess-Ear. I do this because it has the look of the infinitive form of a Spanish IR verb, and the way that you pronounce Que is spanish is "Keh." It is intriguing to me that so many people leaning on the English pronunciation for the first half of the word, resort to a Romance pronunciation for the last half (ir = ear instead of Ehr).
I feel confident in doing this because Elven is probably not meant to sound like English, since it's not Common and all.
AE is in the WoT audio books is pronounced Eye. Aes Sedai always sounds like Eyes Sedai. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 19:37:09
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I pronounce Quessir as kwessir and any stuff with ae as ae. But the ae thing is the influence of my native language, in which you pronounce stuff as it's spelled. I'm aware it should be ey, like in Faerun /Fejrun/.
For some reason, I pronounce Faerun correctly, it's just in other words my inner translator refuses to cooperate. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 21:43:07
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It's interesting that French and Spanish were mentioned as examples of how to pronounce "Qu." Note that both languages at one point actually pronounced the "Qu" spelling as "Kw," back when they were dialects of Vulgar Latin. But over the centuries the "Kw" sound lost the labialization (or lip rounding) in those dialects, yet maintained the spelling. However, the labialization of Q has been maintained in other Latin daughter languages (as it has in English).
Note that Spanish has kept the labialization of Q in certain pronunciations such as in cuesta and cual, but at some point changed the spelling to "cu."
Languages change their sounds over time. A startling number of European and Indian languages spoken today evolved from a single hypothetical language dubbed "Proto-Indo-European," which splintered into thousands of dialects and daughter languages through gradual changes in pronunciation (as well as grammar, vocabulary and syntax.) Check out this link for examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIE_sound_law
and this link for some general principles of sound change: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_change
Now the Latin alphabet, when it was invented, matched the Latin language quite nicely. As Latin split into different dialects, becoming different languages, the Latin spellings were often maintained or adapted, when the sounds in the words they represented had changed, sometimes almost unrecognizably from the way they were spelled. Which is why there are soooo many silent letters in French. The letters are vestigial. They are still there in the spelling when the sound is long gone from the pronunciation.
Sadly, most modern day languages are still trying to make due with the 23 letters of the Latin alphabet when they have many more sounds that require representing. Even with the later addition of J, U, and W, the Latin alphabet is still insufficient to represent all the 40 or so necessary sounds of English. That's why we have so many digraphs like "ch" and "th" and "gh," etc. Many other languages have invented all sorts of accent marks and modifications to existing letters to jerry-rig the alphabet to meet their needs.
I don't know if elvish orthography is very regular or irregular. We don't have much, if any, examples of elven writing using the Espruar script. It would be interesting to analyse an elven corpus to see. I don't know how much sound change has accrued in elven dialects over time. Elves are so long lived, I imagine they have a lot of linguistic inertia that works to preserve and maintain the language, with many generations of elders around to correct and instruct the younger elves in the proper use of the elvish language.
Elvish has changed enough since circa -24,000 DR when the elves first came from Tintageer that it has evolved into a different language from the Seldruin tongue they spoke. They have also adopted a different alphabet since then. Seldruin was written in the hammarfae script. Modern elvish is written in Espruar. Since the Espruar alphabet is relatively new, and crafted specifically to represent the elvish language, I assume that the alphabet may match the phonology of the modern elvish tongue fairly accurately. That's not to say that a few sound changes or odd spellings could not have accrued over a few thousand years. But to the extent that the spelling of elvish words in the Latin alphabet may be transliterations from the Espruar script, rather than phonetic representations of spoken elvish words, I would suggest that whatever transliteration conventions were adopted would reflect a regular and meaningful distinction, such that if something is spelled with a "q" it represents a sound or spelling that must be different from "k," otherwise why would it be spelled with a different letter in Espruar? If Espruar is a good phonetic map of spoken elvish, then a different letter indicates a different sound. And if not, then (barring a good reason) the transliteration would just use "k" for both letters.
All this to say that there is no reason to think that the particular peculiarities of French or Spanish orthography, which use an alphabet that was not designed for those languages, and which have accrued sound changes and odd spelling conventions from a long dead parent language that sounded much different than they do, should be replicated in a completely unrelated language of a different race from another world with different aesthetic sensibilities that writes in a different, unrelated alphabet from the Latin alphabet altogether.
However, if you still just feel like pronouncing "Qu" as "K" because you think Elvish reminds you of French or Spanish, well then, knock yourself out. Unless Steven or Ed or someone in the know says otherwise, your guess is as good as mine. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 22:59:06
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Which is, if I'm reading that correctly, just a really long and round-about way of saying it could go either way. While it's certainly true that a language usually has different spellings to denote different sounds, one must also consider that some languages (English as a prime culprit, though Japanese seems to do the same somewhat frequently) have multiple spellings- and meanings- for the same sound. Example- two, to, and too. Same sound in all three, but all mean something different, and are thus spelled differently, primarily using context to determin which is being used.
For all we know, elvish may have similar issues. Using a language based on its (assumed) component sounds, rather than simply its aphabet or that of a translation, may be more productive than trying to work the opposite direction. To that end, I felt that French or Spanish- and to a lesser extent Gaelic- seemed closest to how elvish should sound. And while both langauages were rooted in the Latin alphabet, they also too many influences from the indigious cultures living in those lands in ancient times, ie, mainland Gauls (Celts) and others. Those "native" tongues also had a lot to do with how the languages evolved. Latin was a borrowed langauge for them, not the one they originally spoke. So it would make sense that the languages would change. In the same way, Spanish in North America has been heavily influenced by the many Native American languages that were here when the Conquistadors arrved. As an example, the state I live in is Texas, which is an English corruption of the word Tejas, which the Spanish "borrowed" (with their own changes to spelling and pronunciation) from local tribes. It means "friends". At its root, it SHOULD be pronounced Tay-has, but we just say it as Tex-us. The word has drifted substantially from its origin, obviously.
For the record, I'd actually like to see an "official" pronunciation guide to elvish, dwarven, and even draconic! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Elvin pronunciations
