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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 03:40:18
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Is it safe to say that all the monstrous deities in the 2e Monstrous Mythology book have a presence in the Realms? I know most of them do and was wondering if all of them did. If not, which ones definitely do not have a presence? (or did but no longer around for some reason, like Panzuriel, for example)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 04:59:24
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I'm certain we've covered this in a previous discussion scroll, before, with notable quotes from Carl Sargent [which I collected from the PLANESCAPE Mailing List] and input from Eric Boyd as well.
I can't find it in the archives, though. Maybe it was under some more obscure scroll title. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 09:44:59
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| I'd like to know about it, too. Does any other sage remembers where this discussion is? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 20:40:57
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| Yeah that's a topic I was looking for too but could not find. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 23:15:49
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Well, I don't recall such as Mellifleur having a presence...
It might be that you must search on an individual name basis to find the scroll. My M.M. is packed away, so I don't have it at hand to pull names from. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 02:10:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Well, I don't recall such as Mellifleur having a presence...
I'll note that Powers & Pantheons references 'Mellifleur' as an alias of Velsharoon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 02:14:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Well, I don't recall such as Mellifleur having a presence...
I'll note that Powers & Pantheons references 'Mellifleur' as an alias of Velsharoon.
HOLY...how did I miss that. <sigh> I think that was a coupling I didn't like maybe...and so I didn't stash it in my brain.
Mellifleur is so very different from the way Velsharoon has been written in the Forgotten Realms.
I see the reference now though...I'm not disagreeing with it. Only that I never really saw the two as being similar with what I know about Velsharoon. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 08:30:19
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Eytan Bernstein wrote in this web article here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070627
about the giant fungus, Araumycos, that extends beneath the High Forest:
"Some whisper that the creature is an avatar of Psilofyr, the lord of the Myconids, but this is only a theory."
This is a theory that I personally espouse. That Araumycos is either an avatar, or perhaps a seraph/chosen of Psilofyr. I suppose it's even possible he started out as a normal-sized myconid, that took root, and, over the millennia, has grown to his current size. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 19:28:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Well, I don't recall such as Mellifleur having a presence...
I'll note that Powers & Pantheons references 'Mellifleur' as an alias of Velsharoon.
HOLY...how did I miss that. <sigh> I think that was a coupling I didn't like maybe...and so I didn't stash it in my brain.
Mellifleur is so very different from the way Velsharoon has been written in the Forgotten Realms.
I see the reference now though...I'm not disagreeing with it. Only that I never really saw the two as being similar with what I know about Velsharoon.
Yeah, and Mellifleur stole his power from Bane according to Monster Mythology. I've said it several times... I believe Velsharoon enacted a special ritual using Mellifleur's phylactery to become a lich and god at the same time. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 21:28:49
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| That was also my theory. That Mellifleur has existed for a very long time, ignored by Myrkul, and taken over by Velsharoon with Talos's help. Velsharoon is the most recent "new" deity, he has only been around since 1367 DR |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 02:16:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
That was also my theory. That Mellifleur has existed for a very long time, ignored by Myrkul, and taken over by Velsharoon with Talos's help. Velsharoon is the most recent "new" deity, he has only been around since 1367 DR
The only issue I have with this theory, is that it doesn't exactly address the long-established rumour that Mellifleur/Mellif was once a yugoloth.
Perhaps, when Mellifleur was subsumed by Velsharoon, the future Lord of the Forgotten Crypt [with further help from Talos] twisted the ascension ritual and ensured that this new deity would safely keep the body of himself as that of a former human Red Wizard. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 02:48:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
That was also my theory. That Mellifleur has existed for a very long time, ignored by Myrkul, and taken over by Velsharoon with Talos's help. Velsharoon is the most recent "new" deity, he has only been around since 1367 DR
The only issue I have with this theory, is that it doesn't exactly address the long-established rumour that Mellifleur/Mellif was once a yugoloth.
Perhaps, when Mellifleur was subsumed by Velsharoon, the future Lord of the Forgotten Crypt [with further help from Talos] twisted the ascension ritual and ensured that this new deity would safely keep the body of himself as that of a former human Red Wizard.
I can't recall where I read it...I think it was Greyhawk material...but ol' Mell was tied into Kyuss. I admit that my first thought was that this was fan-fic. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 03:35:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
That was also my theory. That Mellifleur has existed for a very long time, ignored by Myrkul, and taken over by Velsharoon with Talos's help. Velsharoon is the most recent "new" deity, he has only been around since 1367 DR
The only issue I have with this theory, is that it doesn't exactly address the long-established rumour that Mellifleur/Mellif was once a yugoloth.
Perhaps, when Mellifleur was subsumed by Velsharoon, the future Lord of the Forgotten Crypt [with further help from Talos] twisted the ascension ritual and ensured that this new deity would safely keep the body of himself as that of a former human Red Wizard.
I can't recall where I read it...I think it was Greyhawk material...but ol' Mell was tied into Kyuss. I admit that my first thought was that this was fan-fic.
Actually, I thought it was Vecna. Since Vecna is, after all, a lich who became a god, while Mellifleur is the god of liches.
The only connection I remember at the moment, between Mellifleur and Kyuss, is the possibility for conflict since Kyuss might wish to challenge Mellifleur's dominance over liches. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 03:41:28
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| the one I can think of that ISN'T in the realms is (that I know of) is Eachthighern, because Lurue has been asked if she were Eachthighern on several occasions which always led to confusion as there was no such being (forget where I read that... maybe Powers and Pantheons?). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 14:39:18
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
the one I can think of that ISN'T in the realms is (that I know of) is Eachthighern, because Lurue has been asked if she were Eachthighern on several occasions which always led to confusion as there was no such being (forget where I read that... maybe Powers and Pantheons?).
I've read it also, it is indeed in Powers and Pantheons, but the deity of pegasi and unicorns is cited in Elves of Evermeet as the father of Yathaghera (later identified as an alias of the same Lurue), and is also mentioned as an ally of Hanali Celanil and Aerdrie Faenya in Demihuman Deities. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 15:55:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
the one I can think of that ISN'T in the realms is (that I know of) is Eachthighern, because Lurue has been asked if she were Eachthighern on several occasions which always led to confusion as there was no such being (forget where I read that... maybe Powers and Pantheons?).
I've read it also, it is indeed in Powers and Pantheons, but the deity of pegasi and unicorns is cited in Elves of Evermeet as the father of Yathaghera (later identified as an alias of the same Lurue), and is also mentioned as an ally of Hanali Celanil and Aerdrie Faenya in Demihuman Deities.
Ah, interesting. The part that really caught my interest was Yathaghera. So, Yathaghera was bred from Eachthighern and Lurue is noted as being a daughter of Selune. So, it sounds like we've noted Lurue's father and mother..... (as such can be noted in the realms, and assuming that Lurue isn't just absorbing worship in the name of another being). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 17:09:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(...)
So, it sounds like we've noted Lurue's father and mother.....
(...)
The problem is that in the Powers and Pantheons source it says that Lurue doesn't know Eachthighern, and that she "reacts only with puzzlement to mention of his name and claims no relation to him".
EDIT: Just read in Elves of Evermeet that "The pegasi worship Yathaghera's father, Eachthighern, the great flying unicorn." And it even says his avatar can appear to defend the Island if the pegasi and unicorn are seriously threatened. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 08 Nov 2012 17:15:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 17:40:37
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My thoughts on the matter is that "The Lurue" is the primal power of The Weave itself; the very basic intelligence of that which was created during the WoL&D.
In order for mortals to be able to handle magic safely, an 'interpreter' is needed... this is where Mystryl comes in. By 'uploading' a mortal consciousness, it allows mortals a connection to the weave through the racial overmind.
Thus, The Weave is like a computer, and Lurue is like DOS. Only gods (programmers) can script in DOS - it is very difficult to use. Mystryl is the user-friendly GUI; her presence allows 'mere mortals' to tap into the fundamental forces of the universe, without much fearing of 'crashing' (quite literally, "the blue screen of death").
So Lurue and Mystryl are sort-of the same thing, and at the same time, very different. 'The Lurue' is what the Weave is without a mortal consciousness attached to it. That means Lurue is quite different from all deities (who are probably all ascended mortals), and even most primordials. This is why she wouldn't recognize Eachthighern - her own perception of the universe is vastly different then anything else's. Asking her about him would be like asking a caveman about hemoglobin; sure its part of him, but he has no idea what you'd be talking about.
As I said at the beginning, just my own personal thoughts, pieced together from canon bits and stuff Ed has said, but by no means canon itself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2012 17:44:51 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 09:53:45
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Yeah, I know that Ed's rending on Lurue is quite different from published lore... And I took some seconds to get the hemoglobin example, only because it was unexpected to me in a RPG forum (at first I read "hemogoblin" - an emo goblin?) 
Well, about the Evermeet and Powers and Pantheons contradiction, I think this would be the case in which new lore supercedes the old. Even if Eachthighern is mentioned in Demihuman Deities, that is newer than PnP, maybe the Seldarine goddesses consider him an ally even if they know him from other spheres. Well, but I think I could use him in my Realms!  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 06:14:22
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My theory was that Lurue was the aspect of Mystryl venerated by the fey creator race. Or conversely that Mystryl was the aspect of Lurue venerated by humans. At some point one fragmented off from the other and they became separate deities. Possibly when humans became aware enough of Lurue through their contact with the sylvan people's of the High Forest, and Lurue entered the human pantheon of the North.
Eventually, the pantheon of the North merged with the Talfiric pantheon, which in turn merged with other proto-pantheons to form the greater Faerunean pantheon. At some point, once Lurue and Mystryl found themselves in the same pantheon, one of them had to give up the magic portfolio to the other, and Mystryl won out.
That's my theory at least.
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Edited by - Gray Richardson on 12 Nov 2012 06:15:34 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 09:55:55
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Well, maybe Lurue could keep under her portfolio magical creatures and their innate powers...  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 18:19:26
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Well, there is a very basic difference between the two, even if they are two sides of the same coin.
In Ed's version of The Realms, Magic = Life, so the Weave was composed of 'life energy'. That means Lurue represents life itself, in all its glory, while Mystra/Mystryl represents the human ability to manipulate those forces - the very fabric of existence.
Its like the difference between Lightening and our electrical grids. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 19:00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, there is a very basic difference between the two, even if they are two sides of the same coin.
In Ed's version of The Realms, Magic = Life, so the Weave was composed of 'life energy'. That means Lurue represents life itself, in all its glory, while Mystra/Mystryl represents the human ability to manipulate those forces - the very fabric of existence.
Its like the difference between Lightening and our electrical grids.
At its essence, it seems all these magic systems are based on "life". The incarnum system is managing souls. The binders link their souls with other souls. Psionics is harnessing the spiritual energy within yourself. They really need to have some of these that are actually based on something else. Only a few pull from other planes (like shadowcaster's). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 10:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, there is a very basic difference between the two, even if they are two sides of the same coin.
In Ed's version of The Realms, Magic = Life, so the Weave was composed of 'life energy'. That means Lurue represents life itself, in all its glory, while Mystra/Mystryl represents the human ability to manipulate those forces - the very fabric of existence.
Its like the difference between Lightening and our electrical grids.
Love the idea of Lurue representing life. After all, her symbol is a unicorn, and these have long been associated with life... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 12:02:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Why? Life and magic are so intertwined, that it simply makes sense to base it that way. Speaking esoterically, magic is really nothing more than the various forces of nature nudged, manipulated, and/or directed in a certain way to achieve a specific result. Thus, one would literally be tugging on the threads of life.
I could just as easily say.... "fireball... yes, that draws on the energy of the plane of fire". That's what I'm saying, they need to provide some alternative "magic-wielders" that actually draw on these other energies. Shadowcasters are one example. Elementalists could be others. All of these things could be part of the "weave" without it having to be the energy of "life". Or they could be separate from the weave. Depends on how WotC wants to handle it. It just grows old that they keep trying to differentiate all of these supposedly disparate magic systems, but they keep using the same re-wording of the same thing over and over. At least with the binders though, I can say it was a totally different take on using "spirits" of beings to power spells. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 12:09:07
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| About the original question, I've also done some research here in CK and haven't found anything. Have any of you been more successful? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 14:05:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
That was also my theory. That Mellifleur has existed for a very long time, ignored by Myrkul, and taken over by Velsharoon with Talos's help. Velsharoon is the most recent "new" deity, he has only been around since 1367 DR
The only issue I have with this theory, is that it doesn't exactly address the long-established rumour that Mellifleur/Mellif was once a yugoloth.
Perhaps, when Mellifleur was subsumed by Velsharoon, the future Lord of the Forgotten Crypt [with further help from Talos] twisted the ascension ritual and ensured that this new deity would safely keep the body of himself as that of a former human Red Wizard.
Hmmm, I never owned the manual of the planes in 3E, but I see the entry you're talking about. My take on Mellifleur in the realms was that he was a Narfellian. However, Narfellians were intent on making pacts of sorts with demons. While I think devils would be out the window due to the blood war, I wouldn't be surprised to find Daemons (yugoloths) on their list of contacts as well. I also wouldn't find it all that surprising if Mellifleur was maybe following some path similar to the "acolyte of the skin" but with a yugoloth. If that were the case, of all the yugoloths, I'd say a charonadaemon/marraeloth would be the most apt. Perhaps he made a pact with a charonadaemon to share his form (and in return, the Charonadaemon gets to see something besides the river styx). It keeps that "rumor" correct to a degree. It may be that his attempt at lichdom was a means to free him from control by the Yugoloth (as maybe he was actually turning into a Charonadaemon that would become a servant of Charon). Just a thought that popped into my head.
I'd also wondered if there weren't multiple "Mellifleur"'s in another thread. Each one advances to divine rank upon completing their lich ritual, and thus why Mellifleur has multiple phylacteries and why its rumored he stole from multiple gods in multiple worlds. Perhaps the one that stole from Nerull was a yugoloth (maybe even a charonadaemon). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 14:51:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
That was also my theory. That Mellifleur has existed for a very long time, ignored by Myrkul, and taken over by Velsharoon with Talos's help. Velsharoon is the most recent "new" deity, he has only been around since 1367 DR
The only issue I have with this theory, is that it doesn't exactly address the long-established rumour that Mellifleur/Mellif was once a yugoloth.
Perhaps, when Mellifleur was subsumed by Velsharoon, the future Lord of the Forgotten Crypt [with further help from Talos] twisted the ascension ritual and ensured that this new deity would safely keep the body of himself as that of a former human Red Wizard.
Hmmm, I never owned the manual of the planes in 3E, but I see the entry you're talking about. My take on Mellifleur in the realms was that he was a Narfellian. However, Narfellians were intent on making pacts of sorts with demons. While I think devils would be out the window due to the blood war, I wouldn't be surprised to find Daemons (yugoloths) on their list of contacts as well. I also wouldn't find it all that surprising if Mellifleur was maybe following some path similar to the "acolyte of the skin" but with a yugoloth. If that were the case, of all the yugoloths, I'd say a charonadaemon/marraeloth would be the most apt. Perhaps he made a pact with a charonadaemon to share his form (and in return, the Charonadaemon gets to see something besides the river styx). It keeps that "rumor" correct to a degree. It may be that his attempt at lichdom was a means to free him from control by the Yugoloth (as maybe he was actually turning into a Charonadaemon that would become a servant of Charon). Just a thought that popped into my head.
I'd also wondered if there weren't multiple "Mellifleur"'s in another thread. Each one advances to divine rank upon completing their lich ritual, and thus why Mellifleur has multiple phylacteries and why its rumored he stole from multiple gods in multiple worlds. Perhaps the one that stole from Nerull was a yugoloth (maybe even a charonadaemon).
Hmmmm, another thought comes to mind, but its not fully formed. Charon is a powerful "Altraloth" who was formed by the night hags selling larvae in the gray wastes according to the Dragon Annual 1997 (the marraenoloths/charonadaemons wanted a being that would help protect them from the depredations of the gehreleths/demodands). He's known as Charon/Cerlic/the Stygian Boatman/The Ferryman etc....To look at Charon, he looks much like a lich (as do his Marraenoloth/Charonadaemon servants). Larvae are often used by liches in their transformation or for maintaining their undeath. What if CharonCerlic is not just an exceptionally powerful lich/yugoloth lord.... and/or what if he and Mellifleur are somehow entwined (i.e. either the same being or allied). What if the war in the past between Mellifleur and Cegilune over the larvae trade also had something to do with Charon?
Not sure where this could/would be taken, but it could prove interesting. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Monstrous Mythology all Realms deities?
