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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 16:59:01
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I'd like to ask the scribes of these halls to aid in a thought experiment. How would an enterprising thief start a new thieves guild in a medium sized settlement in Faerun?
Lets say we take Sembia, the land of coin, and try to get in on the flow of commerce in the city of Daerlun (check out a map here), south of the Infested Hills.
What are the first courses of action one needs to do to secure a practical beginning for a prosperous thieves guild?
Some facts about Daerlun...
Inhabitants: around 50 000
Imports: parchment wine wool
Exports: textiles (daerlunian linen and worked wools goes for nearly double the normal price)
Distinguished features:
* a 500ft tall netherese wall protects the city
* a large public bathhouse is a center of gossip and daily business
* nearby ports Urmlaspyr, Westgate, Saerloon
* as of around 1370 DR Cult of the Dragon activity
* ruler (probably a puppet for the Cult of the Dragon) the merchant Hallath Tymmyr
* city was built around an ancient temple to Sune: the House of Firehair
* the House of Firehair is a collection of towerlike buildings lain in a beautiful park spread out over the yard and connected by lush and green overhanging walkways that attract a large number of singing birds
* a powerful clergy of Sune runs this site: Thauna Maskalar and at least 48 other human and halfelven clerics
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 24 Oct 2012 17:11:58
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 00:10:39
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I guess it really depends on how you plan to start the guild. Specifically, are you wanting to start a new guild and build from the ground up or take over an existing one? Either way you will need coin, magic, "muscle" and support from local businesses and community leaders. Also, do you want to be a guild known for bloodletting or a more 'honorable' guild (that only sheds blood when it's really necessary)? So the first couple of decisions are:
1. The starting point (brand new or hostile takeover).
2. The 'character' of the guild (despicalbly evil organization or more neutrally aligned, etc).
Then you have to create a game plan based on your starting point. A quote from the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardback:
"Thieves are dealt with harshly in Daerlun...they are imprisoned in solitary deep cells and never heard from again. They are actually sold into slavery..."
So, creating a thieve's guild should be rather difficult. I should think the following activities will be necessary:
1. Blackmail local merchants, politicians, berguns, etc. I would do this by sending in thieves to eavesdrop and find papers/evidence on their activities but not actually take the evidence (to keep from being discovered). Eventually, you should build up enough information to start influencing/affecting their activities.
2. WATCH OUT FOR HARPERS! Although there is no solid evidence that they have a presence in Daerlun...we all know they have to be...and reading up on Daerlun I have to say the city is probably a good base of operations for them (a 'hub' if you get my meaning). If I were a DM the Harpers would be present.
3. Try to use intermediaries where possible. The longer you keep the authorities from discovering a concerted effort to establish a guild here the better.
4. Your main character(s) should try to become upstanding citizens in the community to keep folks from believing any rumors to the contrary. Being seen as a philanthropist who helps the poor and/or as a pious individual who donates to his church will go a long way toward this goal.
5. You need a well hidden and well guarded base of operations in the city. I would start small though and I wouldn't have all your eggs in one basket either. Buy a few warehouses to ship your stolen goods out of the city and use different locations for meetings to start with (anything to keep the authorities off your trail).
6. I would have members of your group actually join the Watch (the better to get information on their activities...including trying to discover the source of the heists that have started plaguing the city...).
Depending on just how far you want to go with this (remain a small outfit or grow to a large guild that dominates the city) this should take a good deal of time to accomplish (decades if your goal is to dominate the city).
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 18:06:11
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Wow, that is a lot of food for thought.
Well, given the stated policy in FR Adventures, it will be a brand new starting thieves guild, but one with the grand ambition of dominating all thievery in the city.
quote:
1. Blackmail local merchants, politicians, berguns, etc. I would do this by sending in thieves to eavesdrop and find papers/evidence on their activities but not actually take the evidence (to keep from being discovered). Eventually, you should build up enough information to start influencing/affecting their activities.
Getting dirt on both the upper echelon of the clergy in the House of Firehair and the merchant guild (and its ties to the Cult of the Dragon) is a mission of high importance, but with high risk for the operatives involved. Eavesdropping is probably best done by infiltrating a household as an aid (disguised as a butler, cook, or housemaid), or overhearing private conversations in the public bathhouse.
I think blackmailing Hallath or Thauna outright is probably too hasty. He might have sorcerous allies amongst the Cult of the Dragon while Thauna is backed by a cadre of well trained clerics, and the last thing a starting guild needs is getting the attention of spellcasters.
But once the thieves guild has a secure position getting either/both Thauna or/and Hallath to condone the guilds existance would be a good way to ensure its future. Depending on the info gathered the guild would have to choose its outlook and become ruthlessly cutthroat if seeking the favors of Tallath and the Cult, or more neutral and compassionate if seeking Thauna's graces.
quote:
2. WATCH OUT FOR HARPERS! Although there is no solid evidence that they have a presence in Daerlun...we all know they have to be...and reading up on Daerlun I have to say the city is probably a good base of operations for them (a 'hub' if you get my meaning). If I were a DM the Harpers would be present.
Agreed. In the early days of the guild discretion is paramount.
quote:
3. Try to use intermediaries where possible. The longer you keep the authorities from discovering a concerted effort to establish a guild here the better.
4. Your main character(s) should try to become upstanding citizens in the community to keep folks from believing any rumors to the contrary. Being seen as a philanthropist who helps the poor and/or as a pious individual who donates to his church will go a long way toward this goal.
I see the guild beginning with probably 5 'upright men' or chief thieves, commanding over 5 footpads each who develope roles as they learn to adapt. I can see a whole lot of coin being made as bubbers (tavern thieves), glaziers (break 'n enterers), sneaks (pick pockets) and cats (catburglars).
quote:
5. You need a well hidden and well guarded base of operations in the city. I would start small though and I wouldn't have all your eggs in one basket either. Buy a few warehouses to ship your stolen goods out of the city and use different locations for meetings to start with (anything to keep the authorities off your trail).
There are bound to be at least half a dozen empty warehouses or atticks to start out from. The 500 ft high walls around Daerlun might house some long forgotten armories or stockpile rooms, and the several good views of the city from up high might help a thieves guild asses new businesses to target. Its not easy to abandon though.
A pair of warehouses not far from at least two of the three gates would be preferred. Rigging several others would be easier when the coin gives the guild enough assets to actualy start buying houses legitimately. quote:
6. I would have members of your group actually join the Watch (the better to get information on their activities...including trying to discover the source of the heists that have started plaguing the city...).
Excellent idea. But the one sent to infiltrate needs to be trustworthy and on a tight leash. If he cackles and tells the guard any names the whole guild is in jeopardy. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Crai
Acolyte
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 16:55:47
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There are a ton of external ways to help your guild prosper and network.
But internally, a guild can, at very little effort or cost, grow into an exponentially very powerful "divine thieves guild" ... by combining the thieves guild with a church that is thieves guild-friendly. Say, by enjoining with the Church of Mask. It's much safer, consistent and reliable of way maintaining power projection (because external factors are more unreliable). Mask clergy and guild thieves will be much more apt to provide each other loyalty. And they have synergetic skillsets and overlapping responsibilities. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 23:41:39
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That could work Crai, but the city doesnt have an official 'thieves friendly' church unless Bladewind chooses to add it himself. Perhaps the group can all worship and establish the presence of Mask themselves. Given the city's hard-line approach to thieving such a church would have to be hidden. The Cult almost certainly has a few rogues in its employ but I think they would be of low level and more of an enforcement arm of the cult (sneak in and take care of a problem citizen as opposed to burglarizing the property or used as hidden guards during clandestine meetings).
Another thought occurred to me. Because the authorities actively (and successfully) combat thieves, any designs on establishing a strong guild would need strong financial backing from the beginning (instead of 'earning' said income by stealing). Im thinking the watch makes use of temple divination and other means to ferret out thieves. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 00:06:18
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| What is this about a 500 foot wall? What year did you say you were playing in? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 00:31:27
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Is this wall added in the years after the spellplague then? A Wikipage tells me Daerluns curtain wall was build by the Netherese... is that the Shade enclave then? I think thats the old Netherese they mean though.
That gives me an idea. Perhaps the might of the Sunite clergy can be broken with the Shadovars aid. Around 1375 they allready have recently taken over Saerloon and effectively made the clergy there look like fools... |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 00:53:42
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As far as I knew, the wall was not there the last time I read any material on the city...until the coming of the 4e Forgotten Realms.
The Shades are as often called the Netherese in that work...perhaps to show a difference between the Netherese Shades and "regular" shades such as existed in the Forgotten Realms prior to the return of Shade Enclave. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 16:23:57
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As Dalor points out, you have a mix of time frames in your background info.
Halath Tymmyr is the High Bergun of Daerlun in 1367, and he's already elderly. Likewise, Thauna Maskalar is from FR Adventures and therefore pre-Spellplague. Both of these individuals would 99% likely have been destroyed by the Spellplague, and almost certainly would have died of old age (if nothing else) before 1479. Also, your map appears to be from the Interactive Atlas, which is also a 2e time frame. The Netherese wall didn't exist (as far as I know) before 4e. It was definitely not the old Netherese, because Daerlun (and the rest of Sembia) didn't exist at Netheril's fall.
There's plenty of good stuff in The Arcanamach's suggestions and my Realms (and my reading) stopped with 3.5e, so I have no suggestions for setting your effort in 4e anyway. Except that if you're working in 4e then you have a whole new crew of NPCs and that different brew of personalities and priorities could completely alter the feel of the city. There's every reason to believe that the Spellplague and the arrival of the Netherese and simply the passage of time (and the physical/magical chaos which should be assumed to have taken place) may have altered the landscape as well. Which all points toward you having a lot of latitude to reimagine the challenges which will face your budding guild.
Have fun! (always priority #1 imo) |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 01 Nov 2012 16:24:45 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 17:01:11
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quote:
But internally, a guild can, at very little effort or cost, grow into an exponentially powerful "divine thieves guild" ... by combining the thieves guild with a church that is thieves guild-friendly. Say, by enjoining with the Church of Mask. It's much safer, consistent and reliable of way maintaining power projection (because external factors are more unreliable). Mask clergy and guild thieves will be much more apt to provide each other loyalty. And they have synergetic skillsets and overlapping responsibilities.
Interesting suggestion. With the starting size of 5 chiefthieves with 5 footpads each (totaling 30 members) I think having a single 'upright man' and 5 novices being part of the church of Mask is probable.
Given the fledgling nature of the guild the church of Mask is unlikely to send heavy hitters to aid. But I think a local operative of at most level 5 would still be a welcome addition to a starting thieves guild. He can find his five neonates amongst the Daerlunian insightful youths or grizzled sneaks.
quote:
Another thought occurred to me. Because the authorities actively (and successfully) combat thieves, any designs on establishing a strong guild would need strong financial backing from the beginning (instead of 'earning' said income by stealing). Im thinking the watch makes use of temple divination and other means to ferret out thieves.
Setting up shop as a regular sembian merchant, brothel or tavern could provide a well earning fence against authorities, and provides acces to their guilds and the information they are privvy to.
The followers of Mask could be enchanting active footpads with wards vs divinations. Nondetection is a 3rd level spell for clerics of Mask, so the guild needs a chiefthief of Mask of at least 5th level to start to hamper scrying attempts. When this is available, footpads can aim for more blatant crimes and expect to walk away with more chance of succes, and it helps secure the outfits and the meetings held there. serious heists |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 17:14:57
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I'm aiming to be 'edition neutral', it seems all the rage nowadays! 
A good time to achieve such would be detailing the Daerlun thieves guild a few years before the spellplague hit (about 1378-1380), as all the elements of the editions can concievably be present in the form discussed in my first post. The 500ft wall is likely build by magic and therefore could have been placed in quite a hurry.
I could even run with this, and use the presence of the Shade engineers during their building of this immense wall as an opportunity for the thieves guilds infiltration efforts. Perhaps a design of the building plans of the walls can end up in the hands of the guild. If they have the knowhow and the stealth, they can change a few designs of the rooms here and there (adding additional secret corridors and doors) they can have their thieves den designed for them for free! |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Yospeck
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2012 : 15:35:50
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Not being shut down by the competition might be one of the hardest things for a new thieves guild, trying to food from the mouths of other thieves guilds, or coins out of pockets that THEY were going to take is a recipe for a fight. An interesting way around it might be to try and make the group indispensable in some form where there are other groups who want to see them succeed:
- Establishing a third party "fence" for your stolen goods who might want to help you in other ways if you are exclusive to him, or at least bring your items to him first. If there are no traders open to the idea then trying to get some incriminating evidence on them and forcing them to fence your items should you reveal it would be an option, then when the money flows in the fence may actually see it as an opportunity.
- Be a typical Robin Hood and give money to the church and the poor so that they will in turn help you hide, give information, expand your network. Supporting the orphanage and using the kids to be future pickpockets is a devious route and a long game plan (as you said, he has high ambitions).
- Do enough good for the right people, and they may turn a blind eye to your minor discretion much more easily. Greasing palms and filling a few coffers can keep the heat off your own group. Consider if the Watch is vigilant about closing down the Thieves Guild in your town but not getting a handle on it, then a more "organized" syndicate where a higher up may have some input might help your get established and get your rivals shut down. In Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, the Patrician helped establish the Thieves Guild to make them follow rules and legally allow them to rob people (though you can pay a tax to ensure you dont get robbed) as the alternative was dangerous muggings in back alleys. Whilst the Discworld novels are very humorous in nature, something similar and more realistic could potentially be achieved. Knowing the right people always helps.
Overall I think it's looking after people initially and making more friends than enemies, especially if playing the long game. It pays to pay people a little bit more and take a little bit less so that they'll never think about turning you in and losing their easy payday. How these things change down the line when you can rule with fear is a different thing altogether :) |
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Starting a new thieves guild: Daerlun
