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Originally posted by Razz

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Razz

I would've likened to having them in the Realms were it not for the fact that there's been a precedent of them already and with a totally different origin. Doubled with the fact that the Dragonborn were really a 4E Core creation and shoved into the Realms (and Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.) in order to "unify" everything (yet they had a problem with unifying the multiverse via the Great Wheel?) that I have been turned off by having them in the Realms entirely. I'd rather more types of saurials enter the Realms than 4E Dragonborn.

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What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn?

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It's extremely redundant. We don't need 2 types of Dragonborn in the Realms. Plus they both have the same name. One is, however, all physically resembling Bahamut and the other look like smaller, wingless Dragonkin. One of them needs a name change if you want to keep them both.

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Originally posted by Thauranil

Personally I like the concept of the Dragonborn and their warrior society was also quite interesting. But we don't really get to see much of them except as supporting characters in a few books, the only exception is the Brotherhood of the Griffin series.. So I think its unfortunate they are being disposed off before even being given a fair chance.

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Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

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Originally posted by Thauranil

Personally I like the concept of the Dragonborn and their warrior society was also quite interesting. But we don't really get to see much of them except as supporting characters in a few books, the only exception is the Brotherhood of the Griffin series.. So I think its unfortunate they are being disposed off before even being given a fair chance.

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The chances to use them still exist - it's just that no 'Realms' stories would take place in Laerakond or Tymanther, as they aren't going to be in the Realms any longer. I don't see anything keeping an enterprising author from utilizing them in a prominent fashion, though - if it fits the story they have in mind, they'll use them.

- OMH

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Originally posted by Thauranil
I hope so , still we will never likely get a story from a dragonborns perspective now which is unfortunate.

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Razz

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Razz

I would've likened to having them in the Realms were it not for the fact that there's been a precedent of them already and with a totally different origin. Doubled with the fact that the Dragonborn were really a 4E Core creation and shoved into the Realms (and Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.) in order to "unify" everything (yet they had a problem with unifying the multiverse via the Great Wheel?) that I have been turned off by having them in the Realms entirely. I'd rather more types of saurials enter the Realms than 4E Dragonborn.

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What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn?

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It's extremely redundant. We don't need 2 types of Dragonborn in the Realms. Plus they both have the same name. One is, however, all physically resembling Bahamut and the other look like smaller, wingless Dragonkin. One of them needs a name change if you want to keep them both.

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While I can understand the concern for redundancy, I'm a little confused as to why it would be necessary... given that, for another example, most non-elves tend to view all the elven sub-races as, merely, "elves." Rarely do we actually see other races concerning themselves with the particular racial identity of a specific elven sub-race -- unless derogatory terms are being exchanged. Only close friends and/or inter-racial families members tend to make that differentiation. Otherwise, they're all "just elves."

Why should the various dragonborn races be subjected to such a differing identification paradigm?

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Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

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Originally posted by Thauranil
I hope so , still we will never likely get a story from a dragonborns perspective now which is unfortunate.

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Actually, depending on the author (and how well they 'get' dragonborn as presented in 4th Edition), they could very likely start out their tale in pre-Sundering Tymanther, give the reader JUST enough insight into the land and its people to generate interest, then put the Sundering smackdown on the whole thing. The next chapters (next book, whatever) take place afterwards, as the hero struggles to deal with the fact that while he was away fighting near Velen or Hillsfar or wherever, he is suddenly deprived of the homeland he grew up in.

The remainder of the tales speak of his way being made in a Realms that no longer includes his homeland. He is akin to young Spock in the JJ Abrams Star Trek remake in that regard. I would imagine that a story like that would go over rather well, enough to generate more than one book. As much as I dislike dragonborn, I would buy a tale like that (one that was printed, mind you).

- OMH

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Originally posted by Markustay

I don't use Dragonborn, I use Khaasta, which have a better back-story IMHO.

I think FR now has more types of Draconians then DL does.

@Razz - While what you say is true, and I agree with it, it doesn't mean that one could not have been based on the other. For instance, if some strange race (on some obscure world) started venerating the Fey pantheon, and needed to change (for whatever reason), I don't think the Fey (or Seldarine) gods would reinvent the wheel - they'd turn them all into Fey/Elves.

So Bahamut - being a multispheric deity - may have had some access to, or vision of, what was happening on Abeir, and used those creatures as a basis for his. For all we know, there easily could be some sort of universal template for 'Dragonman'.

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Originally posted by Razz

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Razz

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Razz

I would've likened to having them in the Realms were it not for the fact that there's been a precedent of them already and with a totally different origin. Doubled with the fact that the Dragonborn were really a 4E Core creation and shoved into the Realms (and Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.) in order to "unify" everything (yet they had a problem with unifying the multiverse via the Great Wheel?) that I have been turned off by having them in the Realms entirely. I'd rather more types of saurials enter the Realms than 4E Dragonborn.

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What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn?

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It's extremely redundant. We don't need 2 types of Dragonborn in the Realms. Plus they both have the same name. One is, however, all physically resembling Bahamut and the other look like smaller, wingless Dragonkin. One of them needs a name change if you want to keep them both.

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While I can understand the concern for redundancy, I'm a little confused as to why it would be necessary... given that, for another example, most non-elves tend to view all the elven sub-races as, merely, "elves." Rarely do we actually see other races concerning themselves with the particular racial identity of a specific elven sub-race -- unless derogatory terms are being exchanged. Only close friends and/or inter-racial families members tend to make that differentiation. Otherwise, they're all "just elves."

Why should the various dragonborn races be subjected to such a differing identification paradigm?

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Anyone that plays the Realms worth their salt would be aware of elven, dwarven, even halfling subraces. Thing is they all have the same origin; a primary racial stock and then variants created through geographical, cultural, and (sometimes, such as aquatic, drow, and snow elves) magical diversity.

The Dragonborn of Bahamut and the Dragonborn of Abeir are not the same being at all and have completely different origins.

The Dragonborn of Abeir are a true race, a true breed with a history with the dragons of Abeir, with their own unique culture.

The Dragonborn of Bahamut were never truly dragons to begin with; they are (were) formerly humanoids that performed a sacred Bahamut ritual of rebirth, transformed entirely into not true dragons, but dragonblooded humanoids with the appearance of the Platinum Dragon himself. Mixed in with a few features of their original form, of course. They do not have a unique culture, in fact, their culture is that of their original race with just the addition of a new life-altering decision to serve Bahamut's aims.

Because of the vast differences between the two, it should be a priority to avoid any, and all, confusion of the two at all. They simply are not one and the same as it is with the demihuman subraces.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I understand that the 2 types of "dragonborn" have a different origin, but the "mechanics" of their construction are similar enough that they'll end up lumped together. They are truly different from other "draco-humanoid" races such as the various half-dragons, dragonkin, and the draconians of DL, but the two types of "dragonborn" would be close enough that a few centuries down the road when they've forgotten who their grandmother and grandfather are that they'd be very similar.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I understand that the 2 types of "dragonborn" have a different origin, but the "mechanics" of their construction are similar enough that they'll end up lumped together. They are truly different from other "draco-humanoid" races such as the various half-dragons, dragonkin, and the draconians of DL, but the two types of "dragonborn" would be close enough that a few centuries down the road when they've forgotten who their grandmother and grandfather are that they'd be very similar.

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Except that the dragonborn of Bahamut aren't a true race -- new dragonborn of Bahamut aren't born; embracing that form is a deliberate decision made by an adult of another race. They don't reproduce, they undergo metamorphosis.

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I understand that the 2 types of "dragonborn" have a different origin, but the "mechanics" of their construction are similar enough that they'll end up lumped together. They are truly different from other "draco-humanoid" races such as the various half-dragons, dragonkin, and the draconians of DL, but the two types of "dragonborn" would be close enough that a few centuries down the road when they've forgotten who their grandmother and grandfather are that they'd be very similar.

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Except that the dragonborn of Bahamut aren't a true race -- new dragonborn of Bahamut aren't born; embracing that form is a deliberate decision made by an adult of another race. They don't reproduce, they undergo metamorphosis.

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I don't think we have any evidence that, once metamorphosis occurs, they no longer have any reproductive organs. If they DO, then it's quite possible that they could reproduce and even with other humanoid species. Further I'd like to think that Bahamut, in his infinte God-like Wisdom, would probably have made Dragonborn of 3E appear as "true" Dragonborn such as the ones on Abeir in appearence and description.

Basically we don't have a lot of information to go on from a Realms perspective and really, not from a game supplment perspective either. Which tells me that with a few good ideas they could be merged or made similiar in story and mechanics to rationalize multiple sub-races within that race.

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Originally posted by Razz

But they don't look like Abeir's Dragonborn. They all bare resemblance to Bahamut himself with the framework of their original race.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction

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Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction

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Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.

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Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.

But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction

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Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.

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Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.

But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction

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Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.

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Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.

But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated.

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Just wondering, does it give a lifespan? If so, by the time of the 4e realms, maybe they're all dead.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction

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Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.

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Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.

But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated.

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Oh, and if this is true.... man Bahamut is a prick.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction

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Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.

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Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.

But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated.

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Oh, and if this is true.... man Bahamut is a prick.

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Well, it kinda makes sense -- if you become a dragonborn, you're basically giving up everything you were before, in order to work against Tiamat and her spawn. And this requires a serious dedication -- more dedicated than some knightly orders or priesthoods. And like these orders or religious groups, affection for someone else detracts from your mission.

On top of that, rendering his dragonborn sterile serves another function. Since dragonborn leave their original races behind, any reproduction (if it was possible) would make the new race, not the old one. But Bahamut wants people to serve willingly, and to have a choice -- being born as one of his dragonborn would mean that the choice was made for you. Making that no possible neatly solves the issue.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I understand the reasoning behind it... he wants loyal servitors who are singlemindedly focused on what he wants. He could have made it such that any child born would be of the original genetic material (i.e. the reproductive organs don't change what they do). Instead he sterilized them. I stand by my viewpoint.... he's a prick, and I wouldn't worship him.... not when I could say worship Torm or Tyr and still make a family. But, then he's a god of dragons... not humans.

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Razz

But they don't look like Abeir's Dragonborn. They all bare resemblance to Bahamut himself with the framework of their original race.

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Dragonborn of Bahamut (3E Races of the Dragon supplement)

And another article on v3.5 Dragonborn

For comparison:
4E Dragonborn

And Here

To me, there's very little difference from the two in their apperance. Abilities, sure but that's more of a rules change rather than the change in the continunity.

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