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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36964 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I did read the 4e campaign guide and players guide to the realms, but it did not feel like the realms
That I can respect. Giving the same fair chance to 5E and the NextRealms is what I'm advocating. If nothing else, at least check it out to see if our dedicated loresmiths -- which includes Ed -- can return that feeling to the setting. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:15:14
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When I look back at the 4e FRCG, I realize a lot had to do with the 'unfinished' feel of it. I understand that they've said they were shooting for a very... ummmmm... 'undefined' presentation, in order to alleviate the 'feelings of entitlement' of older fans, and the off-putting monumental amount of past material. Personally, I think thats just an excuse for not wanting to put much effort into it, but whatever. If they were going for 'ill-defined', they overshot that mark by quite a bit. We either got differing information about certain things, or no information at all.
So with that in-mind, I realized that if we gave those same exact concepts (and goals) to Ed Greenwood, Erik Boyb, Steven Schend, etc... we would have gotten something very different, and something we probably would have all liked... even though the same lore-kernals were presented. Presentation is everything, and 4e failed on so many levels - poorly advertised roll-out, horrendous map, dry source material....
So if the same stuff could have been taken and re-worked into something good to begin with, that means its not too late for them to still do that. Don't blame the lore, blame how it was written. I could pick a dirty hotdog up off the floor and try to get you to eat it, or I can take a fresh one out of a package, smash it flat with a hammer and grill it, pour BBQ sauce over it and add some onions and call it a 'McRib', and then market it as 'for a limited time only'.
One you will turn your back on, and the other you will rush out to buy. In the end, its same damn hotdog. We need Ed (and others) to turn it into a McRib.
Aboleths are not really a deal-breaker... at least not for me, anymore. They have always been there, canonically; they were just never very important. That whole bit felt very forced (someone trying to turn the published Realms into their home game). I think if they just toned that down (perhaps even ignoring it completely moving forward) it would be just fine. I've actually used aberrations (my own versions of all of them) in my HB setting, but my setting isn't FR, and the flavor is completely different. What works in one setting doesn't necessarily work in another. We need to be given choices, not have certain elements rammed down our throats.
I still remember being in the Secrets of the Realms panel, sitting with my fellow scribes, and more or less hearing, "you know that Cormyr article in Dragon about 4e Cormyr? Wasn't that great? Yeah, we don't want to do articles like that, and that isn't what we are looking for, but, hey, it was great, wasn't it?"
In all fairness, you could also take that as a positive too. In that Wizards might be considering new and better ways to provide significant portions of lore in their DRAGON article submissions.
On the other hand, we have to feel for Wizards as well, in regard to the fact that not all DRAGON subscribers are looking for articles like the exampled 4e series on Cormyr. So, again, we have to appreciate that as a gaming company, Wizards really need to balance their content so that it attracts the attention of the [traditional] focuses of those among the community of consumers who wish for either just the lore, or those who mainly seek out the rules.
So when they said "we don't want to do articles like that," maybe it's an indication that they still haven't got that balance quite right yet. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 06:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When I look back at the 4e FRCG, I realize a lot had to do with the 'unfinished' feel of it. I understand that they've said they were shooting for a very... ummmmm... 'undefined' presentation, in order to alleviate the 'feelings of entitlement' of older fans, and the off-putting monumental amount of past material. Personally, I think thats just an excuse for not wanting to put much effort into it, but whatever. If they were going for 'ill-defined', they overshot that mark by quite a bit. We either got differing information about certain things, or no information at all.
So with that in-mind, I realized that if we gave those same exact concepts (and goals) to Ed Greenwood, Erik Boyb, Steven Schend, etc... we would have gotten something very different, and something we probably would have all liked... even though the same lore-kernals were presented. Presentation is everything, and 4e failed on so many levels - poorly advertised roll-out, horrendous map, dry source material....
So if the same stuff could have been taken and re-worked into something good to begin with, that means its not too late for them to still do that. Don't blame the lore, blame how it was written. I could pick a dirty hotdog up off the floor and try to get you to eat it, or I can take a fresh one out of a package, smash it flat with a hammer and grill it, pour BBQ sauce over it and add some onions and call it a 'McRib', and then market it as 'for a limited time only'.
One you will turn your back on, and the other you will rush out to buy. In the end, its same damn hotdog. We need Ed (and others) to turn it into a McRib.
Aboleths are not really a deal-breaker... at least not for me, anymore. They have always been there, canonically; they were just never very important. That whole bit felt very forced (someone trying to turn the published Realms into their home game). I think if they just toned that down (perhaps even ignoring it completely moving forward) it would be just fine. I've actually used aberrations (my own versions of all of them) in my HB setting, but my setting isn't FR, and the flavor is completely different. What works in one setting doesn't necessarily work in another. We need to be given choices, not have certain elements rammed down our throats.
I still remember being in the Secrets of the Realms panel, sitting with my fellow scribes, and more or less hearing, "you know that Cormyr article in Dragon about 4e Cormyr? Wasn't that great? Yeah, we don't want to do articles like that, and that isn't what we are looking for, but, hey, it was great, wasn't it?"
In all fairness, you could also take that as a positive too. In that Wizards might be considering new and better ways to provide significant portions of lore in their DRAGON article submissions.
On the other hand, we have to feel for Wizards as well, in regard to the fact that not all DRAGON subscribers are looking for articles like the exampled 4e series on Cormyr. So, again, we have to appreciate that as a gaming company, Wizards really need to balance their content so that it attracts the attention of the [traditional] focuses of those among the community of consumers who wish for either just the lore, or those who mainly seek out the rules.
So when they said "we don't want to do articles like that," maybe it's an indication that they still haven't got that balance quite right yet.
Well, that's pretty much ancient history at this point, since that was "way back" in 2008.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 17:46:26
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I was going to say I didn't remember anything like that at Gencon. I'm glad you clarified that. They seem to have the exact opposite opinion on "articles like that" now.
I think ideally, the best way to move forward is to make everything modular, including the articles. Give me something enjoyable to read, in a story-like format, and then put all the crunchy bits at the end. I think the newer ones are written precisely that way (giving us some indication of what to expect down the line). There are a LOT of FR fans who don't game, and don't need that stuff mixed-in. Keep it separate, and its all good.
Also - if it means getting MORE pages of lore - keep the 'accessories' for sourcebooks online, like indexes, glossaries, pronunciation guides, maybe higher-res maps, 'encounter tables', etc. I suggested this at Gencon, and then was immediately shot-down by another attendee - I think she didn't realize she couldn't have both. If a book is 300 pages, and they need 20 pages for something like I mentioned above, they will cut lore from the book to give us that extraneous material. I would rather keep the books 100% fluff and have the other things online, then have those rarely-used resources in the books and 'additional lore' online.
On the other hand, if those 'extra bits' (cutting-room floor) were padded-out to become articles on their own, that would also be fine. I think moving into the future, no book should ever be considered 'done'. With the internet (and everything else) there is so much room for expandability of everything. We don't need errata anymore - thats so 1975! What we need is 'updates' to our pdf manuals and sources.
MAPS:
They no longer need to provide large pull-out maps in sources. I know that sounds weird coming from me (who cherishes maps like they were his children), but the truth is they up costs that could be spent on other things. They need to make profit on these books, and the fanbase is dwindling. I would suggest page-sized maps within books (where necessary), and then large-size (High Resolution!) maps online that can be downloaded and printed out. There are several ways to printout such maps locally, and if you factor-in customizability (which they were talking abut at Gencon) then folks can print what they want, with what they want on it, which is far more useful and cost-efficient for everyone. A FRCG may be the only exception I can see (Setting guides should have one of those maps - it generates interest), but I also see a more regional approach to the setting in 5e, so that might be a non-issue.
And a clickable map on their website, dammit, with brief descriptions of each place, and list of ALL resources for that locale. The "what is this thing on the map?" questions are one of the most numerous we get around here, along with, "where can I find more info on...?" A clickable indexed map alleviates a LOT of needless hair-pulling when folks are trying to research things.
Not precisely on-topic, but its more along the lines of 'what we need to see so that we don't hate it". Embrace the technology and know your target audience. Cartoons of gnomes that would appeal to small children are useless when trying to sell 300 page rulebooks. Cute, but useless. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2012 17:54:08 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 03:01:17
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That sounds like a great idea. I love the idea of customizable HD digital maps. It saves them the printing costs. It gives me options for maps, and saves me the trouble of scanning them if I want to edit the map in an image editor.
Maybe we can even see a remake of the CC2 maps but newer and nicer and Prettier. Maybe in the 3e maps style - those were nice.
Additionally, regional setting books sound like a great idea. They get more sales, and I get more detailed bookd. Big regional books, like Menzoberranzan, Waterdeep, Shining South, Cormyr, etc. I would like to see a 64 page Forgotten Realms Gazeteer later though.
I'm starting to have high hopes for 5e Realms; but they are in a dangerous position, since there are alot of ways they could screw it up and lose alot of customers.
I'll definitely want to see a Myth Drannor book for example, but if it says Eladrin at all when referring to Sun and Moon Elves instead of celestials, I won't want it.
But they're clearing things with Ed Greenwood, so I'm both hopeful and nervous about it. Hope it goes well. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 12:04:45
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Well, I think it is obvious, that they will need a release schedule with initial fast release of many regional sourcebooks if they want to convince old 1e,2e,3r realms fans to use the 5e FR since it would otherwise be more interesting for many old fans to stick to the old realms were there are good sourcebook coverage and were they have already invested lots of time of money
why discard that investment for an inferior product (less sourcebook coverage) were you have to accept the destruction of many beloved parts of the realms |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 16:33:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Truth be told, the only reason why I am supporting the post 1385 DR Realms is because I think its the only way we will ever see any FR lore any more. I am hoping we will be getting FAR MORE pre-plague material then post-plague.
If not, and 'support for all eras' is just a royal stroking, then I am out of here. I'd be gone already but I have a LOT of faith in Ed, and I think FR has a chance to turn around. We will see.
This is my feeling as well. I am putting faith in the creators this time that they will not make a mockery of the realms like the new edition transition. Granted those responsible are not longer writing for the realms and the newer creators have salvaged a bit of it.
The Gencon talk of righting the realms really has my enthusiasm up, that they will fix alot of what was broken. Even so if they keep putting out books like Elminster's Forgotten Realms where I can forget the Dragonborn and spellplague ever existed, all the better.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 17:36:15
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| I am glad they are not doing a retcon and erasing the Spellplague from canon, because you have to wonder how far back they would go? Would they just go back to 1385 and start over? If they did a retcon like this, it would be a major insult to those who wrote in 4e (and there were some good books that came out of it). But at the same time, well...anyway, moving on |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 20:15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I dont understand how people can hate the 5e realms before its even come out. I mean nostalgia is all well and good but to say that only the novels and material from 1 and 2 e ere any good shows a very closed mind. Some of the best novels of FR have been set in 3 and 4 e , helmed by bold new authors such as Paul S Kemp. At least give them a try before arbitrarily writing it all off because of some marco events that individual authors have no control over.
Indeed! Especially since it will save the realms from the 4e realms. There is simply no way they can make anything worse.
By not supporting the 5e realms you show WOTC that switching back was a bad marketing idea. The 5e realms is creator driven, not 'everything is core' driven. People that did not like the realms of 4e should all be onboard with this. It is the compromise that must be made. I would have preferred a reboot, but that will not happen. So the compromise of 4e adding to the story had to be made.
The way they are going about it I think is clever. I am looking forward to the sundering, and getting the old map of Toril back. If they do not deliver on that promise, and there is too much Abeir left, I will happily buy their PDF old edition products and run it with Pathfinder. Judgement needs to be held until it is released.
If the product turns out to be bad, I will not support the WOTC official realms after that point. At this point I am trusting in the creators.
With that said, in putting faith in the creators I have embarked upon reading the 4e era books. I did not read any 4e era books until I heard they were fixing the realms. Now I am reading them, so that the SUNDERING series will resonate better. I would never have read about a 4e Tiefling, if not for the Sundering. So in fixing the realms, or at least promising too, they got an old customer to begin buying product from them again.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 19 Oct 2012 20:31:11 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 20:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
[quote]Originally posted by Diffan
[quote]Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
From what I can tell, Ed is held in respect by the creative team and they let him/ask him to write a lot of lore for the realms and incorporate it into the setting. That being said, Ed's a freelancer. He doesn't work for Wizards, he isn't on their payroll, and he has no creative control over the setting.
My point is that whether Ed would or wouldn't ok something is irrelevant, again with no disrespect intended towards him. It isn't his setting anymore. He sold the rights to it and Wizards will do with it what they will.
That is correct Ed does not have any LEGAL say. The result of what happened when he was not consulted was near disastrous for the realms. If WOTC wants to do that it is fine. But the fans will vote with their wallets. If they change the flavor of the realms again as they did in 2008, the goodwill will more than likely be gone.
They needed Ed on board with this because of the amount of fans that hemmoraged away from the realms due to the oversimplification of 2008.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 20:35:20
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For me, it depends on how much of the mechanics of D&D:Next bleeds into the supplments. On the off-chance that I despise D&D:Next rules, the less integration there is between the supplements and the actual rules the better one can easily dismiss them. For example, the FRCG (4E) 1st chapter dealt with Loudwater, but I could've easily dismissed the encounters and adventure that was written for it. Not that it was bad, but it took away from information that would've been better detailing the Realms a bit more. That and the whole font of 4E was a bit too big.
If they keep the faunt down and leave out a good bit of mechanics from the book, just focusing on the Realms, then I can be happy and still buy the stuff while adhering to my 4E ruleset. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
Edited by - Diffan on 19 Oct 2012 20:35:51 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 11:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
That and the whole font of 4E was a bit too big.
If they keep the faunt down and leave out a good bit of mechanics from the book, just focusing on the Realms, then I can be happy and still buy the stuff while adhering to my 4E ruleset.
I'm no 4e fan (they had one or two solid ideas, but not enough that I enjoyed it when I played it), but one of the things that drove me crazy as well as being unimpressed with the ruleset, and hating the Spellplagues Realms, was the production values of the past 4 years.
Tiny page counts for the price tag.
Outrageous quantities of whitespace.
Far oversized font.
Looking at Menzoberranzan, for example.
A 127 page book should not be a hardcover. On top of that, the space between paragraphs and around headers is huge, and the font size is like size 14 or 16 or something (In my opinion it should be no larger than 8-10). I also miss Left-Justify. It made the paragraphs look so much nicer.
I would complain about the sparsity of the artwork, but there was already not enough text. More art would have taken away from what little text was there.
The content is quite good, and the subject matter is something I've been wanting since like 2004. But I can't help feeling that I was charged hardcover prices for what should have been an 80 page softcover, for like $20. If I hadn't been waiting on a book geared at running an urban drow intrigue game for like 8 years, I might have looked it over and said "I'm interested, but not for that price. I'll add it to my 'pick it up used for cheap' list."
From what I've seen/read/played of 4e, that sort of horrible layout and tiny wordcount for price is rampant at WotC these days.
I really hope that for the 5e books they start giving more content for the price. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 20 Oct 2012 12:08:10 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 16:18:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I disagree. In fact, I strongly disagree.
No disrespect to Ed, he's a genius and I hold him in high respect, as well as considerable gratitude for creating this wonderful world that we all enjoy, but he made a conscious and willing decision to sell the publication rights and creative control of the Forgotten Realms setting. No one put a gun to his head and forced him to sign it over, he made his choice and now he and all of us have to live with it.
The fact is that the Forgotten Realms aren't Ed Greenwood's setting anymore. It's owned by Wizards of the Coast and saying that they should wait for Ed's approval to do anything is unreasonable.
I think the message conveyed is that the Realms doesn't need yet another RSE to "fix" things. The Realms just doesn't need anymore RSE's period, and where Firestorm says "Unless Ed says so" I think/Feel/Believe he's coming from a point that Ed wouldn't OK one to begin with (were it still his). I also certainly don't think Authors need restrictions to write in a set time of the Realms. I'd hope that Erik Scott de Bie would continue to write in the Post-Spellplague Realms and the adventures of Shadowbane, that Drizzt would continue on with his new adventuring buddies, that storylines lost in the transition to 4E get told.
Ed still has lots of leadership from what I see and I'm fairly certain that he helps steer this ship as best he can manage, along with a bunch of other enthusiastic authors and developers. Should Ed have a "final say" that cannot be vetoed when it comes to the Realms? Probably not, but I have a hard time thinking that this would come to pass this time around.
Yes that is generally where I was going with my comment.
I do disagree with whoever said Ed has no control over the setting and is a mere freelancer. It is pretty much a given that if Ed replies with a response to a question that his response is considered canon for the realms by all authors and by WOTC. They may not need his permission to do what they want with DnD editions, but obviously they consider him the first among equals when it comes to lore in FR.
And since he is being put in charge again for 5e changes, I expect things will get better.
I do hope they start allowing authors to write in any time they want again, more or less because there are several books I want to see and that was my pet peeve for the changes they made. That was a bad decision, as was releasing some in only E-Book form. Yes I have written them and complained about it |
Edited by - Firestorm on 21 Oct 2012 16:22:39 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 01:55:49
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I have not yet managed to convince myself to buy the 4e Menzo book. Well, I thought, I already have so much drow stuff from older editions, and i do not really need a book to hear about the demonweave and any 4e mechanics and 4e lore am I not going to use. I guess, i will wait buying it until i can pick it up at a discount in the secondhand market
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
Looking at Menzoberranzan, for example.
A 127 page book should not be a hardcover. On top of that, the space between paragraphs and around headers is huge, and the font size is like size 14 or 16 or something (In my opinion it should be no larger than 8-10). I also miss Left-Justify. It made the paragraphs look so much nicer.
I would complain about the sparsity of the artwork, but there was already not enough text. More art would have taken away from what little text was there.
The content is quite good, and the subject matter is something I've been wanting since like 2004. But I can't help feeling that I was charged hardcover prices for what should have been an 80 page softcover, for like $20. If I hadn't been waiting on a book geared at running an urban drow intrigue game for like 8 years, I might have looked it over and said "I'm interested, but not for that price. I'll add it to my 'pick it up used for cheap' list."
From what I've seen/read/played of 4e, that sort of horrible layout and tiny wordcount for price is rampant at WotC these days.
I really hope that for the 5e books they start giving more content for the price.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36964 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 04:44:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I do disagree with whoever said Ed has no control over the setting and is a mere freelancer. It is pretty much a given that if Ed replies with a response to a question that his response is considered canon for the realms by all authors and by WOTC. They may not need his permission to do what they want with DnD editions, but obviously they consider him the first among equals when it comes to lore in FR.
Actually, it's canon until WotC says otherwise. Ed can say that Bahb the Fighter is a very strong human male, but if WotC decided that Bahb is actually a polymorphed mouse trying to take over the world, then that would be canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
And since he is being put in charge again for 5e changes, I expect things will get better.
I expect good things, as well. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 05:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
The result of what happened when he was not consulted was near disastrous for the realms.
Question: do we know for a fact that Ed Greenwood "wasn't consulted" for the 4E Realms?
I mean, we know he was in the loop--and had been for some time (two years, I believe)--prior to the 4E Realms announcement at GenCon, but do we really know whether or not anyone at WotC bothered to ask him his opinion?
FWIW: the 4E Realms are not the first example of WotC (and TSR before them) doing something with the Realms that Greenwood might not have done, or would have done differently.
I'm not privy to WotC's internal deliberations, nor it's communiques with freelance authors and designers, but I'd be willing to bet my house WotC knew full well what Ed (and a whole bunch of other people) thought about the changes they had in mind, and went ahead with them anyway.
I don't think there was a failure to consult. My theory is that there was a failure to listen. Which is why I'm stoked about the 5E Realms, because it's pretty clear WotC is listening (and not just to Ed, but to everyone). |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 22 Oct 2012 06:00:28 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 05:45:56
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| I mean no offense to Ed when I say this, because I highly respect him, but this kind of reminds me when authors sell the copyrights with movie producers so they can do whatever they want without consulting the author. I'm not saying it's the same, since it sounds like Ed did try and have a say, and he didn't "sell the rights". This was just an analogy. Perhaps a poor one. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 10:59:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I have not yet managed to convince myself to buy the 4e Menzo book. Well, I thought, I already have so much drow stuff from older editions, and i do not really need a book to hear about the demonweave and any 4e mechanics and 4e lore am I not going to use. I guess, I will wait buying it until i can pick it up at a discount in the secondhand market.
Actually the content in the book is quite good. I just think the word count and page count are too small.
The 'demonweave' seems to fill about 2/3 of a page in the book. The 4e time period overall is not the majority of the book, and there are no 4e game mechanics mentioned.
There's some solid information about the city, and about drow culture, yes. It does include Menzoberranzan stuff outside the 1993 release. But I would say the real Gems in this book are the bits on advice playing a drow in a drow game, and the advice on running an all drow campaign.
If you have Drow of the Underdark 3e, Underdark 3e, and Menzoberranzan 1993, you could make do without this book. If you have additional Drow books on top of that, such as the 2e or 4e underdark, or Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, or City of the Spider Queen, or Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, or the couple War of the SpiderQueen and Drow focused Dragon Magazines (302, and a couple others in the year after that) that will add more. This book would still be useful in terms of collecting much of the information you need in one place, it's also an excellent primer for any players you get who are unfamiliar with the material.
As for what I wish it had included, but it didn't:
I would have liked it if we could have gotten 1-page NPC writeups of prominent drow throughout history (not stats, but character profiles: motivations, goals, etc.) It would have been nice to see one on Gromph, Baenre, Yvonnel, and Triel, and other prominent house members. Maybe Dyrr, A Couple other Matron Mothers, Some Prominent members (including the leaders) of each academy, and after all that, then maybe some drow of the traveling NPCs from the novels (WotSQ, Lady Penitent, Starlight & Shadows, Legend of Drizzt).
I also wouldn't have minded getting some real details on some other drow cities, perhaps a page or two on each:
Sshamath, Ched Nasad, Chaulssin, Eryndlyn, Maerimydra, Sschindylryn.
Some more information on Faer'zress, Tel'Kiira, Selu'Kiira, and Kraanfhaor's Door, or the Ancient Elven Portal Network would have been cool too, but less useful than the NPC spotlights and city writeups.
But Seriously, the book is absolutely fantastic. I just wish there was more book, and I have some gripes about the publishing decisions they made. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 22 Oct 2012 11:06:45 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 11:21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I mean no offense to Ed when I say this, because I highly respect him, but this kind of reminds me when authors sell the copyrights with movie producers so they can do whatever they want without consulting the author. I'm not saying it's the same, since it sounds like Ed did try and have a say, and he didn't "sell the rights". This was just an analogy. Perhaps a poor one.
Ed has not owned the rights to the Forgotten Realms for more than 25 years. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 13:43:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I don't think there was a failure to consult. My theory is that there was a failure to listen. Which is why I'm stoked about the 5E Realms, because it's pretty clear WotC is listening (and not just to Ed, but to everyone).
The 'geography reset' (for lack of a better description) goes a long way in proving exactly this (being listened to). But keeping 'what has come before' (spellscars, time jump, and so on) also allows them to retain the newer set who came in after the Realmslore years, and who may not appreciate all the history and legend of the Realms. In essence, this time around, everyone wins. Sure, there are some other issues (beloved NPCs and so on) which may yet need to be addressed, but they're laying out a rather solid foundation on which to build.
For all my rather blunt criticism of TSR's successors, I don't think they could have done better by their Realms adherents than in the way they're going about 5th Edition. Never mind that I would have bought it, anyways - I bought 4th Edition knowing I would likely use little to none of it, after all (campaign was confined to the Sword Coast with no plans to go a-wandering). But this time, I don't have that sense of dread. I'm actually looking forward to it. A lot.
- OMH |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 16:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I do disagree with whoever said Ed has no control over the setting and is a mere freelancer. It is pretty much a given that if Ed replies with a response to a question that his response is considered canon for the realms by all authors and by WOTC. They may not need his permission to do what they want with DnD editions, but obviously they consider him the first among equals when it comes to lore in FR.
Actually, it's canon until WotC says otherwise. Ed can say that Bahb the Fighter is a very strong human male, but if WotC decided that Bahb is actually a polymorphed mouse trying to take over the world, then that would be canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
And since he is being put in charge again for 5e changes, I expect things will get better.
I expect good things, as well.
You got me there, although i suspect you know what i was getting at :p |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36964 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 17:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I do disagree with whoever said Ed has no control over the setting and is a mere freelancer. It is pretty much a given that if Ed replies with a response to a question that his response is considered canon for the realms by all authors and by WOTC. They may not need his permission to do what they want with DnD editions, but obviously they consider him the first among equals when it comes to lore in FR.
Actually, it's canon until WotC says otherwise. Ed can say that Bahb the Fighter is a very strong human male, but if WotC decided that Bahb is actually a polymorphed mouse trying to take over the world, then that would be canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
And since he is being put in charge again for 5e changes, I expect things will get better.
I expect good things, as well.
You got me there, although i suspect you know what i was getting at :p
I honestly wasn't sure. We frequently see misconceptions about Ed's relationship with TSR/WotC, so I thought it best to address that.  |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 23:50:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I really can't quite understand this perspective, sometimes. It's not my intent here to criticise the rightful opinions of other scribes [your feelings are you own on the matter], but I'm a little confused as to how one can wilfully avoid one interpretation of a particular product, but still have stacks of examples of a previous interpretation of that same product.
Han shot first. There was only one Highlander movie. There was also only one Matrix movie. And the Forgotten Realms ceased publication in 2006. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 23:57:03
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quote:
Originally posted by See
Han shot first. There was only one Highlander movie. There was also only one Matrix movie. And the Forgotten Realms ceased publication in 2006.
Actually the printing presses just fired up again this month and released hopefully the first of many great FR products to come. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 23 Oct 2012 00:18:17 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 00:12:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I have not yet managed to convince myself to buy the 4e Menzo book. Well, I thought, I already have so much drow stuff from older editions, and i do not really need a book to hear about the demonweave and any 4e mechanics and 4e lore am I not going to use. I guess, i will wait buying it until i can pick it up at a discount in the secondhand market
As previously mentioned, Menzo has 0% 4e mechanics in it. It has about 2% mechanics that are applicable to *any* edition. And the rest is all lore.
And the Demon Weave thing is such a minor topic that it can pretty much be ignored. I remember Brian James writing that section--he had very little info to go on, so he just kinda left it as "pick up this loose end if you want."
This is what I'm advocating with as much voice as I can in WotC's planning going forward: more lore, less mechanics. I would like to see the next vision of the Realms at least 90% divorced from the mechanics, so that the game design doesn't determine how things work in the setting. A little bleed over is inevitable, because you need to be able to play the game presented in the setting, but I firmly believe you should be able to play ANY edition of the game in the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Actually the printing presses just fired up again the month and released hopefully the first of many great FR products to come.
That's a rather hopeful attitude.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 00:13:43
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It's ironic. From the title and the OP, this sounds like a bitter castigation sort of thread, but a lot of it is actually extremely hopeful.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 01:21:13
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| Can someone explain to me why Ed sold ALL the rights to the Realms? I understand hindsight is 20/20, and Ed is an extremely intelligent man from what I've perceived, so I don't think he fumbled into doing it. But why didn't he procure a stronger hold on his setting? Was he really just naive at the time? Or did TSR twist his arm? Or did TSR use a sneaky little clause in the contract to gain all rights? I feel as if something is amiss. Personally, I always believed common sense would rule one hold onto their IP as best they can from "corporate greed". But many, I've noticed, seem to always find themselves entrapped in losing their creation. Which is sad. I have always been curious how he lost his setting so quickly? |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 01:49:41
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From what I understand, at the time, Ed had no interest in the sorts of commitment required to be in charge of a setting. He just wanted to use it for his own purposes and write novels, so he sold the rights to TSR.
I put this in another thread, but it's also relevant here:
Single City Adventure Paths and Regional books are what I mostly want.
If they make an FRCS, I hope its only a 64 or 96 page gazeteer, with broad information covering the races, and maybe a list of gods, but like no specifics on the individual countries. FRCS3e was just thorough enough that you could run a region without its sourcebook. Don't do that.
Give me a book that's just 'Moonsea'. Another that's just 'The Moonshae Isles', 'The Sea of Fallen Stars', 'Cormanthor', 'The Dalelands', 'The Western Heartlands', 'The Sword Coast', 'Waterdeep', 'Myth Drannor', 'Neverwinter', 'Sshamath', 'Calimport', 'Phlan', 'Silverymoon', 'Skullport'. Much like in 1e/2e. You give me a book for each country and each major city, with a minimum of game mechanics, alot of detail, a map, and covering multiple time periods, and I will likely buy them all.
And give me adventure paths, in the same basic format as the Pathfinder ones, with adventure paths generally sticking to one region, size 8-10 font, a decent amount of material, and only as many maps and statblocks as absolutely necessary, and there's a good chance I'll buy many or all of those too. And bring back PDFs. Many of us avoid bringing actual books to game sessions these days. I try to run it all with my Nexus 7 and my Laptop,
If they play their cards right they could get a couple grand from me over the next few years. If they mess it up they could get none of it.
I hope they continue to release things in a similar manner to Menzoberranzan and the new Elminster's Realms book, but I also really hope we start seeing better wordcounts and page counts again; more often.
I'm hopeful about the regional design I've heard a little about, and the fact that they are planning to fix much of the realms. I'm hopeful about the undoing of the retcons introduced in the spellplagued realms. Some of those retcons are a dealbreaker for me. I want Faerunian elves back, and I won't settle for 'Eladrin' fey and Wood Elves. I want my toys back, basically. Half-Dragons, Elves, Dragonkin, countries, etc.
But what I've heard so far, efforts are being made to un-break things. I hope they succeed, and don't fall short of the expectations they've raised.
If they succeed, I will be buying from WotC again. If they succeed in putting out content I want again, and start putting more content in the books again, I will be inclined to buy ALL the things. If they do the above AND have 90% setting 10% mechanics, I definitely will buy all the things. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 01:57:10
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I really can't quite understand this perspective, sometimes. It's not my intent here to criticise the rightful opinions of other scribes [your feelings are you own on the matter], but I'm a little confused as to how one can wilfully avoid one interpretation of a particular product, but still have stacks of examples of a previous interpretation of that same product.
Han shot first. There was only one Highlander movie. There was also only one Matrix movie. And the Forgotten Realms ceased publication in 2006.
That's a matter of perspective, and only further serves to confirm my earlier comments -- especially since I've no problem with the whole "Han Shot First" controversy, successive Highlander and Matrix films, nor the acknowledgement that the Realms is still going strong in terms of publishable material. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 02:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I really can't quite understand this perspective, sometimes. It's not my intent here to criticise the rightful opinions of other scribes [your feelings are you own on the matter], but I'm a little confused as to how one can wilfully avoid one interpretation of a particular product, but still have stacks of examples of a previous interpretation of that same product.
Han shot first. There was only one Highlander movie. There was also only one Matrix movie. And the Forgotten Realms ceased publication in 2006.
Completely off topic, but technically speaking, Han didn't shoot first. That implies Greedo actually got a shot off. |
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Reasons I will avoid 5e and 4e FR
